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Teaching Tolerance --OR-- Not Teaching Toleranc ???

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I ran across this headline and wondered what your opinion of it is?

Do you agree with this statement or disagree with this statement?

"..banning homescool teaches tolerance? "



Obama Justice Department: Draconian Nazi-era law banning homeschooling promotes ‘tolerance’

Parents who homeschool in Germany face removal of their children, heavy fines, and even jail time.

  

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by on Jul. 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM
Replies (31-40):
hwblyf
by Bronze Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 8:23 AM
1 mom liked this

I don't see it as a slight against homeschoolers, stating that keeping kids at home teaches intolerance or whatnot.  I see it as your kids being a piece of the puzzle that helps others be more tolerant.  IF they were tolerant and understanding, my eldest would be in ps.  IF they could accept his differences, we'd be in a different place.  But tolerance isn't what is achieved in mass marketing schools, compliance is.  And I know that we all learn to be more kind and loving when we have personal interactions with those who are different from us, but we also tend to learn a lot of that in hindsight, which means that intolerance is accepted until the straw that breaks the camel's back forces us to look at whatever issue du jour and proclaim that yes, they're people, too.

celticdragon77
by on Jul. 7, 2013 at 9:13 AM
1 mom liked this

It WAS a noble cause for them to stand up for... had they stayed to do so. Americans didn't get homeschooling legalized by fleaing to other countries rather than squarely facing the fight for a cause they believed in and were demanding of. Big difference in my opinion. If they weren't down for the fight, than they should have moved PRIOR to breaking the law.

In Europe, they can more readily move about from one country to another. Somewhat similar to what we do within the USA. In Pa, my laws are strict.If they banned homeschooling OR I did not like my strict laws... I have three choices. 1) uproot my life and go to a state that has more friendly homeschool laws 2) choose not to uproot my life and follow the laws 3) say the hell with uprooting my life AND with the laws. Now, if I choose option 3, I can't then run off to Finland - a totally different continent and seek asylum. 1) The country doesn't permit that 2) I had other (more realistic) options and ignored them and now need to face the consquences of the choice that I did make.

The USA has 300 million people. The 3rd largest population. Our system is overburdened as is. We are one of few countries that has the most people trying to asylum into (USA, the UK, and Germany are the top 3). There are 44 million people forcibly displaced in the world. Those figures make it a bit harder for me to sympathize with the regretable bad choices that the German family has made. 

It is NOT the right of the USA to force any country to govern its people as how WE see fit! It is up to their people to protect and fight for their personal rights. It is an individual responsibility. 

I have zero issue with paying to support public education, despite not using it. I do however wish the system would be reformed. I wish that it was more privatized and that there was a voucher type system (or something similar) in place - where the money follows the child. The current system seems so archaic. I wish I didn't pay taxes on some of the other bs. - and I wish the richest of the country, contributed without their lobbyists and loopholes.

Obama is a freakin' puppet. To believe he has any real power is to buy the lies that keep this country divided and deceived of the truths.

Some homeschoolers are doing their children a real disservice and violating their childrens personal liberties. Hell, the schools and parents all over the country and world are doing it too. However, at least there is a chance of more exposure, the more people they are around. Not every homeschooler is doing this. But it is prevalent within the homeschooling community - and not just at the lower levels. It can be even more alarming when some of the more extreme religious ideas and censorship come into things. 

I am religious. I am a homeschooler. I do not say these things out of some hatrad of the two. I say it out of an awareness of things that I see and hear going on. I mean, it is just my perception of things. So take it or leave it. But I have a real concern about some of the things I have witnessed. I am just some girl seeking some truth and speaking up to what I see. Feel free to object and clarify... I will patiently listen and ponder other peoples thoughts.  

 

Quoting tuffymama:

I think you ladies are terribly misled about what this case is about. Yes, they violated the law in their home country. Yes, they obviously knew they violated the law. I break many laws every day because I refuse to be burdened with the yoke of laws that violate my basic human right to liberty, a right which USED to be protected by our Constitution and which our forefathers clearly established for citizens when founding our nation. I am quite sure the rest of you break laws daily, whether you know it or not, This case is important because Germany is violating personal freedom and civil rights by making and enforcing the law.

This has NOTHING to do with tolerance. The PS system, Eric Holder, Barry Dunham Davis Soetoro Obama, and the whole socialist left do not want to violate your liberties and take away your children because they can educate them better or because you are not teaching them TOLERANCE. They want your kids because there is little chance you're forcing your kids to drink the Kool-Aid on a daily basis. Wake up. That's what this is about. "They" want the dollars sucked from the taxpayers to indoctrinate your kids so They can keep their broken machine wheezing along a little longer, and breed numb-minded, Kool-Aid drunk, party-line-toeing, little voters.

Don't be blinded and dazzled by the TOLERANCE argument at the front door when the bastards are sneaking in the back door to steal your property and your kids.


Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air... Emerson 

romacox
by Silver Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 9:22 AM
1 mom liked this
There is a big debate happening in the United States today. This debate is not so much a discussion of conspiracies (or even tolerance)  as it is a difference in ideology, and need not divide us.

