We are a Christian home, and BM has no religious affiliation. DH and BM were together 11 years and neither of them were anything. That's cool; BM can live her life any way she wants. I'm sure BM was surprised to hear that DH was Christian now, and that on our weekends, we were taking SD to church. SD really liked it, even asked to go to VBS, where she earned a Bible she was excited about reading. That's when BM took a turn. She told SD she can't read the bible because she can't be a Christian, because she is 100% Jewish. HUH? She even tells GAL that she has always been strictly orthodox Jewish. Again, HUH? BM took SD's Bible away and SD says "mom says I can't read my Bible because I'm Jewish." Now, if she really was Jewish and truly exposed her to Judaism, I would think that is great. SD could be exposed to both and make her own decisions when she is ready. But BM doesn't do this - not even a little. She doesn't go to temple or observe holidays, or anything. BM just makes her feel it is wrong to go to church with us or be Christian.
I understand the basics, but I'm not Jewish. So to help SD feel less conflicted about the position her mother has put her in, we introduced SD to one of our orthodox Jewish friends. They spent the day talking about it, and friend shared traditions, prayers, even traditional foods with SD. So now she seems to think Judaism is ok, but that Christianity is still bad and refuses to go to church with us now. Begs us not to take her and asks to go to mom's instead. DH is dealing with it; I'm staying out of it, but he tells her she doesn't have to go and we all stay home together. Gives me heart burn, but I keep it to myself.
Anyone else out there dealing with this kind of thing?
Oh, I didn't know that - thank you so much for telling me. Our attorney is Orthodox Jewish, so I am sure he will be familiar with the documents you referenced. More importantly, I didn't realize that SD may not be accepted... that is a concern, because we are trying to expose her to both faiths so she can make a choice, but it sounds like she may not have that choice without a lot more steps than we realized. My biggest fear is that she will think all this is not worth the hassle and give up on faith all together. I'm treading so lightly, as it really is something my DH is heading, but this information is so very valuable to us, I can't even tell you.
Quoting collectivecow:
FresshAir,
If you suspect that the mother is not Jewish, you should consult a Rabbi and speak with an attorney aware of Jewish laws.
Believe it or not, there actually are ways of proving through documentation that you are a Jew.
Here are the documents you can request:
A) Any birth or death certificate from BM's family that state she is Jewish
B) Any Hebrew school education paperwork that BM would have had to fill out
C) A copy of the parents' or grandparent's Ketubah (Jewish marriage certificate): If she was in fact raised orthodox, her parents will almost certainly have this.
D) A letter from a Beit Din (Jewish court), or Synagogue claiming that she is Jewish
If BM cannot provide these documents, then you have a real case in proving that she is not Jewish and can officiate a Rabbi to speak on your behalf.
If BM is in fact not Jewish, than SD needs to be aware that the Jewish community will not accept her as a Jew, simply because she claims to be a Jew: She would have to be aware that she would need to ultimately convert.
She also would be unable to make aliyah (use the right of return to go to Israel), or enter most Jewish day schools.
It will also cause severe distress for SD being unaware of who she actually is as an adult.
So start with the basics: Find out if BM can provide you with any of these documents first, before raising this child as Jewish.
Yes, I am fully aware and on board with the best interests of children: Problems like these can become a very big nightmare if not handled appropriately.Quoting FresshAir:
I appreciate how fair your statements are, and truly appreciate the factual information I am getting from all the respondents. In her own words as recorded in deposition, BM said she was raised "strictly orthodox Jewish" and then went on to say, "they only observed Christian holidays." She was clueless about what it is to be Kosher, and had no knowledge about ANY holiday, tradition, practice, or anything else related to Judaism. Beyond that, for the 3 years SD was withheld while we were fighting to get even visitation, let alone custody, BM had no problem allowing SD to attend a Christian church when invited by a neighbor. But when we finally got awarded visitation and began taking her to church, these claims of Judaism suddenly surfaced. Frankly, I do not believe for a moment BM is truly Jewish - she doesn't even know what it is, and certainly doesn't expose SD to the faith in any way at all. But since she has successfully confused the child and forced her into taking a position, we simply honor SD's feelings. BM makes everything into a point of contention - no matter what we do, BM does the opposite and teaches SD our ways and feelings are wrong. The only thing we can to is understand that it doesn't matter if what SD's expressing are truly her feelings or something BM has made her to say, the important thing is that we make her feel safe, supported and loved, and don't participate in the conflict. If SD feels that she is Jewish, then we help her be it. All of you are a huge help in helping me speak intelligently on the matter with SD, and I can't thank you enough!
