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2 Bumps

Let's debate God and Free Will, shall we?

I have heard over and over from believers that God is perfect, he gave man free will and man chose to go against God and sin. This has never made sense to me.

No matter how much "free" will a perfect being has, if it ever makes an imperfect choice or sins, then it wasn't made perfect in the first place.

Formal perfection excludes the possibility of ever sinning. The "free" will being can only make decisions which are perfect in all senses. Either there is no such thing as sin or God didn't make man perfect.

That would lead to the conclusion that God deliberately created man imperfect so that he could have "free" will.

http://agnosticreview.com/perfection.htm

 
IhartU

Asked by IhartU at 10:05 AM on May. 10, 2011 in Religious Debate

Level 27 (31,412 Credits)
This question is closed.
Answers (145)
  • If the outcome is not determined then God cannot possibly know what choice you are going to make and thus cannot maintain a Plan for humanity, or know what choice we will make. Thus he is not all-knowing and he cannot be God according to Christian dcotrines. Which we have gone over stating his works are perfect and he knows them. The two concepts still contradict each other and cannot exist simultaneously..

    KristiS11384

    Answer by KristiS11384 at 11:17 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • If you're created in his 'image' and not a copy, then still, a perfect God created something imperfect, which a perfect being couldn't DO.

    Why is that? Why can't a perfect being create something imperfect- I don't get the reasoning behind that-

    And we will have to disagree that desire makes something imperfect- since when is desire a bad thing? To desire that my children have happy and fulfilling lives is bad? I am not understanding the reasoning-

    Remember- I am not a literalist- I do not view God as selfish in His desires or vengeful in His actions-
    soyousay

    Answer by soyousay at 11:03 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • 1)who says man is made perfect? or 2)creation is perfect? or 3)that God doesn't have human-characteristics? if we're gonna talk what is/what ain't about a biblical 'character' (that's strictly for non-believers OF ABRAHAM'S GOD), i'll need to see biblical scripture to back up these ideas. you can't discuss Captain Ahab without quoting 'Moby Dick'....

    the two sides will never compromise..its an ongoing thing. sahm could say God is imperfect all day to my notion that He is perfect. like a tennis match, that never ends.
    dullscissors

    Answer by dullscissors at 10:34 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • No matter how much "free" will a perfect being has, if it ever makes an imperfect choice or sins, then it wasn't made perfect in the first place.


    We were not made perfect- made in his image means just that-in his image- not a perfect copy of- image means similar not exact- maybe that is why its confusing to you because you are starting from a false premise?

    To desire something, anything, and require it from others to feel superior is supremely human, don't you think?

    Desire does not make you imperfect- and He does not require anything to feel superior- again- I think that is why you are confused-because you are starting with a false premise-

    I would think that if you do not believe in God/Gods/Goddesses than it would be easy to misunderstand because the belief is the basis of understanding ones own Faith- just as I can understand your lack of religious belief, but only up to a point -
    soyousay

    Answer by soyousay at 10:42 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • maiahlynn... I am not bashing and you jumping to that conclusion tells me that you FEAR looking into things too much because you might find out that what you believe doesn't hold water- no matter how much faith you put into it.
    >>>>
    We too, can come to conclusions about you based on any number of things. Your obvious anger in regard to the issue of the possibility of a God. If it wasn't touchy for you, you wouldn't be getting so defensive. Your condescension to anyone with any sort of faith, is also kind of a giveaway.
    adnilm

    Answer by adnilm at 10:47 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • To have the outcome determined goes against the nature of free will

    Agree- the outcome is not determined- He knows what is in your heart and allows you to make choices- I read the same Bible as everyone else and draw a different conclusion than some- Have you read The Shack- if not, put it on your list- you will enjoy it-
    soyousay

    Answer by soyousay at 11:10 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • I've never heard that God made man perfect. Each of his creations (man included) is made perfectly according to His plan, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect the way we see it.
    missanc

    Answer by missanc at 10:07 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • Why is that? Why can't a perfect being create something imperfect- I don't get the reasoning behind that-

    And we will have to disagree that desire makes something imperfect- since when is desire a bad thing? To desire that my children have happy and fulfilling lives is bad? I am not understanding the reasoning-

    Remember- I am not a literalist- I do not view God as selfish in His desires or vengeful in His actions-
    >>
    I think that often nonbelievers lump all believers into one pile, making it easier to address a whole. As opposed to the intricacies of faith and the very different angles at which people come at it. Understanding that not every Christian is a sola scripture adherent would involve finesse in debate.
    adnilm

    Answer by adnilm at 11:12 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • KristiS-again- you are looking at it from only the literal standpoint because that is how you can disprove it- I understand that and that is why I am not a literalist- still makes me a believer- just as you can ask 100 people what makes an American and you will get 100 different answers- you can argue one persons ideal of what an American is-but that does not make it truth to the other 99- I do honestly believe that without Faith you can never fully understand the concept of it- I respect what you have to say and you say it well-but you are only able to disprove a very narrow view of God- you and I are on the same page in rejecting that view of God but that does not mean He is not real-KWIM?
    soyousay

    Answer by soyousay at 11:27 AM on May. 10, 2011

  • Now let's take something a little more moveable such as a robot. I can make it and I can program it to make decisions when given certain choices. This does not mean the robot has free-will though because it is operating based on the preset instructions I had uploaded into it's central processing unit and the program I had written.
    >>>>>
    But you aren't God. As I said before you are presuming your limitations on God. If you aren't open to at least imagining the all encompassing power and ability, it's hard to debate and it's kind of pointless.
    adnilm

    Answer by adnilm at 12:42 PM on May. 10, 2011