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separation of church and state

I have never really explored CM much beyond the education and book club groups. I wanted to find a group to join that discussed a wide range of topics. Anyone have any suggestions?  

I am specifically trying to find somewhere to ask about separation of church and state; what the actual laws are regarding religion in the schools. There was a case in Tx that got me thinking about this recently.

by on Jan. 25, 2014 at 6:15 PM
Replies (31-40):
Mandallyn
by Member on Jan. 26, 2014 at 8:40 PM
1 mom liked this
I thought it was the teachers that can't discuss religious beliefs with the students, but students have a right to express their religious affiliations... While I personally think it's a tremendous overreaction on the communities part, I don't think it falls outside the limit of the law.

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I wasnt trying to create a debate here - but go for it. I love to hear all kinds of views on various topics.

My point was more of trying to figure out where the LEGAL line is of religious expression within the schools.

KickButtMama
by Shannon on Jan. 26, 2014 at 10:28 PM
3 moms liked this

 I agree. No law has been broken, everyone should chill. IMO, not being allowed to post the teachers faith isn't an attack on that faith, it's preventing discrimination against all the students in the class from alternate faiths. Not to mention, teachers should be focusing more on academics than on regilious stances anyhow.

Quoting Mandallyn: I thought it was the teachers that can't discuss religious beliefs with the students, but students have a right to express their religious affiliations... While I personally think it's a tremendous overreaction on the communities part, I don't think it falls outside the limit of the law.

 

celtic77dragon
by Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 2:26 AM
4 moms liked this

Yeah, I always understood that no laws are being broken on the kids part. I just still don't get it... 

It is like paying for a ticket in pennies. You can legally do it, it just doesn't make you any less of an ass for doing it.

I would say this about any religion: They are creating a distraction and an exclusion. This is not how laws are changed and the school boards hands are tied. They don't want to do coexist shirts. So this is about using the situation as a chance for propaganda.  

Quoting Mandallyn: I thought it was the teachers that can't discuss religious beliefs with the students, but students have a right to express their religious affiliations... While I personally think it's a tremendous overreaction on the communities part, I don't think it falls outside the limit of the law.

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I wasnt trying to create a debate here - but go for it. I love to hear all kinds of views on various topics.

My point was more of trying to figure out where the LEGAL line is of religious expression within the schools.


romacox
by Silver Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 10:05 AM
5 moms liked this

There is something illegal in all of this though.  The Constitution does not allow the Federal Government to be involved in the school system...the Dept. of Edu. is unconstitutional.  But when the schools accept tax payer money, and parents send their children there,  then they have to do their bidding. It is understandable that the taxpayer would have a say so in what is allowed, and not allowed...the majority rules (a Democracy).

You see, the Constitution created not a democracy (mob rule), but a Republic (rule by law). 

Originally the school system was much like what  we enjoy as home educators.  The community hired a teacher, and she answered to the community rather than the government.  As home educators, most of us are not funded by the taxpayers (the government)  So if we want our children's education to be secular, Christianity, Muslim, or any other Religion,   we have that freedom which is not granted to those who accept tax payer money.  Private schools also offer that freedom to choose, but not if they accept taxpayer money...most do not  accept the strings attached to gov. funding....the parents pay. for their right to choose.   

paganbaby
by Silver Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 11:06 AM

You can't be serious...

Quoting katyq:

I totally agree. I am not opposed to seeing or hearing or being around any religion, but there is a time and place for everything. My husband isAfghan but an atheist. He works in Afghanistan and is always dealing with other Afghans' interference in his daily activities with their religious blather. "Don't eat that, it has pork", "I haven't seen you at the mosque", "don't fall asleep on your stomach, I saw you sleep on your stomach last night" ....that last one is because they think the devil will crawl up your butt when you sleep, I have heard other (arab) Muslims say it is because the devil sleeps on his stomach....so yea, there is a definitely a line. 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I really think that the people who think religion doesn't need to be brought into EVERY situation, get a bad rap. Christians say that it is only done to them. They are the majority though and so of course you do hear about those cases more often. However, there are other cases of it happening. For example, I have seen news reports concerning schools trying to ban Jewish and Muslim garb. 

It is not people against religion. Some of the people are religious themselves. Some of us just think that there is a time and place for things; that not every environment is appropriate for making bold stances.

