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The easy way or the hard way??? ****UPDATE****

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Ok, sorry, I was MIA for a few days.   I thought I would come back and update.   I admit, some of the replies, I only had time to skim this evening.   I need to go back and re-read them later.   I appreciate the comments and concerns and even the negativity.   That's why I'm bothering to post here at all, because I belive that "iron" does in fact "sharpen iron."   It's good to hear like-minded moms share their thoughts on situations like this.

So...   here's the update:

I went ahead with this type of treatment for a couple days.   Not like calling her names or anything like that, but making it clear that by choosing to lie and sneak and hide, that she was behaving immature and had continually broken trust to the point that our "trust bank" was pretty much empty.

I followed her around when doing chores, I told her about how displeased I was having to do so instead of doing the other things I needed to do... I explained how much better she would feel inside by being trusted to do her chores and how much better it is to be trusted in what she says, too.   I didn't do the multiplication thing, because this child is a math whiz and really LOVES math... LOL!   It would have been a reward.

Anyway, like I said, I tried this at the suggestion of others that I've come to respect on here.  

After about two days of this, I pulled her aside and had a discussion.   We talked about how not listening ONCE in a while, or making mistakes ONCE in a while were normal.   None of us want to do what other people ask all the time.   However, CONSTANTLY disobeying like that and lying, it's like water dripping on a stone, it can destroy and wear away our family and our home to constantly have to follow around behind her making sure she's obeying us and participating in family life.   

I tried to create more of a discussion, but I'm sure it was more one sided.   However, I got the feeling she was thinking about it at least.

I asked her if she was wanting to be trusted again.   I asked her what it would take to BE trustworthy.   She gave me some decent answers and I agreed to let her off "watch" and give her back the trust.    She gave me big hugs and we went on with our day.

She has been in a great attitude since then, she's offered to help twice without being asked and she has not grumbled about her chores.   I know it's been a short time, but because of the improvement in her behavior, we agreed to let her spend the day at a friend's house when she got invited today.    She was elated and had lots of fun.   The family loved having her, and want her to come over again.   She made me very proud, and I told her that.

She went to bed skipping and singing.   :)

Personally, I think it was the combination of a "negative" response to her behavior combined with the heart to heart combined with the "restoration" ...  I think that's what might have worked this time.

Now, we will see if it has lasting effects.  

For some that said I reacted way to harshly for just fifteen minutes of sneaking and reading.......I don't mind she reads for 15 minutes instead of doing what I asked if it weren't a CONSTANT thing.  

What would you do if every time your child walked away from you, they just plain refused to obey anything asked of them?  You might start with a discussion... try to get into why they want to not obey.   Ok, been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.   Then what?




You may remember I've posted about my 11 yr old and lying being excessive.

Tonight, I sent them to go straighten their rooms and get in bed because we were at an activity until close to bed time.

I hear NOTHING from my eldest daughter for a while and I called her to me.   She hasn't even taken off her jacket yet.

Me:   Kaycee, stop reading, young lady (notice, I didn't even ask if she was reading..didn't put her in the position to lie to me)...

her:   What?  I wasn't reading.

Me: (with a grin, not even irritated, but in a way of, "mom knows you are doing somthing)... so... what were you doing?

her:   *pause* What you told me to do....

Me:   Which is what specifically?

her:  *pause* I was cleaning my room.

Me:  (Staring at her, KNOWING that she is telling me another lie.)    But what exactly did you just go clean up?   What specific items, because I'm not hearing any cleaning...

her:   Well, Abby (sis's) blankets are all over the floor.   (another symptom... blame)...

Me:  If they are currently all over the floor, those aren't what you were picking up, so what EXACTLY were you picking up.

Her:  *longer pause and wide eyes*   uhm... some stuff....

Me:   Kaycee, I am going to be honest and tell you that I know that you are lying.   Remember how we have talked about lying?   Are you wanting to do this hard way or the easy way? ((asked in my normal and calm voice, I'm just bolding it for effect here))  

Her:   ((Big long pause, wide eyes, batting lashes))  ...I'm not lying.

