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Mem and Blue.... I tried it your way, I think... (anyone else welcome)

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She did it again yesterday.    My younger daughter was itching to go ride her two wheeler (just learned), so I trusted the older one (Kaycee, the subject of our conversation) to study for her Bible Quizzing competition for 20-30 minutes while taking the younger one out.

She snuck on the internet and played games instead.   Which is actually a good thing because it gave me the opportunity to try parenting the way you suggested.   I'm sure I wasn't perfect about it and all, but here's what I did.

I went ahead and discussed trusting her to do what was expected and how she had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey.   Then, I spent the whole evening following her around and staying ontop of her.   She really hated it!   I kept nagging her to move faster.   Example, "I really don't want to have to watch you do such and such, so move it... double time.   You have the freedom to move at your own pace when you aren't wasting my time."   Then I would prod he rmore and more... not allowing her to sit down to fold socks, for example.  "Nope, sorry, you can match them faster standing up."   And I just stared openly at her... hard... (not angry stare, but a VERY CLOSE OBSERVANT stare)... she really disliked being treated that way.

Then, I put her to bed when the baby went to bed and explained that babies and toddlers go to bed early and the parents get to relax in the evening.  Since she was choosing to not act her age by refusing to do as asked, then she would be going to bed with the baby.   She has to sit by me all the time, and everything she does right now has to be supervised.

She HATES it.

Then, FFWd...

(there's more)..

Today, started out OK, we did school like normal, etc...  Then, while I was teaching her sister kindergarten (after having told them, finish science, math, and practice choir)... she put her school work away and started reading a book instead.   I failed to notice because the living room is somewhat attached to the kitchen/dining, but not entirely.   I began to cook while finishing up with kindy and taking care of baby... and I notice... hey... Kaycee is reading.

(really felt like hitting my head on the wall, but again.. .this is her pushing her boundaries...)

So, we started with the whole supervision thing all over again (really cracked down and made her rush through chores and such)...  She ended up not getting lunch before choir practice because of not having practiced choir by lunch time... and then didn't have time before having to leave for choir.   I intentionally had it ready and waiting, because it wasn't my fault, it was a consequence of having read instead of doing what was told.    

Also, later, when they got home, we had planned a night of halloween cartoons, pumpkin carving, etc...  I wouldn't let her use a knife.   I told her since I had to supervise her so much, that I wouldn't trust an irresponsible toddler with a knife, so therefore I guess she couldn't use one and that I would carver her pumpkin instead.   Again, I followed her all over the house while making her do chores, (double time and MY way instead of her own)... I gave her privacy to actually undress and get in the shower, but then I stood in the bathroom instructing her HOW to shower properly and quickly without dawdling... then gave her 1:30 seconds to get out and get dressed (giving her privacy again) and then supervised brushing her teeth... 

I felt like I was a prison guard.   Really, I hated it... it was terrible.   I think it was just as hard on me.

DH was taking care of the other kids, dishing up food and getting the movie up and ready... so I could focus on JUST her.    I even sat about six inches away from her while she ate and just stared.   If she slowed down, I would prompt her to keep eating or she could throw it away.   I know she had to be hungry.

Anyway, we ended up putting her to bed around 6:40...   Even an hour before the baby.   Again, I discussed that I really didn't like having to watch her so closely, but she was consistantly doing the exact opposite of what she is asked when our backs are turned.   I told her to get used to this because it wasn't going to just go away in the morning.   She cried hard over that one.

Here's some extra details...  Last summer, she shoplifted.    Later, she broke into the fenced back yard of a neighbors house because the 15 yr old brother of her friend convinced her to (while he tried to get into the back door)...  

We THOUGHT we dealt with each of these issues.   So I know this has to be effective.   If not, I'm really going to be in for a wild ride with this child, and I'm running out of options.

I say all this to say thank you ladies... I really hope this "well I guess you can't be trusted and must be constantly supervised" thing works...




 


by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 2:16 AM
Replies (11-20):
KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM

She is 11.

I don't know what teaching style.... we teach to all our senses (hearing, visual, touch, etc..)   We let them have voice and interest in the direction we teach, however, we aren't unschoolers.  Rather ecclectic in our choice of curriculum.

