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separation of church and state

I have never really explored CM much beyond the education and book club groups. I wanted to find a group to join that discussed a wide range of topics. Anyone have any suggestions?  

I am specifically trying to find somewhere to ask about separation of church and state; what the actual laws are regarding religion in the schools. There was a case in Tx that got me thinking about this recently.

by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 6:15 PM
Replies (21-30):
celtic77dragon
by Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 4:35 PM

I am headed off to check these out right now. Thanks!

Quoting Bleacher-mom:

You might want to check out this (Look down to JEFFERSON AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS) and then this. It might clear it up for you. I have not studied it that much, but from what I've read is that he was not intending to seperate church out of state, but to keep state out of church.


kirbymom
by Sonja on Jan. 26, 2014 at 4:38 PM
2 moms liked this
The main focus of "separation of church and state" was to get away from the hold the "church" had over the monarchy and the people. There were those who wanted to have a politically constitutionally ruled republic and not a theocratically ruled monarchy.
KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jan. 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM
1 mom liked this

It's an interesting debate, but sadly like most laws it will be a debate to decide the 'interpretation' - most interpret the law as saying no religious connotations (signs, expression, etc) can be in any government /public space....but most schools (and town halls) still put up Christmas trees. So obviously the line isn't as black and white as it could be. 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I wasnt trying to create a debate here - but go for it. I love to hear all kinds of views on various topics.

My point was more of trying to figure out where the LEGAL line is of religious expression within the schools.


KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jan. 26, 2014 at 5:45 PM
3 moms liked this

The U.S. Founding Fathers: Their Religious Beliefs


Although the Declaration of Independence mentioned “Nature’s God” and the “Creator,” the Constitution made no reference to a divine being, Christian or otherwise, and the First Amendment explicitly forbid the establishment of any official church or creed. There is also a story, probably apocryphal, that Benjamin Franklin’s proposal to call in a chaplain to offer a prayer when a particularly controversial issue was being debated in the Constitutional Convention prompted Hamilton to observe that he saw no reason to call in foreign aid. If there is a clear legacy bequeathed by the founders, it is the insistence that religion was a private matter in which the state should not interfere.

In recent decades Christian advocacy groups, prompted by motives that have been questioned by some, have felt a powerful urge to enlist the Founding Fathers in their respective congregations. But recovering the spiritual convictions of the Founders, in all their messy integrity, is not an easy task. Once again, diversity is the dominant pattern. Franklin and Jefferson were deists, Washington harbored a pantheistic sense of providential destiny, John Adams began a Congregationalist and ended a Unitarian, Hamilton was a lukewarm Anglican for most of his life but embraced a more actively Christian posture after his son died in a duel.

One quasi-religious conviction they all shared, however, was a discernible obsession with living on in the memory of posterity. One reason the modern editions of their papers are so monstrously large is that most of the Founders were compulsively fastidious about preserving every scrap of paper they wrote or received, all as part of a desire to leave a written record that would assure their secular immortality in the history books. (When John Adams and Jefferson discussed the possibility of a more conventional immortality, they tended to describe heaven as a place where they could resume their ongoing argument on earth.) Adams, irreverent to the end, declared that, if it could ever be demonstrated conclusively that no future state existed, his advice to every man, woman, and child was to “take opium.” The only afterlife which they considered certain was in the memory of subsequent generations, which is to say us. In that sense, these very blog posts are a testimonial to their everlasting life.

Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.


KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jan. 26, 2014 at 5:50 PM
3 moms liked this

I love the idea of the kids wearing a coexist t-shirts...but sadly, I think these kind of postures are less about freedom of speech (promoting all religions) and more a tantrum (promoting a single faith)

Quoting celtic77dragon:

This wasn't about evolution. There was a incident in south Texas where a school district had a teacher take down a religious sign or poster in the classroom (when I was in north Texas I saw this in A LOT of classrooms). 

People in the community were outraged by this. They decided that since teachers cant express their religious views - students can. So they took up a donation and handed out bright red matching religious shirts to students. They are now going to have ALL the Christian kids show up to school wearing these shirts.

I live up north most of the time and I have never seen stuff like this happen. A religious sign wouldn't be put up in a classroom around where I live - and religion seems to be treated like a personal thing. It is easy for me to respect everyones beliefs because of it. When I go down south I end up offended fast - even by people that are the SAME religion as what I relate to. 

