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separation of church and state

Posted by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 6:15 PM
  • 88 Replies

I have never really explored CM much beyond the education and book club groups. I wanted to find a group to join that discussed a wide range of topics. Anyone have any suggestions?  

I am specifically trying to find somewhere to ask about separation of church and state; what the actual laws are regarding religion in the schools. There was a case in Tx that got me thinking about this recently.

by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 6:15 PM
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Replies (1-10):
TidewaterClan
by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 9:01 PM
2 moms liked this
The ladies in Current Events & Hot Topics may have info. They seem really in the know, so I've only scooted through there and have never replied. :)
Mandallyn
by Member on Jan. 25, 2014 at 9:11 PM
2 moms liked this

You can really see both sides of the argument there.  There's plenty of hyper conservative and liberal women there.  They've certainly got their claws out though.

Quoting TidewaterClan: The ladies in Current Events & Hot Topics may have info. They seem really in the know, so I've only scooted through there and have never replied. :)


TidewaterClan
by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 9:17 PM
That's why I was quiet, lol!

They always seem to be discussing things in a very intelligent way.

I'm sure you'd get some good insight from them Celtic. Just steel yourself ahead of time. :)


Quoting Mandallyn:

You can really see both sides of the argument there.  There's plenty of hyper conservative and liberal women there.  They've certainly got their claws out though.

Quoting TidewaterClan: The ladies in Current Events & Hot Topics may have info. They seem really in the know, so I've only scooted through there and have never replied. :)


Rhodin
by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM

Back in the day when America decided to separate church and state, church and state were so enmeshed, they were practically the same thing.  The pope totally could order troops to war zones like a medieval U.N, among other things, and rulers commonly passed laws about what kinds of churches could be in their borders and what they'd preach.  Most of the people in the US were sick of the BS, which is why they came here.  They decided to keep religion out of Congress and Congress out of religion.  It hasn't been perfect.

Personally, I think the whole evolution vs. creation thing is picking at nits, especially with the internet right over there and full of facts.

celtic77dragon
by Member on Jan. 25, 2014 at 10:42 PM
2 moms liked this

This wasn't about evolution. There was a incident in south Texas where a school district had a teacher take down a religious sign or poster in the classroom (when I was in north Texas I saw this in A LOT of classrooms). 

People in the community were outraged by this. They decided that since teachers cant express their religious views - students can. So they took up a donation and handed out bright red matching religious shirts to students. They are now going to have ALL the Christian kids show up to school wearing these shirts.

I live up north most of the time and I have never seen stuff like this happen. A religious sign wouldn't be put up in a classroom around where I live - and religion seems to be treated like a personal thing. It is easy for me to respect everyones beliefs because of it. When I go down south I end up offended fast - even by people that are the SAME religion as what I relate to. 

Anyways, I was asking someone what the purpose was of the tshirts. I got a few answers and a whole dialogue ensued. One of the comments was that the laws concerning separation of church and state were being taken too liberal. So I want to better understand the laws concerning this, because I don't really know them to be honest. I don't know where state rights comes into play, school policys, etc. 

Im still not sure who these kids were sending the message to. To the school? Just out of pride for their religion? When I suggested they make coexist shirts instead, so that ALL religious kids in the school could support religious expression in schools - they didnt like the idea and said that I missed the point. I personally do not think kids need to be making religious stances at school about this matter and I got jumped on for that. When I suggested that the adults wear these shirts to work - I was told that a workplace is not the appropriate environment for this. Then why is school?! There are ten billion ways to express your religious views (not that I even understand why people feel SUCH a need to do it), does school HAVE to be one of these outlets for it. Once the kids wear the shirts, it will definitely be made clear who is Christian and who is not. WOW! If high school didn't have enough distractions from academics, ways to make kids to feel excluded, and have enough emotionally charged teens running around... now here is one more thing to heighten those situations. Yikes!


 

Quoting Rhodin:

Back in the day when America decided to separate church and state, church and state were so enmeshed, they were practically the same thing.  The pope totally could order troops to war zones like a medieval U.N, among other things, and rulers commonly passed laws about what kinds of churches could be in their borders and what they'd preach.  Most of the people in the US were sick of the BS, which is why they came here.  They decided to keep religion out of Congress and Congress out of religion.  It hasn't been perfect.

Personally, I think the whole evolution vs. creation thing is picking at nits, especially with the internet right over there and full of facts.


Bleacher-mom
by Member on Jan. 25, 2014 at 11:56 PM
4 moms liked this

You might want to check out this (Look down to JEFFERSON AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS) and then this. It might clear it up for you. I have not studied it that much, but from what I've read is that he was not intending to seperate church out of state, but to keep state out of church.

romacox
by Silver Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 10:02 AM
4 moms liked this

Thank you for having the courage to  post that history  and documentation Bleacher-mom.  The slave owners did not want blacks learning to read, because they would have known  what Martin Luther King talked about in his "I Had A Dream Speech".