The schedule is flexible and changes every day.   There is a basic routine in place that includes "house work" (chores for all of us), school, and extra curriculars. 

I forget what book, but it was a fiction book.   This child will read any story you put in front of her.  She would PREFER to read a story than watch TV, play with friends, or anything really.   She won't read non-fiction by choice.... any non-fiction has to be assigned.  Once assigned she is fine with it and will get into it, but it has to be some one else's idea.

The games were things like games for girls (dress up a fashion doll)...

Religion?  It's hard to say since it's in everything that we do.   However, the specific quizzing thing is a group she belongs to on Sunday mornings.   She was in it last year and chose to continue this year.   At first, she backed out because the other girl that was her age moved away, but when a couple other girls joined, they allowed her back in as long as she committed to the year.    Other than trying to help them practice by putting it in their school day, I try to let this be theirs... not mine.    I DO ask them to study (usually for about 15-20 minutes at a time once or twice a day when we can.  Realistically, they get 2-4 days of study in every week.)

Her grades???  I have only started keeping a few grades this year.   Math and English and social studies she gets almost perfect in all her tests and quizzes.   However, any daily work is sloppy, half attempted, etc...

The subject she is the best at??   Hmm... she is extremely math and science oriented, but she is good with the understanding of grammar.   There's very little that she actually does that she doesn't grasp and understand. 

My other kids are 9, 5, and 1.    She is the eldest.

Other possibly pertinent information.   She peed and pooped her pants until she was almost ten, she learned to ride a two wheeler sort of at 7, got scared and never would get on a bike again.  She only just re-learned how to ride one this year (at 11) because her sister and brother were riding a lot.  

She is a very awkward child, doesn't "fit in her skin" if that makes sense.   Clumsy, and is fearful of a lot of social situations, etc... in fact, her struggles were a big part of WHY we pulled them out of public school.   She was suffering from severe social anxiety and stress.   She is MUCH better now, and except for the behavior problems we are having, she is better about who she is and has started getting much better socially.    She participates in clubs and groups, has friends that she sees on a sorta regular basis, etc.



Quoting PurpleCupcake:

I see a pattern here..but I have a few questions.

How old?

What is your teaching style for her?

What is your schedule like?

What was she reading when you caught her? What book?

What games was she playing on the computer when you caught her?

How is the bible/religious stuff you do taught during the day for her? How much time is spent on it?

What are her grades like?

What subject is she best at?

How old are your other kids? 



KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 30, 2013 at 11:45 AM

Yes, I think in most situations just camly and quietly removing the distraction is fine and redirect back to work. 

This, though, is more of a everytime my back is turned, she does wrong.   Everything from putting away dirty dishes so she doesn't have to wash them, to hiding our laundry under the steps in the basement, to lying about getting her stuff done, to bringing up dirty clothes again so she doesn't get caught for having hid them in the first place....  

She has lit fires in her room, on the back porch, etc... like I said before, she shoplifted, she broke into some one else's back yard, she lies VERY well... too well.  

She peed and pooped her pants until she was almost 10 when we finally made her turn her underwear into her father every night and she had to sign out for another pair the next day (because she was always hiding poop pants all over the place.)   She had a crush on a boy and they were outside playing.  She pooped herself because she didn't want to stop playing to come inside to go.   She sat out there still playing with him stinking like poop until I came outside to ask her a question and smelled it.   I sent the boy home and she threw a ROYAL fit.

These aren't just a matter of gently removing the distraction and redirecting.   This is every time my back is turned she vehemently does the opposite.


Quoting TidewaterClan:

First off, your lion looks super!  

Here are my thoughts (for what they're worth).  If your daughter gets in a lot of trouble for reading or playing computer games it may not be that big a leap, in her mind, to break into the neighbor's yard or shoplift.  My own girls and their friends all do the same (on the games of course).  I just gently take away the pc or book until my daughters are done with chores or studies, then give them back.  My older daughter was so bad with her iPod for awhile that I took it away then completely forgot where I put it for a month.  We finally found it on top of the refrigerator.  She puts it away immediately now when I ask her to, LOL.  