Me:   So what exactly did you clean?

Her:  *pause again*   well... uhm... there were some hangers on the floor and some other stuff.

Me:   (walking to her room and see absolutely NOTHING picked up)   Well, those hangers, there... on the floor.   Those are the ones you've spent 15 minutes now cleaning up?

Her:   *wide eyed stare*...

Me:   Well... *looking around the room*... what did you pick up?

Her:  .....nothing... 

Me:   What were you doing?

Her: .....reading.... *mumbled*


Seriously???    I didn't ASK you to admit to it.   I just told you from the get-go to stop reading and do as you were told.   You didn't have to say or do anything except choose to listen.   However, since you chose to lie... and then chose to lie again when I reminded you that lying is unacceptable and you had the choice between the hard way or the easy way....

Well.. here's your hard way...   go write me 200 sentences before bed.




by on Oct. 28, 2013 at 12:41 AM
Replies (11-20):
Leissaintexas
by Bronze Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 10:22 AM

My kids are horrible liars. They cannot get through it without the shifty eyes, the panicked look... then the guilty conscience kicks in and they break. Years ago, when they were younger, I told them that even if *I* don't know they are lying, God always knows. That really gets them. I've always tried to teach them that God is the final authority, not Mom. I find it helps them with SELF discipline, which is the whole purpose of parenting, to teach kids how to manage themselves.

KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 10:38 AM

If I had to sit down on my kids' beds everytime they are supposed to pick up their belongings, then I honestly would not be doing much else.   I have four kids.   Sitting beside them every time when they clean their rooms, do their chores, etc... just isn't reasonable.   Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?



Quoting bluerooffarm:

What were you doing while the cleaning wasn't going on?  Was it something location specific?  Like prepping for breakfast or using the bathroom?  You have some pretty situation specific conequences you could use here to show DD why lying is not acceptable instead of using writing which creates a situation where school work is a punishment.

When you sent her to her room to clean, you could have gone right along with her and sat on her bed while she cleaned.  She would have definately questioned why.  Then you get to have a conversation about how she has broken your trust bond with her lying.  Now you know ahead of time that she is not going to clean her room, she is going to read instead because she can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.  So now she doesn't get the privacy of her room.  When she proves that her lying days are in the past then she will get the priveleges that come with it.  But remind her that lying has broken trust and broken her reputation and those are things that take a loooooooong time to rebuild.

 



mem82
by Platinum Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 10:47 AM

But it sounds like you have one child, specifically, who has the issue lying. I agree with Blue. Parenting is a hands on job sometimes and yes, it can be a big ol' pain in the booty, it can be a time suck, but you are already losing time, peace, and patience and nothing you have done has helped. You are already being punished with how the household is being stressed by this issue. It's more reasonable to do it that way than to almost set up the child to lie again and again to you by asking her repeatedly to tell the truth. If you see what I mean. It's harder to admit a lie than to back track to the truth. Once the lie is told, no matter how many lines you give her, you are always going to end up having the same drawn out conversation where she will hold tight to the lie.It's instinct.

Quoting KrissyKC:

If I had to sit down on my kids' beds everytime they are supposed to pick up their belongings, then I honestly would not be doing much else.   I have four kids.   Sitting beside them every time when they clean their rooms, do their chores, etc... just isn't reasonable.   Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?



Quoting bluerooffarm:

What were you doing while the cleaning wasn't going on?  Was it something location specific?  Like prepping for breakfast or using the bathroom?  You have some pretty situation specific conequences you could use here to show DD why lying is not acceptable instead of using writing which creates a situation where school work is a punishment.