Quoting KelliStars:
Collectivecow:
Please excuse any mistakes I made. My information came from those who taught me - except for the definitions, which I got from Wikipedia. I believe the information I was taught was correct. Please also understand that for some of the terms, I used those familiar to Christians vs. those familiar to Jews. It was not meant to be disrespectful to you or anyone.
I do know that the Jewish faith does not follow the New Testament, however, PARTS of the New Testament does come from the Torah. This information is something a lot of Christians don't know, which is why I explained. Also, while it's commonly known that Jesus was a Jew, it's not commonly known or understood by Christians that He was also a Rabbi. To be honest, a lot of Christians don't know what a Rabbi does or is. Jesus' teaching are based on HIS faith. Therefore, Christian beliefs are based on the Jewish faith. Finding "common ground" is the first step to understanding and accepting a different faith or belief. Understanding will help the OP and her DH teach her SD about the Jewish faith.
I do agree that Passover's laws, rituals and prayers are difficult to remember. I had to look them up and print them out every year when I was with my ex. I still have to now for my oldest son. However, you have to admit that had BM been raised Orthodox Jew, she should have at least known the REASON for celebrating and remembering Passover. The Jews release from slavery is an important moment.
It is very possible that the BM truly wants her child to be raised within her faith and that it could be a need for her. It could also be that BM is simply using her religion as a means of fighting with her ex and undermining the SM.
Either way, the most important thing is that the focus be on SD's needs and happiness. That she be taught her faith and that she no longer feels pulled in 2 different directions.
Quoting collectivecow:
No problem!
Yes, definitely discuss these options with your attorney, since he will be familiar as to how much legal ramifications can be held in accordance with BM's claims (I am unsure of legal ramifications when it comes to 'claiming' religion, in accordance with ones Constitutional rights, so please be aware of this).
Either way, this information can be invalueable in proceeding with how to handle the situation.
Even if there are no 'legal ramifications' towards her claims and proofing: They can still provide you with insight on what to do next.
Outside of the differences between Judaism and Christianity: Both religions place an extraordinary emphasis on the importance of family, love, respect, kindness and charity to those in need.
There are many very beautiful traditions, so it is worth looking into. We do not actively seek missionizing, so you can do this in a safe environment without worry.
By knowing whether or not SD is Jewish, you can also save a lot of distress in the future for SD. Even her being aware of these views, will at least allow her to conquer them in the future, should she enjoy the religion (if she truly enjoys Judaism and is not Jewish, she can decide to convert, or decide to just appreciate the religion).
The links I gave before can really help explain a lot of our traditions and beliefs: Especially when it comes to matters of family upbringing and the value of each unique soul in the world (whether Jewish or not!).
I am glad that I was able to provide you with a little help in the matter. Some of our biggest holidays are coming up (like Rosh Hashanah or the Jewish New Year) and there are a lot of great traditions revolving these holidays (like dipping apples in honey for a sweet new year!).
Also, check your local JCC (Jewish Community Center): They work with a lot of interfaith couples and provide the same type of environment that the YWCA does. You can find lots of activities, and fun things to do and BM can make friends with other children from the Jewish community, from many different backgrounds.
http://www.jcca.org/
They have a 'find a JCC' near you location. These community centers are awesome and you do not have to be Jewish to be a part of such communities!
Quoting FresshAir:Oh, I didn't know that - thank you so much for telling me. Our attorney is Orthodox Jewish, so I am sure he will be familiar with the documents you referenced. More importantly, I didn't realize that SD may not be accepted... that is a concern, because we are trying to expose her to both faiths so she can make a choice, but it sounds like she may not have that choice without a lot more steps than we realized. My biggest fear is that she will think all this is not worth the hassle and give up on faith all together. I'm treading so lightly, as it really is something my DH is heading, but this information is so very valuable to us, I can't even tell you.