My advice is to let the punishment fit the crime, especially as she moves into her teen years (she's 11?).  That way the communication between the two of you stays open, and she never feels that she can't talk to you.

Lastly, does she have any free time that's just hers during the day?  Do the kids have a recess in the middle where they can 'turn off' for awhile?  If not, are there any activities she doesn't enjoy that could be cut out?  It's so important for everyone to just have some down time (mindless video games, reading, painting, whatever).  She may honestly need that, and feel that sneaking it in is her only option.




paganbaby
by Silver Member on Oct. 30, 2013 at 12:10 PM

Wow...that looks amazing!

Quoting KrissyKC:

This is what I carved out of her pumkin, though... does it look like a lion like it's supposed to???   I don't have a pic of it lit yet on my phone.    I've never "carved" a pumkin before.   I always just cut out eyes, nose, mouth, etc...   but this time, I actually tried something different and artsy.



Lilypie - Personal pictureLilypie Breastfeeding tickers

PurpleCupcake
by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 12:29 PM

This is what I wish someone had told me when my now 13 year old daughter was 10! 


Ok, first I would change up discipline strategy. Nagging and staying on top of her is only going to drive you insane! If she is caught doing something she is not supposed to be doing, take that  away for the day. Caught reading a book? Take the book away...don't nag and then choose to bed her to bed early for punishment. Didn't finish practice choir before lunch? Take the choir away, not the lunch. In essence, make the punishment fit the crime.  And you want the punishment to follow the crime immediately. If you can't take something away...use time outs instead. 10 to 15 minutes of staring at a wall does wonders sometimes. 


Next, use your built in mommy guilt power (you were given the gift when you had your first child). Instead of yelling, nagging, pulling your hair out....simply say..."I'm so disappointed in your behavior"...throw in a little silent treatment if necessary. 

Then negotiate...don't dictate. With the hair brushing problem. "I would like you to brush your hair twice a day, everyday"...."but I'm willing to negotiate, how about once a day in the morning?"    "I would like you to read more non fiction, but I know you like fiction. How about I pick a nonfiction then when you are finished you can pick what you like".

Make rules clear, simple and logical. Write them on a piece of paper on the refrigerator if you like. Explain the rules and why you made the rule. "No eating in the living room because I don't want a mess on the carpet". 

It really sounds like to me that this child craves control in her life. Which is why her behavior got worse when you took more control away. At that age they want independence and clearly defined boundaries. BUT...I get why youre hesitant because of her past mistakes. However, the simple truth is...that is how kids learn about boundaries, when they mess up. Unfortunately as moms we have to be quick to forgive and forget (I know, I know...that is hard to do!). 

Start giving her more freedom...She will like the taste if it and she will want more. Yes! She will lie again. She will mess up that freedom. Expect it, it is a guarantee. Give her a logical consequence and move on. I'm sure you have tried giving more freedom before, but when she messed up did she ever really get that freedom back?

Set reasonable limits

Be consistent

Reward good and bad behavior

Be patient (this will not get better overnight)

Use discussion & listen to/validate her opinions

At the end if the day relax, relax, relax. Take a bubble bath, read...do something. The more stressed you are, the more likely you are to react badly to her misbehaving. Cool, calm, collected.


Just my measly 2 cents. 


PurpleCupcake
by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 12:32 PM
1 mom liked this

Ok, this is a bit more extreme than I thought. Has she seen a psychiatrist?

Quoting KrissyKC:

Yes, I think in most situations just camly and quietly removing the distraction is fine and redirect back to work. 

This, though, is more of a everytime my back is turned, she does wrong.   Everything from putting away dirty dishes so she doesn't have to wash them, to hiding our laundry under the steps in the basement, to lying about getting her stuff done, to bringing up dirty clothes again so she doesn't get caught for having hid them in the first place....  

She has lit fires in her room, on the back porch, etc... like I said before, she shoplifted, she broke into some one else's back yard, she lies VERY well... too well.  

She peed and pooped her pants until she was almost 10 when we finally made her turn her underwear into her father every night and she had to sign out for another pair the next day (because she was always hiding poop pants all over the place.)   She had a crush on a boy and they were outside playing.  She pooped herself because she didn't want to stop playing to come inside to go.   She sat out there still playing with him stinking like poop until I came outside to ask her a question and smelled it.   I sent the boy home and she threw a ROYAL fit.