Anyways, I was asking someone what the purpose was of the tshirts. I got a few answers and a whole dialogue ensued. One of the comments was that the laws concerning separation of church and state were being taken too liberal. So I want to better understand the laws concerning this, because I don't really know them to be honest. I don't know where state rights comes into play, school policys, etc. 

Im still not sure who these kids were sending the message to. To the school? Just out of pride for their religion? When I suggested they make coexist shirts instead, so that ALL religious kids in the school could support religious expression in schools - they didnt like the idea and said that I missed the point. I personally do not think kids need to be making religious stances at school about this matter and I got jumped on for that. When I suggested that the adults wear these shirts to work - I was told that a workplace is not the appropriate environment for this. Then why is school?! There are ten billion ways to express your religious views (not that I even understand why people feel SUCH a need to do it), does school HAVE to be one of these outlets for it. Once the kids wear the shirts, it will definitely be made clear who is Christian and who is not. WOW! If high school didn't have enough distractions from academics, ways to make kids to feel excluded, and have enough emotionally charged teens running around... now here is one more thing to heighten those situations. Yikes!


 

Quoting Rhodin:

Back in the day when America decided to separate church and state, church and state were so enmeshed, they were practically the same thing.  The pope totally could order troops to war zones like a medieval U.N, among other things, and rulers commonly passed laws about what kinds of churches could be in their borders and what they'd preach.  Most of the people in the US were sick of the BS, which is why they came here.  They decided to keep religion out of Congress and Congress out of religion.  It hasn't been perfect.

Personally, I think the whole evolution vs. creation thing is picking at nits, especially with the internet right over there and full of facts.



romacox
by Silver Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 6:11 PM
2 moms liked this

It should not be about one Religion verses another, or even religion verses atheism.  It is about freedom verses tierney as it was during the American Revolution  On that all peoples can be united. 

When India was standing against  British tierney,  Gandhi pleaded for the people to stop fighting each other. They were their own worst enemy.  Will we be so divided that we will be our own worst enemy? Can we not discuss the original question without attacking each other?  

Before the American Revolution, most Churches were simply an arm of King George..  They taught that one needed a minister to interpret the Bible (The Bible had just been translated to English), and a King to rule over you.  Men were subjects, and not citizens.  

Ministers like George Whitfield (like Gandhi, The Founders and Plato)  taught that one could rule over themselves, and we all have a divine connection to our Creator, and do not need a minister to interpret. Such Ministers like George Whitfield were banned from preaching in the Churches of that time. The Founders simply  did not want the Churches to become an arm of the government as they had been under King George.  The Constitution does not limit the people (unless they commit a crime)... it limits the government.  People are free to worship or not worship as they so please as long as they do not harm another person. 

Whitfield preached his sermons outside.  He had such a big influence on the American Revolution that many pinned  pieces of his clothing to theirs as they went into battle.  Ministers like Whitfield united people..  Unfortunately many have forgotten those important lessons. 



kirbymom
by Sonja on Jan. 26, 2014 at 6:55 PM
2 moms liked this
Not only do most miss the important lessons from those days but they take the quoted, Impersonalized words and repeat them without the intended feeling of the words as well. The thinking in that time is also not taken into account either. So most of what was said or done in that era is either misinterpreted or completely turned into something else entirely.


Quoting romacox:

It should not be about one Religion verses another, or even religion verses atheism.  It is about freedom verses tierney as it was during the American Revolution  On that all peoples can be united. 

When India was standing against  British tierney,  Gandhi pleaded for the people to stop fighting each other. They were their own worst enemy.  Will we be so divided that we will be our own worst enemy? Can we not discuss the original question without attacking each other?  

Before the American Revolution, most Churches were simply an arm of King George..  They taught that one needed a minister to interpret the Bible (The Bible had just been translated to English), and a King to rule over you.  Men were subjects, and not citizens.  

Ministers like George Whitfield (like Gandhi, The Founders and Plato)  taught that one could rule over themselves, and we all have a divine connection to our Creator, and do not need a minister to interpret. Such Ministers like George Whitfield were banned from preaching in the Churches of that time. The Founders simply  did not want the Churches to become an arm of the government as they had been under King George.  The Constitution does not limit the people (unless they commit a crime)... it limits the government.  People are free to worship or not worship as they so please as long as they do not harm another person. 

