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The easy way or the hard way??? ****UPDATE****

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Ok, sorry, I was MIA for a few days.   I thought I would come back and update.   I admit, some of the replies, I only had time to skim this evening.   I need to go back and re-read them later.   I appreciate the comments and concerns and even the negativity.   That's why I'm bothering to post here at all, because I belive that "iron" does in fact "sharpen iron."   It's good to hear like-minded moms share their thoughts on situations like this.

So...   here's the update:

I went ahead with this type of treatment for a couple days.   Not like calling her names or anything like that, but making it clear that by choosing to lie and sneak and hide, that she was behaving immature and had continually broken trust to the point that our "trust bank" was pretty much empty.

I followed her around when doing chores, I told her about how displeased I was having to do so instead of doing the other things I needed to do... I explained how much better she would feel inside by being trusted to do her chores and how much better it is to be trusted in what she says, too.   I didn't do the multiplication thing, because this child is a math whiz and really LOVES math... LOL!   It would have been a reward.

Anyway, like I said, I tried this at the suggestion of others that I've come to respect on here.  

After about two days of this, I pulled her aside and had a discussion.   We talked about how not listening ONCE in a while, or making mistakes ONCE in a while were normal.   None of us want to do what other people ask all the time.   However, CONSTANTLY disobeying like that and lying, it's like water dripping on a stone, it can destroy and wear away our family and our home to constantly have to follow around behind her making sure she's obeying us and participating in family life.   

I tried to create more of a discussion, but I'm sure it was more one sided.   However, I got the feeling she was thinking about it at least.

I asked her if she was wanting to be trusted again.   I asked her what it would take to BE trustworthy.   She gave me some decent answers and I agreed to let her off "watch" and give her back the trust.    She gave me big hugs and we went on with our day.

She has been in a great attitude since then, she's offered to help twice without being asked and she has not grumbled about her chores.   I know it's been a short time, but because of the improvement in her behavior, we agreed to let her spend the day at a friend's house when she got invited today.    She was elated and had lots of fun.   The family loved having her, and want her to come over again.   She made me very proud, and I told her that.

She went to bed skipping and singing.   :)

Personally, I think it was the combination of a "negative" response to her behavior combined with the heart to heart combined with the "restoration" ...  I think that's what might have worked this time.

Now, we will see if it has lasting effects.  

For some that said I reacted way to harshly for just fifteen minutes of sneaking and reading.......I don't mind she reads for 15 minutes instead of doing what I asked if it weren't a CONSTANT thing.  

What would you do if every time your child walked away from you, they just plain refused to obey anything asked of them?  You might start with a discussion... try to get into why they want to not obey.   Ok, been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.   Then what?

You may remember I've posted about my 11 yr old and lying being excessive.

Tonight, I sent them to go straighten their rooms and get in bed because we were at an activity until close to bed time.

I hear NOTHING from my eldest daughter for a while and I called her to me.   She hasn't even taken off her jacket yet.

Me:   Kaycee, stop reading, young lady (notice, I didn't even ask if she was reading..didn't put her in the position to lie to me)...

her:   What?  I wasn't reading.

Me: (with a grin, not even irritated, but in a way of, "mom knows you are doing somthing)... so... what were you doing?

her:   *pause* What you told me to do....

Me:   Which is what specifically?

her:  *pause* I was cleaning my room.

Me:  (Staring at her, KNOWING that she is telling me another lie.)    But what exactly did you just go clean up?   What specific items, because I'm not hearing any cleaning...

her:   Well, Abby (sis's) blankets are all over the floor.   (another symptom... blame)...

Me:  If they are currently all over the floor, those aren't what you were picking up, so what EXACTLY were you picking up.

Her:  *longer pause and wide eyes*   uhm... some stuff....

Me:   Kaycee, I am going to be honest and tell you that I know that you are lying.   Remember how we have talked about lying?   Are you wanting to do this hard way or the easy way? ((asked in my normal and calm voice, I'm just bolding it for effect here))  

Her:   ((Big long pause, wide eyes, batting lashes))  ...I'm not lying.

Me:   So what exactly did you clean?

Her:  *pause again*   well... uhm... there were some hangers on the floor and some other stuff.

Me:   (walking to her room and see absolutely NOTHING picked up)   Well, those hangers, there... on the floor.   Those are the ones you've spent 15 minutes now cleaning up?

Her:   *wide eyed stare*...

Me:   Well... *looking around the room*... what did you pick up?

Her:  .....nothing... 

Me:   What were you doing?