 

The Teachings Of Gandhi, Plato And the Founding Fathers:
The Founding Fathers (and those who support the Constitution) believed man to be much more than his animal instincts because his Creator made him so. Thus education that teaches truth, individuality, and analytical thinking were essential.

Our Founders considered an understanding of the Constitution and its history necessary for the preservation of our freedoms. We have been educated to believe that the Supreme Court is the “Keeper of the Constitution”. However Supreme Court Justice Story warned, “our cherished freedoms and Constitutional government might perish in an hour, by the folly, or corruption, or negligence of its only keepers, THE PEOPLE. if the people did not trouble to learn the history, purpose, and meaning of their own Constitution.”

History showed that when any organization became too powerful (Religions in the Crusades, war lords in the Dark Ages, Hitler, Stalin, ext), they became suppressive and tyrannical. Thus the Founding Fathers sought to limit the power of government while leaving individuals free to create unless they committed a crime (harmed another). They, like Gandhi and Plato, believed that solutions come from the people, not the government.

Freud And Bernays Taught:
The students of Freud and Bernays believe that people are basically driven by animal instincts...dumb. These four basic instincts are aggression, fear, self preservation and sex. Thus they believe the Constitution is wrong because government must manipulate (Propaganda ) and control people "for their own good".

Education, in this way of thinking, should not teach individuality and analytical thinking, but should teach one how to be a worker bee (what to think...not how to think). An understanding of the Constitution is also not advocated. Thus large class sizes and multiple choice testing makes more sense to this philosophical mentality than it does to those parents wanting their children to think as an individual "outside of the group box".

In China, workers live, eat and sleep above their place of work. They also have a very high suicide rate because some find themselves unable to conform. As a tutor I often see the stress some students experience as a result of large class sizes, and suppression of their natural individuality. But, in China, where the group is more important than the individual that is not a major concern as it might be to some here in the U.S.. For parents who want their child to be socialized, there should be that choice, but for parents who want their child taught individuality, and to think outside of the box, there should be that choice as well. :-)

It is interesting to note that today the biggest influx into the home school venue are teachers, "and one of the reasons" they give is: Class sizes have become so large that kids are taught to act like robots rather than individuals. Teachers find themselves having to teach as if a one size fits all...they are less able to individualize their curriculum.

How much has Freud and Bernays influenced American Education?

The definition for socialization: 1. a continuing process whereby an individual acquires a personal identity and learns the norms, values, behavior, and social skills appropriate to his or her social position. 2. the act or process of making socialistic (socialism): the socialization of industry.


In Early American History we were a very individualistic society, and differences in politics and religion were openly talked about. Americans valued the individual (to damage one link in the chain was to damage the whole). However many other societies valued the group above the individual (sacrificing the individual for "the greater good"/Kamikaze ).

Conclusion
There is truth in what Gandhi, the Founding Fathers, and Plato saw, and there is truth in what Freud and Bernays say. Man does have both sides. The problem with the progressive ideology is that the oligarchy themselves are people, and the animal instincts often come out  in them as well. So who are these so called "smarter people" who should rule the "dumb masses"?

Other Resources

It is a Forbes magazine article that provides the most valuable insight into its origins.  In it Mary Parker Follett, an early 20th century educator and business management consultant from Boston, is identified as being the “mother” of reinventing government theory Dans Wechsler Linden, “The mother of them all” Forbes. January 16, 1995 pages 75-76

Mary Parker Follett, The New State: Group Origination the Solution of Popular Government” originally published: (New Your: longmans, Green Co. 1918v- Reprinted by the Pennsylvania State university press 1998) page 15. The New State can be found online: http://sunsite.utk.edu/FINS/Mary_Parker_Follett/Fins-MPF-01.html

According to Follett, the solution was to eliminate the  individual as the basic unit of society and replace him with a group organizations (57) Group rights would now take the place of individual rights.  Under the old order, man was endowed with certain God given rights—under the new system the only rights that man had were those that the group would bestow upon him.

 

tuffymama
by Bronze Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 9:39 AM
Quoting celticdragon77:



Yes, it is "easy" for people to move from country to country in Europe. I personally know two families who moved from other STATES IN OUR NATION to Florida specifically because they wanted to homeschool freely. One family was being investigated in their home state and broke laws to move here, and are now in debt because their attorney here moved heaven and earth to get them out of trouble AFTER THEY MOVED. Should they be penalized for keeping their children medically safe and poviding them a better education than they would have received where they were born as a matter of coincidental geography???

I will always welcome decent, homeschooling families who want freedom to educate their children, over border jumpers and those who stay beyond visa to freeload our services and protections as they openly break down our nation from the inside, commit crimes, kill citizens, and send American dollars out of the country. It is our right and charge, not as a nation but as people who know better, to support those who come here for freedom. If that is not right and had not been the plot all along, then none of us would be here. None, save for the very few, dying, full-blooded Natives.
KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jul. 7, 2013 at 9:57 AM

I, personally HATE that article. It's completely "the sky is falling!" 