  Today most Americans know nothing about the Constitution and it's history.  We have been taught that the Supreme Court is the keeper of the Constitution.  But Justice Joseph Storey said that the people are its keepers, and if we did not trouble to learn it,  our freedoms would perish.

   As a senior citizen, I have watched that happen over so many years.  As a result I began to study the Constitution and its history only to learn that its erosion began well before I was born.. I was surprised to learn that had we followed the Constitution, what happened to the Indians and blacks would never have happened.  

P.S. I like that your answered her question so respectfully. 


Quoting Bleacher-mom:

You might want to check out this (Look down to JEFFERSON AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS) and then this. It might clear it up for you. I have not studied it that much, but from what I've read is that he was not intending to seperate church out of state, but to keep state out of church.


katyq
by Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 2:22 PM
3 moms liked this

The constitution states very clearly that the gov. Should turn a blind eye to religion. It should not endorse any or inhibit the practice of any. This is why pres. Candidates touting their religious views while campaigning turns my stomach a bit. I don't care if a politician is Christian, Hindu, Muslim or what have you. Is he or she a moron? THAT is what I need to know. Fundie Christians like to say that America was "founded" in Chistianity, whatever that means, but the reality is, most of the 'fathers" were either atheist, completely secular moderate Christians or agnostics and they ALL wanted religion kept in the home or your religious establishment. If it was Muslim propaganda on those classroom walls, those people would grab their pitchforks. This isn't about freedom of religion for them, it is about THEIR religion being public and dominant. The end. :p 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

This wasn't about evolution. There was a incident in south Texas where a school district had a teacher take down a religious sign or poster in the classroom (when I was in north Texas I saw this in A LOT of classrooms). 

People in the community were outraged by this. They decided that since teachers cant express their religious views - students can. So they took up a donation and handed out bright red matching religious shirts to students. They are now going to have ALL the Christian kids show up to school wearing these shirts.

I live up north most of the time and I have never seen stuff like this happen. A religious sign wouldn't be put up in a classroom around where I live - and religion seems to be treated like a personal thing. It is easy for me to respect everyones beliefs because of it. When I go down south I end up offended fast - even by people that are the SAME religion as what I relate to. 

Anyways, I was asking someone what the purpose was of the tshirts. I got a few answers and a whole dialogue ensued. One of the comments was that the laws concerning separation of church and state were being taken too liberal. So I want to better understand the laws concerning this, because I don't really know them to be honest. I don't know where state rights comes into play, school policys, etc. 

Im still not sure who these kids were sending the message to. To the school? Just out of pride for their religion? When I suggested they make coexist shirts instead, so that EVERYONE in the school could support religious expression in schools - they didnt like the idea and said that I missed the point. I personally do not think kids need to be making religious stances at school about this matter and I got jumped on for that. When I suggested that the adults where these shirts to work - I was told that a workplace is not the appropriate environment for this. Then why is school?! There are ten billion ways to express your religious views (not that I even understand why people feel SUCH a need to do it), does school HAVE to be one of these outlets for it (I mean in this way a kid choosing to pray quietly, wear a tshirt.. that is cool). Once the kids wear the shirts, it will definitely be made clear who is Christian and who is not. WOW! If high school didn't have enough distractions from academics, ways to make kids to feel excluded, and have enough emotionally charged teens running around... now here is one more thing to exasperate those situations. Yikes!


 

Quoting Rhodin:

Back in the day when America decided to separate church and state, church and state were so enmeshed, they were practically the same thing.  The pope totally could order troops to war zones like a medieval U.N, among other things, and rulers commonly passed laws about what kinds of churches could be in their borders and what they'd preach.  Most of the people in the US were sick of the BS, which is why they came here.  They decided to keep religion out of Congress and Congress out of religion.  It hasn't been perfect.

Personally, I think the whole evolution vs. creation thing is picking at nits, especially with the internet right over there and full of facts.



Jesusdied4u
by on Jan. 26, 2014 at 2:39 PM
2 moms liked this
No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.

katyq
by Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 2:51 PM
3 moms liked this

The founding fathers were real, they were not "based" on anything but if what you are actually implying is that they were all Christian, you would be wrong. As a woman, I am offended by your victim complex because it is Christians who are doing everything they can to take my freedom and respect through anti abortion and anti bc campaigns and general whining. I have never done a thing to a Christian but if you try to shove your beliefs down my throat in a government funded forum, then yes, my claws will come out because the constitution says that you can't do that.

Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.


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