These aren't just a matter of gently removing the distraction and redirecting.   This is every time my back is turned she vehemently does the opposite.


Quoting TidewaterClan:

First off, your lion looks super!  

Here are my thoughts (for what they're worth).  If your daughter gets in a lot of trouble for reading or playing computer games it may not be that big a leap, in her mind, to break into the neighbor's yard or shoplift.  My own girls and their friends all do the same (on the games of course).  I just gently take away the pc or book until my daughters are done with chores or studies, then give them back.  My older daughter was so bad with her iPod for awhile that I took it away then completely forgot where I put it for a month.  We finally found it on top of the refrigerator.  She puts it away immediately now when I ask her to, LOL.  

My advice is to let the punishment fit the crime, especially as she moves into her teen years (she's 11?).  That way the communication between the two of you stays open, and she never feels that she can't talk to you.

Lastly, does she have any free time that's just hers during the day?  Do the kids have a recess in the middle where they can 'turn off' for awhile?  If not, are there any activities she doesn't enjoy that could be cut out?  It's so important for everyone to just have some down time (mindless video games, reading, painting, whatever).  She may honestly need that, and feel that sneaking it in is her only option.












TidewaterClan
by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 12:42 PM
2 moms liked this
Yep, exactly Krissy. My oldest would stare, literally, for an hour at a math problem without trying it or moving on to the next then returning when I was free. I talked to our pediatrician about that & other issues, and we started seeing a counselor. Now we've added in a psychiatrist because we finally realized she has severe OCD and was getting stuck. She has other symptoms too (obsessing about using the pc is one), but we just didn't realize it.

I strongly recommend talking to a psychiatrist/your pediatrician, etc. She very well may be acting out, but she could easily have a medical condition that therapy & the right medication would greatly help. The sooner she gets treated (if needed) the better her life & yours - I promise! - will be. It doesn't hurt to ask & have her evaluated.


Quoting PurpleCupcake:

Ok, this is a bit more extreme than I thought. Has she seen a psychiatrist?

Quoting KrissyKC:

Yes, I think in most situations just camly and quietly removing the distraction is fine and redirect back to work. 

This, though, is more of a everytime my back is turned, she does wrong.   Everything from putting away dirty dishes so she doesn't have to wash them, to hiding our laundry under the steps in the basement, to lying about getting her stuff done, to bringing up dirty clothes again so she doesn't get caught for having hid them in the first place....  

She has lit fires in her room, on the back porch, etc... like I said before, she shoplifted, she broke into some one else's back yard, she lies VERY well... too well.  

She peed and pooped her pants until she was almost 10 when we finally made her turn her underwear into her father every night and she had to sign out for another pair the next day (because she was always hiding poop pants all over the place.)   She had a crush on a boy and they were outside playing.  She pooped herself because she didn't want to stop playing to come inside to go.   She sat out there still playing with him stinking like poop until I came outside to ask her a question and smelled it.   I sent the boy home and she threw a ROYAL fit.

These aren't just a matter of gently removing the distraction and redirecting.   This is every time my back is turned she vehemently does the opposite.



Quoting TidewaterClan:

First off, your lion looks super!  

Here are my thoughts (for what they're worth).  If your daughter gets in a lot of trouble for reading or playing computer games it may not be that big a leap, in her mind, to break into the neighbor's yard or shoplift.  My own girls and their friends all do the same (on the games of course).  I just gently take away the pc or book until my daughters are done with chores or studies, then give them back.  My older daughter was so bad with her iPod for awhile that I took it away then completely forgot where I put it for a month.  We finally found it on top of the refrigerator.  She puts it away immediately now when I ask her to, LOL.  

My advice is to let the punishment fit the crime, especially as she moves into her teen years (she's 11?).  That way the communication between the two of you stays open, and she never feels that she can't talk to you.

Lastly, does she have any free time that's just hers during the day?  Do the kids have a recess in the middle where they can 'turn off' for awhile?  If not, are there any activities she doesn't enjoy that could be cut out?  It's so important for everyone to just have some down time (mindless video games, reading, painting, whatever).  She may honestly need that, and feel that sneaking it in is her only option.