Her: .....reading.... *mumbled*

Seriously???    I didn't ASK you to admit to it.   I just told you from the get-go to stop reading and do as you were told.   You didn't have to say or do anything except choose to listen.   However, since you chose to lie... and then chose to lie again when I reminded you that lying is unacceptable and you had the choice between the hard way or the easy way....

Well.. here's your hard way...   go write me 200 sentences before bed.

by on Oct. 28, 2013 at 12:41 AM
Replies (51-53):
by on Nov. 4, 2013 at 11:59 AM
1 mom liked this

Mem, you are the only person being aggressive.

I have no issues with you.

Quoting mem82:

I refuse to get into an argument with you. I do laugh at anyone including you, who thinks that the punishment I suggest is extreme. It's not. Nothing more to say on the subject.

 Now, I realize that you have plenty of negative energy towards me and obviously enough time to indulge in it with your passive aggressive *not pointing any fingers* replies. I won't be playing along with you, today, because, quite plainly, I have better things to do than watch you go off half cocked the way you have a few other times. It really isn't all that interesting to be perfectly honest. Let's just agree to disagree and go back to avoiding each other because we both know we don't rub together well.  I have big girl undies on. Do you?

Quoting celticdragon77:

Krissy seems very sweet natured - or at least I sense no mean spirit nature from her (and I know at least few others feel the same way). 

She comes in here for help repeatedly. Her methods are clearly NOT working.

You stand behind giving her more extreme suggestions than she is already using. 

You now you are "rolling on the floor laughing" that someone mentions that your advice to this family is not only ILLOGICAL but MEAN SPIRITED for the child.

How am NOT surprised that you find this funny?! Oh wait, because logic and experience of dealing with you has taught me better. 

...and NO your way (the example given) is NEVER the APPROPRIATE way. 

No one thinks anyone is perfect mem. People are simply trying to help someone. Many of us have mentioned that we dont have all the answers for her and that she needs family counseling ... and that many of us had to use this kind of assistance with parenting. 

However, I DO say that anything that shames or in any way demeans a child IS THE WRONG WAY! I will never be apologetic for that and I will ALWAYS stand behind it.  

Quoting mem82:

I stand by my suggested punishment, I agree that counseling may help and I don't just reject the idea that my suggestion is in anyway abusive, I am rolling around on the floor laughing my head off that someone would consider it abusive. I don't think that I am a perfect parent, but I am in no way abusive. 8) Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. My style may not work with your kids, and that's okay. I don't make the mistake of assuming that my way is the only way. I hope everyone can remember that no one is perfect and that there is no one way to deal with problems.

by on Nov. 4, 2013 at 12:21 PM
1 mom liked this

ANYONE here who thinks that using these types of methods are acceptable parenting METHODS. It is NOT! Don't take MY word for it, PLEASE go speak to a TRAINED family counselor and explore more effective parenting methods.

Call me half cocked or any other demeaning word you can think of for feeling passionate about this topic. I experienced a really bad childhood and issues like these hit a sensitive spot within me.

I have remained respectful but honest.

I never mean any ill towards anyone here - including you mem.

by on Nov. 4, 2013 at 12:36 PM

1.     I think you are blending several people's comments and directing it all onto me.   I've never put my son in time out all day.   I did not degrade my child verbally.  I did not sit over top of her and tell her that she is not as good as her friends.   I did not make her do math problems.   I DID rush her a little and didn't let her perform the tasks at her own leisure and time frame, however, I felt it was a cause effect thing because of needing me to take my time away from other things the family needs to focus on her disobedience.

2.     I think you are reflecting your poor childhood experiences onto our situation, too.   My child isn't in foster care, has a stable home, is loved through and through, and is given a lot of time/ attention/ encouragement.   They each have a date night with us each month and we do a lot of family game nights and time together. 

3.   You misunderstood the real problem.   I didn't want to make a point that sleep was important.  I wanted to make a point that honesty and obedience are important.  Yes, she was reading instead of cleaning.    (cleaning before bed was necessary, yes.)

4.    I disagree with the Doctor Spock style approach of just discussing and reasoning and never really disciplining.   If you have a child that makes wholesome choices by just discussing and reasoning, terrific, but not all of mine do.  I believe a child should be held accountable when they disobey.   I also don't believe telling her about her poor behavior and supervising her is torture or torment.    

5.   Yes I am more strict than you are, however, being a strict parent doesn't make you a child abuser.   It sounds to me like you are still struggling with your past.   I was abused as a kid, too, and yes... I'm not always the most confident mom because I'm always doubting my decisions.