When you sent her to her room to clean, you could have gone right along with her and sat on her bed while she cleaned.  She would have definately questioned why.  Then you get to have a conversation about how she has broken your trust bond with her lying.  Now you know ahead of time that she is not going to clean her room, she is going to read instead because she can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.  So now she doesn't get the privacy of her room.  When she proves that her lying days are in the past then she will get the priveleges that come with it.  But remind her that lying has broken trust and broken her reputation and those are things that take a loooooooong time to rebuild.

 




KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 10:56 AM

I see that, which is why I wasn't asking her to admit to anything to begin with.   I just said, "Put the book away and get cleaning!"    I didn't ask her so she wouldn't be in a position to lie.    She chose to offer the lie without being asked.  

So you think that the not cleaning to begin with is the bigger problem, not the lying?  Because that's what this feels more like it addresses.   That since she won't clean her room on her own, that mom will sit and watch her clean her room.  It doesn't feel like it addresses the lying.



Quoting mem82:

But it sounds like you have one child, specifically, who has the issue lying. I agree with Blue. Parenting is a hands on job sometimes and yes, it can be a big ol' pain in the booty, it can be a time suck, but you are already losing time, peace, and patience and nothing you have done has helped. You are already being punished with how the household is being stressed by this issue. It's more reasonable to do it that way than to almost set up the child to lie again and again to you by asking her repeatedly to tell the truth. If you see what I mean. It's harder to admit a lie than to back track to the truth. Once the lie is told, no matter how many lines you give her, you are always going to end up having the same drawn out conversation where she will hold tight to the lie.It's instinct.

Quoting KrissyKC:

If I had to sit down on my kids' beds everytime they are supposed to pick up their belongings, then I honestly would not be doing much else.   I have four kids.   Sitting beside them every time when they clean their rooms, do their chores, etc... just isn't reasonable.   Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?



Quoting bluerooffarm:

What were you doing while the cleaning wasn't going on?  Was it something location specific?  Like prepping for breakfast or using the bathroom?  You have some pretty situation specific conequences you could use here to show DD why lying is not acceptable instead of using writing which creates a situation where school work is a punishment.

When you sent her to her room to clean, you could have gone right along with her and sat on her bed while she cleaned.  She would have definately questioned why.  Then you get to have a conversation about how she has broken your trust bond with her lying.  Now you know ahead of time that she is not going to clean her room, she is going to read instead because she can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.  So now she doesn't get the privacy of her room.  When she proves that her lying days are in the past then she will get the priveleges that come with it.  But remind her that lying has broken trust and broken her reputation and those are things that take a loooooooong time to rebuild.

 






mem82
by Platinum Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 11:05 AM
1 mom liked this

Not if you make it obvious that you are there because you don't trust her. That is going to burn her britches more than anything else, especially being the oldest child. You are saying by sitting there, "You are a baby that needs mommy to sit right here because you can't be trusted to be a big girl."

Make sure to annoy her while you are sitting there. Say, "Well, since I have to sit here since I know you can't be trusted to not lie about cleaning, I guess we should work on your multiplication tables. What's 9 times 8? Oh, pick up that sock, there. What's 7 times 6? I bet your friends don't have to have their moms watch them clean because they don't lie about cleaning. Their parents can trust them." ETC. Don't make it fun. Make it pissy.

Quoting KrissyKC:

I see that, which is why I wasn't asking her to admit to anything to begin with.   I just said, "Put the book away and get cleaning!"    I didn't ask her so she wouldn't be in a position to lie.    She chose to offer the lie without being asked.  

So you think that the not cleaning to begin with is the bigger problem, not the lying?  Because that's what this feels more like it addresses.   That since she won't clean her room on her own, that mom will sit and watch her clean her room.  It doesn't feel like it addresses the lying.



Quoting mem82:

But it sounds like you have one child, specifically, who has the issue lying. I agree with Blue. Parenting is a hands on job sometimes and yes, it can be a big ol' pain in the booty, it can be a time suck, but you are already losing time, peace, and patience and nothing you have done has helped. You are already being punished with how the household is being stressed by this issue. It's more reasonable to do it that way than to almost set up the child to lie again and again to you by asking her repeatedly to tell the truth. If you see what I mean. It's harder to admit a lie than to back track to the truth. Once the lie is told, no matter how many lines you give her, you are always going to end up having the same drawn out conversation where she will hold tight to the lie.It's instinct.