I hate that they don't even have to be accurate to get something published. All the Obama camp said was that we can not give the parents asylum because they do not qualify for it, and if they broke laws then they should be punnished. Jeez. There is nothing in Obama's politics that put him anti-homeschooling.

so I can't even comment on the hysterical title of the inaccurate article.

KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jul. 7, 2013 at 9:58 AM

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. So I don't understand having to endure the expense of travel & attorneys if they didn't break any laws.....really even in the most difficult states, they aren't that harsh.

Quoting tuffymama:

Quoting celticdragon77:



Yes, it is "easy" for people to move from country to country in Europe. I personally know two families who moved from other STATES IN OUR NATION to Florida specifically because they wanted to homeschool freely. One family was being investigated in their home state and broke laws to move here, and are now in debt because their attorney here moved heaven and earth to get them out of trouble AFTER THEY MOVED. Should they be penalized for keeping their children medically safe and poviding them a better education than they would have received where they were born as a matter of coincidental geography???

I will always welcome decent, homeschooling families who want freedom to educate their children, over border jumpers and those who stay beyond visa to freeload our services and protections as they openly break down our nation from the inside, commit crimes, kill citizens, and send American dollars out of the country. It is our right and charge, not as a nation but as people who know better, to support those who come here for freedom. If that is not right and had not been the plot all along, then none of us would be here. None, save for the very few, dying, full-blooded Natives.


tuffymama
by Bronze Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 10:08 AM
Quoting KickButtMama:



If you don't want to HS according to the dictates of arbitrary state law and instead wish to set your own curriculum, hours, days, and so on without being forced to report to a system you find anhorrent and illegal, you might find it a challenge to homeschool in some states. If you choose not to vaccinate your children AND to homeschool them, that might upset your fearmongering, state-conditioned neighbors, who can then make life extremely hard for you and even threaten to have your children forcibly removed from you. Those are great reasons to "endure" a move from one state to another. It is all determined by what an individual decides he or she can TOLERATE.
celticdragon77
by on Jul. 7, 2013 at 10:37 AM

I live in one of the most strict states for homeschoolers. I could easily bs my way through it IF I wanted to. It wouldn't do my family any good, but it is possible. 

I will agree with you on the vaccination issue. Years ago, I asked my dr about the safety vaccinations. He was very visibly upset and said that if I didn't vaccinate my children, then he would call cps on me and have the kids removed from my custody over endangering the welfare them and others. I left that doctor soon after. I did vaccinate my kids and have no regrets. But a doctor should be informative, not threatening. I do not know the laws in my state about vaccination, but if they can do that, then I have mixed feelings about it. 

Quoting tuffymama:

Quoting KickButtMama:



If you don't want to HS according to the dictates of arbitrary state law and instead wish to set your own curriculum, hours, days, and so on without being forced to report to a system you find anhorrent and illegal, you might find it a challenge to homeschool in some states. If you choose not to vaccinate your children AND to homeschool them, that might upset your fearmongering, state-conditioned neighbors, who can then make life extremely hard for you and even threaten to have your children forcibly removed from you. Those are great reasons to "endure" a move from one state to another. It is all determined by what an individual decides he or she can TOLERATE.


Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air... Emerson 

romacox
by Silver Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 10:41 AM

The debate is not really just  about tolerance, and it isn't even about Obama. This debate started in the 20th century (well before Obama) .The debate is whether or not individual parents are capable of teaching and making decisions for  their own children (vaccinations, curriculum, tolerance, religion, ext) , or if parents need an elite group of "Smart People" to make those decisions.  Folett, Carnage, Webster, Woodrow Wilson, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller   and many others said they were of the latter belief.  Thus, home school is out of the question unless it is well regulated as are public schools.  What do you think?

tuffymama
by Bronze Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 12:28 PM
2 moms liked this
Quoting romacox:

The debate is not really just  about tolerance, and it isn't even about Obama. This debate started in the 20th century (well before Obama) .The debate is whether or not individual parents are capable of teaching and making decisions for  their own children (vaccinations, curriculum, tolerance, religion, ext) , or if parents need an elite group of "Smart People" to make those decisions.  Folett, Carnage, Webster, Woodrow Wilson, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller   and many others said they were of the latter belief.  Thus, home school is out of the question unless it is well regulated as are public schools.  What do you think?




Socialism is elitism. Socialism cannot be instituted without some group of wealthy elitists claiming to know and do better because they are smarter, richer, better than the people they wish to "make equal." It is the true desire of the haves to remain exclusive haves, and to have an infinite store of drones to keep their money machine rolling. Indoctrinate the people from birth up, and they will more easily comply. Homeschooling is a threat to the endeavor because *most of us* teach our children the real history of our nation and world, train them to be free thinkers, instruct them in the ways of personal liberty and civil rights, and show them by example that hard work and self sufficiency are the keys to success, all qualities and lessons that directly contradict the goal of the elites to breed properly-voting drones. It is a sad fact that homeschooling is and will be further threatened not because we are incapable of fully educating our kids, but because our intelligent, educated, learning loving babies are THREATS to the regime.
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