Whitfield preached his sermons outside.  He had such a big influence on the American Revolution that many pinned  pieces of his clothing to theirs as they went into battle.  Ministers like Whitfield united people..  Unfortunately many have forgotten those important lessons. 

romacox
by Silver Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 7:14 PM
1 mom liked this

That is so very true Kirbymom.  A good example of that  is the current versions if   words welfare and democracy compared to their definitions during the time the Constitution was written. 

Quoting kirbymom: Not only do most miss the important lessons from those days but they take the quoted, Impersonalized words and repeat them without the intended feeling of the words as well. The thinking in that time is also not taken into account either. So most of what was said or done in that era is either misinterpreted or completely turned into something else entirely.


Quoting romacox:

It should not be about one Religion verses another, or even religion verses atheism.  It is about freedom verses tierney as it was during the American Revolution  On that all peoples can be united. 

When India was standing against  British tierney,  Gandhi pleaded for the people to stop fighting each other. They were their own worst enemy.  Will we be so divided that we will be our own worst enemy? Can we not discuss the original question without attacking each other?  

Before the American Revolution, most Churches were simply an arm of King George..  They taught that one needed a minister to interpret the Bible (The Bible had just been translated to English), and a King to rule over you.  Men were subjects, and not citizens.  

Ministers like George Whitfield (like Gandhi, The Founders and Plato)  taught that one could rule over themselves, and we all have a divine connection to our Creator, and do not need a minister to interpret. Such Ministers like George Whitfield were banned from preaching in the Churches of that time. The Founders simply  did not want the Churches to become an arm of the government as they had been under King George.  The Constitution does not limit the people (unless they commit a crime)... it limits the government.  People are free to worship or not worship as they so please as long as they do not harm another person. 

Whitfield preached his sermons outside.  He had such a big influence on the American Revolution that many pinned  pieces of his clothing to theirs as they went into battle.  Ministers like Whitfield united people..  Unfortunately many have forgotten those important lessons. 




kirbymom
by Sonja on Jan. 26, 2014 at 7:29 PM
1 mom liked this
Ah, yes. Meanings of words. Those two words definitely do not mean the same today as they did at the time of the writing of the Constitution. How about socialism and deism? Definitely have changed over the last century and a half.

Quoting romacox:

That is so very true Kirbymom.  A good example of that  is the current versions if   words welfare and democracy compared to their definitions during the time the Constitution was written. 

Quoting kirbymom: Not only do most miss the important lessons from those days but they take the quoted, Impersonalized words and repeat them without the intended feeling of the words as well. The thinking in that time is also not taken into account either. So most of what was said or done in that era is either misinterpreted or completely turned into something else entirely.


Quoting romacox:

It should not be about one Religion verses another, or even religion verses atheism.  It is about freedom verses tierney as it was during the American Revolution  On that all peoples can be united. 

When India was standing against  British tierney,  Gandhi pleaded for the people to stop fighting each other. They were their own worst enemy.  Will we be so divided that we will be our own worst enemy? Can we not discuss the original question without attacking each other?  

Before the American Revolution, most Churches were simply an arm of King George..  They taught that one needed a minister to interpret the Bible (The Bible had just been translated to English), and a King to rule over you.  Men were subjects, and not citizens.  

Ministers like George Whitfield (like Gandhi, The Founders and Plato)  taught that one could rule over themselves, and we all have a divine connection to our Creator, and do not need a minister to interpret. Such Ministers like George Whitfield were banned from preaching in the Churches of that time. The Founders simply  did not want the Churches to become an arm of the government as they had been under King George.  The Constitution does not limit the people (unless they commit a crime)... it limits the government.  People are free to worship or not worship as they so please as long as they do not harm another person. 

Whitfield preached his sermons outside.  He had such a big influence on the American Revolution that many pinned  pieces of his clothing to theirs as they went into battle.  Ministers like Whitfield united people..  Unfortunately many have forgotten those important lessons. 

paganbaby
by Silver Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 8:31 PM
1 mom liked this

Yep. That's my home away from here. I'm known very well there,lol.

Quoting TidewaterClan: The ladies in Current Events & Hot Topics may have info. They seem really in the know, so I've only scooted through there and have never replied. :)




I will not have a temper tantrum nor stomp across the floor.


I will not pout, scream or shout or kick against the door.

I will not throw my food around nor pick upon another.

I’ll always try to be real good because I am the mother.

I am the mother.

I am the mother.














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