Shirley0990
by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 2:06 PM
2 moms liked this
That's sickening. Did u skip lunch? She's a child. Let her eat.
kirbymom
by Sonja on Oct. 30, 2013 at 2:53 PM
Oh Krissy. This is such a tough time for you and your family. It's tough making decisions and coming up with solutions. You are in a tough place right now but even if all the things you decide may be the right solution to any particular problem turns out not to be, don't stop trying. Don't stop struggling. At least you ARE trying to help and trying to find a solution.
As for those who disagree with the solutions you are coming up with but guess what, it doesn't matter. They don't live with you. They do not know first hand what this situation is really like. They can only surmise the situation. You do what you feel/think may hold the answers and work. Who are we to "judge" what you do. I have had to come to this long awaited, hard fought for, thought process...."Can you do any better? Prove it then." "If not, close your mouth and walk away."
I see and feel your pain. btw - I have been there. Mire times than I care to count.
Caring-heartZ
by on Oct. 30, 2013 at 3:01 PM
1 mom liked this
This! Freedom will help! Not a nagging mom!


Quoting PurpleCupcake:

This is what I wish someone had told me when my now 13 year old daughter was 10! 


Ok, first I would change up discipline strategy. Nagging and staying on top of her is only going to drive you insane! If she is caught doing something she is not supposed to be doing, take that  away for the day. Caught reading a book? Take the book away...don't nag and then choose to bed her to bed early for punishment. Didn't finish practice choir before lunch? Take the choir away, not the lunch. In essence, make the punishment fit the crime.  And you want the punishment to follow the crime immediately. If you can't take something away...use time outs instead. 10 to 15 minutes of staring at a wall does wonders sometimes. 


Next, use your built in mommy guilt power (you were given the gift when you had your first child). Instead of yelling, nagging, pulling your hair out....simply say..."I'm so disappointed in your behavior"...throw in a little silent treatment if necessary. 

Then negotiate...don't dictate. With the hair brushing problem. "I would like you to brush your hair twice a day, everyday"...."but I'm willing to negotiate, how about once a day in the morning?"    "I would like you to read more non fiction, but I know you like fiction. How about I pick a nonfiction then when you are finished you can pick what you like".

Make rules clear, simple and logical. Write them on a piece of paper on the refrigerator if you like. Explain the rules and why you made the rule. "No eating in the living room because I don't want a mess on the carpet". 

It really sounds like to me that this child craves control in her life. Which is why her behavior got worse when you took more control away. At that age they want independence and clearly defined boundaries. BUT...I get why youre hesitant because of her past mistakes. However, the simple truth is...that is how kids learn about boundaries, when they mess up. Unfortunately as moms we have to be quick to forgive and forget (I know, I know...that is hard to do!). 

Start giving her more freedom...She will like the taste if it and she will want more. Yes! She will lie again. She will mess up that freedom. Expect it, it is a guarantee. Give her a logical consequence and move on. I'm sure you have tried giving more freedom before, but when she messed up did she ever really get that freedom back?

Set reasonable limits

Be consistent

Reward good and bad behavior

Be patient (this will not get better overnight)

Use discussion & listen to/validate her opinions

At the end if the day relax, relax, relax. Take a bubble bath, read...do something. The more stressed you are, the more likely you are to react badly to her misbehaving. Cool, calm, collected.


Just my measly 2 cents. 



KrissyKC
by Silver Member on Oct. 30, 2013 at 6:09 PM

Well, she signed a paper committing to practicing choir X amount of times per week, she had to practice it two times in a row before going to choir and she was aware and reminded of the responsibility.    She ignored her responsibility while I was teaching the kindy and making lunch.  

I made her lunch, but by the time she finished practicing choir, her Dad was ready to walk her out the door.  I didn't tell her she couldn't eat, but she just had no time after practice to eat.   It was still there when she got back and she didn't die in the less than 2 hours she was gone.   Didn't suddenly go into convultions or pass out either. 


Quoting Shirley0990:

That's sickening. Did u skip lunch? She's a child. Let her eat.



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