Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

3 Bumps

Question for LDS

I've asked on here before about the whole posthumous baptisms and all that.

But I'd like to ask again in a slightly different way. Before I was curious about how you don't view that as being beyond presumptuous as well as insulting/offensive to the dead. And the response was this act was viewed as the gift of an opportunity they may not have previously had; and they were free upon Judgement to deny it if they really wished to.

But now I'm curious about the actual Why. I mean if "Judgement Day" is a thousand year period of time in which those who survive Armageddon and the Resurrected have to decide if they really want to accept Christ and the Christian God...then why do LDS feel this is even necessary in the first place??

Answer Question
 
beachmamaof2

Asked by beachmamaof2 at 8:32 PM on Apr. 20, 2011 in Religious Debate

Level 17 (4,173 Credits)
Answers (13)
  • Let me see if I understand your question. You're asking why do baptisms need to be done at all? Or why do they need to be done now, if there is a specific time later when it will be more efficient to do them? I'll answer both, but let me know if I've missed the mark.

    Backtracking a little here, LDS believe that everyone who lived must have to opportunity to receive baptism and that the baptism must be done with a physical body, as Christ's was. Taking on the responsibilities that come with baptism lead to greater reward in the next life. So, LDS believe that baptism, personally or by proxy, must be done for everyone prior to the final judgment (which comes at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ).


    TikiWiki33

    Answer by TikiWiki33 at 7:41 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • Now, accounting for every person who has ever lived on the earth is an impossible task at present. Written genealogical records account for a small percentage of humanity. During Christ's thousand-year reign (aka, the Millennium) the genealogies of every person will be made known, and baptisms and other proxy work will be done for everyone that had previously been missed. So why don't LDS just stop doing baptisms now, if it will be relatively easy to do it later, during the Millennium? Well, firstly, we feel we've been commanded by God to start the process now. Secondly, there are some benefits that baptism will bring now to those who have already passed away (although the greatest benefits/blessings will come after the final judgment.) Thirdly, the living, those who are performing the baptisms, etc., also receive blessings by serving their fellow men and women in this way.

    TikiWiki33

    Answer by TikiWiki33 at 8:05 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • Basically yeah - I get why they'd baptize their children or new member's to their church. But I don't understand the whole concept of the proxy baptisms. In my previous questions I've learned that most LDS member's don't care that those of us who are not would find the posthumous proxy baptism to be offensive and insulting. And ok fine I disagree with it; but I can't stop them; so rather I try to understand it better; still doesn't mean I'd agree but I like to see other POV's.

    After reading that the Bible states that Judgement Day is a thousand year period in which God has set up so that people who never had the chance to hear "his word" now do have the opportunity to exercise their free will and make the choice themselves. And that all those who died prior to Armageddon have all their sins wiped clean when they die; that upon resurrection they have a clean slate to start from.

    beachmamaof2

    Comment by beachmamaof2 (original poster) at 10:23 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • That the only ones who have a 'past' are the righteous that survived Armageddon and well if they survived then obviously they don't or shouldn't have much left to worry about proving.

    Ok so then by your second reply are you saying then that LDS doesn't believe that the dead will all be resurrected and judged on their actions during the thousand year period? Revelation 20:12-13 talk about the dead being judged by their works/actions; but Romans 6:7 says that when we die we are freed from sin. Sooo what actions then if not the ones during the thousand years? And if they're only being judged by those actions; and have a thousand years to decide if they want to accept Christ and God; then yeah I totally don't get the posthumous proxy baptisms at all.

    Can you tell me in what part of the Bible you are given the instructions to do these? Not being rude; I just want to read it myself...
    beachmamaof2

    Comment by beachmamaof2 (original poster) at 10:23 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).

    Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), in particular, has claimed that this verse supports their view of baptism for the dead. In their practice, individuals go to their local Mormon temple, dress appropriately for a baptism, representatively adopt the name of a person who has died, and then the Mormon is baptized in water for that deceased person. This way, the dead person has fulfilled the requirements of salvation in the afterworld and can enjoy further spiritual benefits in the spiritual realm.
    To be continued..
    Obi.Ren.Kenobi

    Answer by Obi.Ren.Kenobi at 10:43 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

    In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

    To be continued..
    Obi.Ren.Kenobi

    Answer by Obi.Ren.Kenobi at 10:44 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

    Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.2

    To be continued..
    Obi.Ren.Kenobi

    Answer by Obi.Ren.Kenobi at 10:44 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

    Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?

    However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look.
    Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them."


    To be continued..

    Obi.Ren.Kenobi

    Answer by Obi.Ren.Kenobi at 10:45 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED.

    I -- first person singular
    you (singular) -- second person singular
    he/she/it -- third person singular
    we -- first person plural
    you (plural) -- second person plural
    they -- third person plural

    It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized."

    done..
    Obi.Ren.Kenobi

    Answer by Obi.Ren.Kenobi at 10:45 AM on Apr. 21, 2011

  • If I understand you correctly, you're asking what the LDS perspective is on when we are judged and what we are judged on? And how this correlates with Revelation 20:12-13 and Romans 6:7?

    Let me see if I can do this succinctly. Christ issues in the Millennium with the Second Coming. During this time those who have died are judged according to their actions/faith/desires up to that point. At the end of the Millennium, the earth is transformed and all take their appointed place based on how they were judged. Where the doctrines diverge is with Romans 6:7 and exactly what we are judged on.

    TikiWiki33

    Answer by TikiWiki33 at 5:17 PM on Apr. 21, 2011

Join CafeMom now to contribute your answer and become part of our community. It's free and takes just a minute.