You would not go to your job and decide that you are going to make some major religious or political stand that violates company policy - or you would lose your job. Yet it is fine to wear crucifix around your neck or wear a religious shirt or pray silently or read the bible on your break. There are varying degrees of doing things and lines that can be crossed.  

I want to learn more about where the laws stand on some of this though. Just because "I think" something should or should not be allowed, does not mean that my opinion is enough to speak for all of society.


Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.






I will not have a temper tantrum nor stomp across the floor.


I will not pout, scream or shout or kick against the door.

I will not throw my food around nor pick upon another.

I’ll always try to be real good because I am the mother.

I am the mother.

I am the mother.














paganbaby
by Silver Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 11:13 AM
1 mom liked this

That's crappy. And like you said before, once all the kids show in shirts, you'll know who's Christian and who's not, right away. I was teased plenty in elementry school for not being a "normal" Christian. I can just imagine the reactions to those kids who don't wear them.

Quoting celtic77dragon:

Yeah, I always understood that no laws are being broken on the kids part. I just still don't get it... 

It is like paying for a ticket in pennies. You can legally do it, it just doesn't make you any less of an ass for doing it.

I would say this about any religion: They are creating a distraction and an exclusion. This is not how laws are changed and the school boards hands are tied. They don't want to do coexist shirts. So this is about using the situation as a chance for propaganda.  

Quoting Mandallyn: I thought it was the teachers that can't discuss religious beliefs with the students, but students have a right to express their religious affiliations... While I personally think it's a tremendous overreaction on the communities part, I don't think it falls outside the limit of the law.

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I wasnt trying to create a debate here - but go for it. I love to hear all kinds of views on various topics.

My point was more of trying to figure out where the LEGAL line is of religious expression within the schools.





I will not have a temper tantrum nor stomp across the floor.


I will not pout, scream or shout or kick against the door.

I will not throw my food around nor pick upon another.

I’ll always try to be real good because I am the mother.

I am the mother.

I am the mother.














katyq
by Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Totally serious. -_- and on an intl' flight last year, my son fell asleep standing up and leaning over his seat and there was this Nigerian Muslim man on the other side of him that made a big 'ol fuss about it. 

Quoting paganbaby:

You can't be serious...

Quoting katyq:

I totally agree. I am not opposed to seeing or hearing or being around any religion, but there is a time and place for everything. My husband isAfghan but an atheist. He works in Afghanistan and is always dealing with other Afghans' interference in his daily activities with their religious blather. "Don't eat that, it has pork", "I haven't seen you at the mosque", "don't fall asleep on your stomach, I saw you sleep on your stomach last night" ....that last one is because they think the devil will crawl up your butt when you sleep, I have heard other (arab) Muslims say it is because the devil sleeps on his stomach....so yea, there is a definitely a line. 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I really think that the people who think religion doesn't need to be brought into EVERY situation, get a bad rap. Christians say that it is only done to them. They are the majority though and so of course you do hear about those cases more often. However, there are other cases of it happening. For example, I have seen news reports concerning schools trying to ban Jewish and Muslim garb. 

It is not people against religion. Some of the people are religious themselves. Some of us just think that there is a time and place for things; that not every environment is appropriate for making bold stances.

You would not go to your job and decide that you are going to make some major religious or political stand that violates company policy - or you would lose your job. Yet it is fine to wear crucifix around your neck or wear a religious shirt or pray silently or read the bible on your break. There are varying degrees of doing things and lines that can be crossed.  

I want to learn more about where the laws stand on some of this though. Just because "I think" something should or should not be allowed, does not mean that my opinion is enough to speak for all of society.


Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.





paganbaby
by Silver Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 12:07 PM

Of all the silly things people believe in... What's wrong with sleeping standing up? Does your butt need to be covered at all times or what?

Quoting katyq:

Totally serious. -_- and on an intl' flight last year, my son fell asleep standing up and leaning over his seat and there was this Nigerian Muslim man on the other side of him that made a big 'ol fuss about it. 

Quoting paganbaby:

You can't be serious...