Quoting celticdragon77:

If I knew my child had an issue that caused her to lie a lot - I would first, try to figure out why. At a certain age it is considered by most specialists as a normal stage, beyond that stage, it is commonly done out of distress / fear. I would want to evaluate myself, to see if I was playing a part in that. I would even go to a few sessions with a family counselor (not a psychiatrist, unless referred to one) and they would be able to help find good healthy ways to deal with the issue. 

I do not think that any counselor would recommend sitting over the child and constantly being "pissy" with the child (since my own words are being taken out of context). I do not believe negative energy being directed at the child helps the situation - especially where lieing is concerned. It will create more nervous energy within the child, which would likely cause more lieing (if not even WORSE issues). 

The childs ORIGINAL offense was that she read instead of going to sleep. It was not that she lied or that she was supposed to clean her room (in the original post you NEVER stated that she was supposed to clean her room). Cleaning was just a lie she used to explain WHY she wasnt in bed as you expected her to be. 

Your main goal was to make sure she went to bed. You wanted to make the point that sleep is important and you also expect that when you say "go to bed", that she do it. THAT IS A FAIR REQUEST.

The lie likely needed handled separately and likely not that night. Maybe not at all except to get a counselor involved since this is an ONGOING issue that OBVIOUSLY has NOT been RESOLVED.

The reading at bedtime could have simply been handled by taking the book, allowing time every night to read, a comment that you were disappointed that she did not do what what you asked.

It was bedtime, everyone is tired and at a weaker state (mentally and emotionally).

I feel like the lesson was lost by making her stay up even later to write 200 sentences.

It isn't even just that this post along with others by you seem to reflect an overly strict parenting style that is causing your child to act out by lieing - and possibly going to cause further issues within her.

It was also the fact that you homeschool and punished her by writing 200 sentences before she was allowed to go to bed for an offense that ORIGINALLY was that she was reading 15mins past bedtime.

There has to be a psychology to homeschooling to consider. These kids are made to stay at home to learn. They see other kids go to school to learn. Even if you explain your reasons... they are still processing that in their own way. It concerns me when anything "educational" is used as a form of punishment. Everything is so merged together: home, school, parent, teacher... and when you start mixing punishments and school work... I think you end up sending very confusing messages to your child.

Sitting on the bed verbally antagonizing a child about how they arent as good as their friends and then asking what 7X6 is and then telling they missed picking up a sock... THAT IS A FORM OF BULLYING A CHILD, IT IS WRONG!!! I DONT CARE HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU GET TO TELL YOU IT IS OKAY. IT IS NOT OKAY!!! It is NOT AN ACCEPTABLE form of parenting. ANY family counselor would tell you as much! 

Kids WANT to please. They also have their own desires and can wander with them. So we have set voundaries but we also have to leave room to allow them to wander. If you understand and respect this within them, they will understand and respect what it is that your role is as well. And with each year (even long past childhood), we all grow richer in the understanding and respect for what it was that our parents were TRYING to do. 

I understand that you are viewing this on the terms of not wanting to be too relaxed in parenting. However, I would say that I have seen your philosophy MANY times and I urge you to explore other philosophys to parenting. A family counselor can help with this.

I grew up in foster care. I was severely mistreated and had no good example of good parenting. I ended up pregnant by 19 and was not on any level where a person should be to be an effective parent. Luckily, in some ways I was very strong and wise (in other ways I was VERY fragile and foolish). It was only recently that I decided to get family counseling because of the divorce and other things I was personally still needed to just talk to someone about from my own past. Some of the moms on here can even tell you - I was VERY relunctant to seek counseling. Being strong is what got me through my life and I saw seeking help as a sign of weakness that I could not tolerate within myself. Not that you are experiencing that persay. Just sharing a little of where I have been. 

I am not trying to be a jerk to ANYONE in this group. Certain thing said in this group though, some of the parenting styles, they really are hard for me to hear. Maybe it just seems weird but I cried when I read the post where the son was stood in a corner ALL DAY for not doing what was "deemed" as acceptable work... and when he cried and begged to go back to public school. Some posts here are CHILD ABUSE. No child would be ALLOWED to be treated like that in public school. Teachers are NOT allowed to stand over a child and watch everything they do and make the child recite facts while being told they are not as good as the kid next to them and made to clean. THAT WOULD GET A TEACHER IN TROUBLE. Some of you, your parenting is worse than if you sent your child back to public school!!! Some of you are the reason that I even wonder if homeschooling should be legal. 

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