Quoting KrissyKC:

If I had to sit down on my kids' beds everytime they are supposed to pick up their belongings, then I honestly would not be doing much else.   I have four kids.   Sitting beside them every time when they clean their rooms, do their chores, etc... just isn't reasonable.   Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?



Quoting bluerooffarm:

What were you doing while the cleaning wasn't going on?  Was it something location specific?  Like prepping for breakfast or using the bathroom?  You have some pretty situation specific conequences you could use here to show DD why lying is not acceptable instead of using writing which creates a situation where school work is a punishment.

When you sent her to her room to clean, you could have gone right along with her and sat on her bed while she cleaned.  She would have definately questioned why.  Then you get to have a conversation about how she has broken your trust bond with her lying.  Now you know ahead of time that she is not going to clean her room, she is going to read instead because she can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.  So now she doesn't get the privacy of her room.  When she proves that her lying days are in the past then she will get the priveleges that come with it.  But remind her that lying has broken trust and broken her reputation and those are things that take a loooooooong time to rebuild.

 







jen2150
by Silver Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 11:17 AM
Lying is a hard habit to break. Keep working on her. Remember discipline is only one part. Make sure you spend time teaching and testing her. Read stories, discuss what you read, Talk to her why lying is wrong at every opportunity. Discipline lying as a seperate offence. Memorize sayings about truthfulness and repeat them often. Kids repeat behaviors because they are benefiting from it. Some kids are very strong willed. Remember that strong will help her go far as an adult. Keep on her and she will come around.
bluerooffarm
by Gold Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 12:49 PM
1 mom liked this

 Mem's advice is exactly where I was going with my advice.  Being the oldest it will really stick that she is being punished for the deceit.  Your trust is broken.

I know that sometimes it is hard to do the hands-on punishment because it feels like you are being punished too, but to me it sounds like the lying and trust issue is upsetting the family too much.  It needs dealt with.  Dealing with it is going to force you into the role of being "punished" one way or another.  Either you get to the point where you can't trust her to pick up her room (aren't you already there) and the room doesn't get cleaned.  Or you don't trust her, so you sit with her until it is completed.  In that instance you get accomplished what you wanted....the room gets cleaned.  And she also gets the message that you cannot trust her to her privacy.  Girls want privacy, and an oldest child wants privacy.  They get the message very quickly that it is their own fault when they shatter the trust-bond and it ruins their privacy.

Also to address the questions you asked me.... Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?

Discipline is one of those tricky words that have old/archaic meanings and newer meanings.  When I use the term "discipline" I typically mean 1) instruction and 2) self-control.  So I want them to learn discipline (self-control) and I try not to use punishment to instruct them in self-control.  I see the sentence writing as a punishment (one that has many unintended ramifications).  I see the sitting on her bed as instruction.  Since there is only one child giving you the lying problem then I would use my presence to instruct her into the discipline I want for her.  Reminding her that lying got her into this situation because if she hadn't lied you would not be sitting there.  She will internalize the want to tell the truth because the consequence to lying is breaking the trust and breaking the trust means that you are going to oversee the little responsibilities and that reduces the priveleges she has (the privacy, the ability to take her time and do things her own way).

Quoting mem82:

Not if you make it obvious that you are there because you don't trust her. That is going to burn her britches more than anything else, especially being the oldest child. You are saying by sitting there, "You are a baby that needs mommy to sit right here because you can't be trusted to be a big girl."