Quoting katyq:

I totally agree. I am not opposed to seeing or hearing or being around any religion, but there is a time and place for everything. My husband isAfghan but an atheist. He works in Afghanistan and is always dealing with other Afghans' interference in his daily activities with their religious blather. "Don't eat that, it has pork", "I haven't seen you at the mosque", "don't fall asleep on your stomach, I saw you sleep on your stomach last night" ....that last one is because they think the devil will crawl up your butt when you sleep, I have heard other (arab) Muslims say it is because the devil sleeps on his stomach....so yea, there is a definitely a line. 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I really think that the people who think religion doesn't need to be brought into EVERY situation, get a bad rap. Christians say that it is only done to them. They are the majority though and so of course you do hear about those cases more often. However, there are other cases of it happening. For example, I have seen news reports concerning schools trying to ban Jewish and Muslim garb. 

It is not people against religion. Some of the people are religious themselves. Some of us just think that there is a time and place for things; that not every environment is appropriate for making bold stances.

You would not go to your job and decide that you are going to make some major religious or political stand that violates company policy - or you would lose your job. Yet it is fine to wear crucifix around your neck or wear a religious shirt or pray silently or read the bible on your break. There are varying degrees of doing things and lines that can be crossed.  

I want to learn more about where the laws stand on some of this though. Just because "I think" something should or should not be allowed, does not mean that my opinion is enough to speak for all of society.


Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.








I will not have a temper tantrum nor stomp across the floor.


I will not pout, scream or shout or kick against the door.

I will not throw my food around nor pick upon another.

I’ll always try to be real good because I am the mother.

I am the mother.

I am the mother.














katyq
by Member on Jan. 27, 2014 at 12:15 PM

It was that he was bent over onto his stomach so he was in a way , asleep on his stomach. I want to know what they think about their devil eating or speaking or generally "being alive".

Quoting paganbaby:

Of all the silly things people believe in... What's wrong with sleeping standing up? Does your butt need to be covered at all times or what?

Quoting katyq:

Totally serious. -_- and on an intl' flight last year, my son fell asleep standing up and leaning over his seat and there was this Nigerian Muslim man on the other side of him that made a big 'ol fuss about it. 

Quoting paganbaby:

You can't be serious...

Quoting katyq:

I totally agree. I am not opposed to seeing or hearing or being around any religion, but there is a time and place for everything. My husband isAfghan but an atheist. He works in Afghanistan and is always dealing with other Afghans' interference in his daily activities with their religious blather. "Don't eat that, it has pork", "I haven't seen you at the mosque", "don't fall asleep on your stomach, I saw you sleep on your stomach last night" ....that last one is because they think the devil will crawl up your butt when you sleep, I have heard other (arab) Muslims say it is because the devil sleeps on his stomach....so yea, there is a definitely a line. 

Quoting celtic77dragon:

I really think that the people who think religion doesn't need to be brought into EVERY situation, get a bad rap. Christians say that it is only done to them. They are the majority though and so of course you do hear about those cases more often. However, there are other cases of it happening. For example, I have seen news reports concerning schools trying to ban Jewish and Muslim garb. 

It is not people against religion. Some of the people are religious themselves. Some of us just think that there is a time and place for things; that not every environment is appropriate for making bold stances.

You would not go to your job and decide that you are going to make some major religious or political stand that violates company policy - or you would lose your job. Yet it is fine to wear crucifix around your neck or wear a religious shirt or pray silently or read the bible on your break. There are varying degrees of doing things and lines that can be crossed.  

I want to learn more about where the laws stand on some of this though. Just because "I think" something should or should not be allowed, does not mean that my opinion is enough to speak for all of society.


Quoting Jesusdied4u: No katyq. It seems to me that EVErYONE else can have their opinion, but Christians. When Christians are vocal--- that's when it becomes a problem. And it's shoved down our throats.


PS the US founding fathers and their beliefs were based on Chrisitanity.







TidewaterClan
by on Jan. 27, 2014 at 10:04 PM
2 moms liked this

I can't find the information about the school to read the whole story.  Yahoo keeps coming back with spirit wear order forms.  So, just to summarize what seems to have happened: 

A teacher in a public school had a religious sign in the classroom, and was asked to remove it.

Students, parents, or both were upset and decided the students would wear matching red shirts to school.  


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!


The teacher should not have had the sign.  That's absolutely true in public school setting.

Here's the thing though - IMO the students have every right to wear matching shirts, and that right should not be taken away.  ALL of the students in the school should use it as a positive example of their First Amendment rights:

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


This is one of those "be careful what you ask for" situations.  Every time we allow another "rule" to be set in place the door is opened for more and more of our rights to be stripped away.  Eventually everyone becomes impacted as "new" rules effect them.

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