Quoting collectivecow:
FresshAir,
If you suspect that the mother is not Jewish, you should consult a Rabbi and speak with an attorney aware of Jewish laws.
Believe it or not, there actually are ways of proving through documentation that you are a Jew.
Here are the documents you can request:
A) Any birth or death certificate from BM's family that state she is Jewish
B) Any Hebrew school education paperwork that BM would have had to fill out
C) A copy of the parents' or grandparent's Ketubah (Jewish marriage certificate): If she was in fact raised orthodox, her parents will almost certainly have this.
D) A letter from a Beit Din (Jewish court), or Synagogue claiming that she is Jewish
If BM cannot provide these documents, then you have a real case in proving that she is not Jewish and can officiate a Rabbi to speak on your behalf.
If BM is in fact not Jewish, than SD needs to be aware that the Jewish community will not accept her as a Jew, simply because she claims to be a Jew: She would have to be aware that she would need to ultimately convert.
She also would be unable to make aliyah (use the right of return to go to Israel), or enter most Jewish day schools.
It will also cause severe distress for SD being unaware of who she actually is as an adult.
So start with the basics: Find out if BM can provide you with any of these documents first, before raising this child as Jewish.
Yes, I am fully aware and on board with the best interests of children: Problems like these can become a very big nightmare if not handled appropriately.Quoting FresshAir:
I appreciate how fair your statements are, and truly appreciate the factual information I am getting from all the respondents. In her own words as recorded in deposition, BM said she was raised "strictly orthodox Jewish" and then went on to say, "they only observed Christian holidays." She was clueless about what it is to be Kosher, and had no knowledge about ANY holiday, tradition, practice, or anything else related to Judaism. Beyond that, for the 3 years SD was withheld while we were fighting to get even visitation, let alone custody, BM had no problem allowing SD to attend a Christian church when invited by a neighbor. But when we finally got awarded visitation and began taking her to church, these claims of Judaism suddenly surfaced. Frankly, I do not believe for a moment BM is truly Jewish - she doesn't even know what it is, and certainly doesn't expose SD to the faith in any way at all. But since she has successfully confused the child and forced her into taking a position, we simply honor SD's feelings. BM makes everything into a point of contention - no matter what we do, BM does the opposite and teaches SD our ways and feelings are wrong. The only thing we can to is understand that it doesn't matter if what SD's expressing are truly her feelings or something BM has made her to say, the important thing is that we make her feel safe, supported and loved, and don't participate in the conflict. If SD feels that she is Jewish, then we help her be it. All of you are a huge help in helping me speak intelligently on the matter with SD, and I can't thank you enough!
Quoting KelliStars:
Collectivecow:
Please excuse any mistakes I made. My information came from those who taught me - except for the definitions, which I got from Wikipedia. I believe the information I was taught was correct. Please also understand that for some of the terms, I used those familiar to Christians vs. those familiar to Jews. It was not meant to be disrespectful to you or anyone.
I do know that the Jewish faith does not follow the New Testament, however, PARTS of the New Testament does come from the Torah. This information is something a lot of Christians don't know, which is why I explained. Also, while it's commonly known that Jesus was a Jew, it's not commonly known or understood by Christians that He was also a Rabbi. To be honest, a lot of Christians don't know what a Rabbi does or is. Jesus' teaching are based on HIS faith. Therefore, Christian beliefs are based on the Jewish faith. Finding "common ground" is the first step to understanding and accepting a different faith or belief. Understanding will help the OP and her DH teach her SD about the Jewish faith.
I do agree that Passover's laws, rituals and prayers are difficult to remember. I had to look them up and print them out every year when I was with my ex. I still have to now for my oldest son. However, you have to admit that had BM been raised Orthodox Jew, she should have at least known the REASON for celebrating and remembering Passover. The Jews release from slavery is an important moment.
It is very possible that the BM truly wants her child to be raised within her faith and that it could be a need for her. It could also be that BM is simply using her religion as a means of fighting with her ex and undermining the SM.
Either way, the most important thing is that the focus be on SD's needs and happiness. That she be taught her faith and that she no longer feels pulled in 2 different directions.
Quoting collectivecow:
If BP doesn't have the money to see the kid.
Do You Think 50/50 Custody Is Good For the Kids?
- FresshAir
on Aug. 7, 2012 at 11:03 AM