Make sure to annoy her while you are sitting there. Say, "Well, since I have to sit here since I know you can't be trusted to not lie about cleaning, I guess we should work on your multiplication tables. What's 9 times 8? Oh, pick up that sock, there. What's 7 times 6? I bet your friends don't have to have their moms watch them clean because they don't lie about cleaning. Their parents can trust them." ETC. Don't make it fun. Make it pissy.

Quoting KrissyKC:

I see that, which is why I wasn't asking her to admit to anything to begin with.   I just said, "Put the book away and get cleaning!"    I didn't ask her so she wouldn't be in a position to lie.    She chose to offer the lie without being asked.  

So you think that the not cleaning to begin with is the bigger problem, not the lying?  Because that's what this feels more like it addresses.   That since she won't clean her room on her own, that mom will sit and watch her clean her room.  It doesn't feel like it addresses the lying.

 

 

Quoting mem82:

But it sounds like you have one child, specifically, who has the issue lying. I agree with Blue. Parenting is a hands on job sometimes and yes, it can be a big ol' pain in the booty, it can be a time suck, but you are already losing time, peace, and patience and nothing you have done has helped. You are already being punished with how the household is being stressed by this issue. It's more reasonable to do it that way than to almost set up the child to lie again and again to you by asking her repeatedly to tell the truth. If you see what I mean. It's harder to admit a lie than to back track to the truth. Once the lie is told, no matter how many lines you give her, you are always going to end up having the same drawn out conversation where she will hold tight to the lie.It's instinct.

Quoting KrissyKC:

If I had to sit down on my kids' beds everytime they are supposed to pick up their belongings, then I honestly would not be doing much else.   I have four kids.   Sitting beside them every time when they clean their rooms, do their chores, etc... just isn't reasonable.   Besides, who am I diciplining?  Me or the child?

 

 

Quoting bluerooffarm:

What were you doing while the cleaning wasn't going on?  Was it something location specific?  Like prepping for breakfast or using the bathroom?  You have some pretty situation specific conequences you could use here to show DD why lying is not acceptable instead of using writing which creates a situation where school work is a punishment.

When you sent her to her room to clean, you could have gone right along with her and sat on her bed while she cleaned.  She would have definately questioned why.  Then you get to have a conversation about how she has broken your trust bond with her lying.  Now you know ahead of time that she is not going to clean her room, she is going to read instead because she can no longer be trusted to do the right thing.  So now she doesn't get the privacy of her room.  When she proves that her lying days are in the past then she will get the priveleges that come with it.  But remind her that lying has broken trust and broken her reputation and those are things that take a loooooooong time to rebuild.

 

 

 


 

 


 

kirbymom
by Sonja on Oct. 28, 2013 at 1:25 PM
I have done the same thing. Definitely frustrating.
TidewaterClan
by on Oct. 28, 2013 at 1:52 PM
1 mom liked this

Mem and Blue have wonderful advice.  The only other thing I'm personally throwing in is that I always hate to punish reading, research, etc.  I know it ended in a lie but I have a similar situation here.  We've been studying the branches of government and are holding elections next week.  My youngest is running against our big dog for President, and the oldest against the little dog for State Senator.  I've had numerous times this past week when the oldest has grabbed the pc to research what senators do, and to work on her PowerPoint presentation (the little dog really needs to get cracking on his!).  The first time I asked her what she was doing she replied I told her she could work on it.  I let her know that was AFTER she'd helped with laundry and cleaning.  Then I calmly asked for the pc, and sent her to the dryer.  Now I just calmly put my hand out for the pc, with no words spoken, and she gives it to me and immediately springs up to do whatever she was supposed to instead.

I'd choose a route where she doesn't even have the opportunity to lie (asking for her book until chores are done) so she understands respect and chores come first, but reading is still important.

KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 28, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Thank you ladies, I am thinking a lot about what you all say.    I will consider changing my responses to these situations, because obviously what I've been doing just isn't effective.

We probably have to go back and re-teach some character traits.   Our first two years of HSing, we hit big on character.   Now that the older two are more into academics, I run out of time in the day to get to everything I want.


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