Advertisement
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)


 

Poll

Question: Do you agree with it, or disagree?

Options:

I strongly agree

I strongly disagree

I am middle ways

I really don't care


Only group members can vote in this poll.

Total Votes: 163

View Results


by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 10:39 PM
Replies (111-120):
Shelly126
by Michele on Nov. 26, 2012 at 10:07 AM
Quoting SlapItHigh:


I don't need to sit with you nor do I need you to school me in what you believe about Christ, Christianity or Catholicism, and please do not worry about the salvation of my soul save your worries for your own. I can preach Christs word but I cannot make people follow it, that is their choice, just as the way I live my life is my choice, that doesn't have anything to do with a persons legal right. My religious beliefs are mine, I cannot change the mind of gays just as I cannot change the mind of people of other faiths or even atheists, that doesn't mean I cannot associate with anyone who's beliefs differ from mine. Just as abortion as you brought up is not something I would personally have, it's not for me to say that it should be illegal and no one should or could never have one. There are many reasons people do things and it is not for me to judge, they will have to answer for that themselves. God himself has given free will it is not for me to judge them for their sins, I will save my judgments for atrocities that are truly crimes against humanity, murderers, rapists and child molesters, for that I can be judged for judging others. I will not judge people for sins that IMO do not harm others like a gay couple that live a upstanding lifestyle, committed to each other, and caring for others. Adultery is in the 10 commandments but we don't stone or harshly judge them and take away their legal rights because they have done something immoral. You cannot mix legal rights with moral rights because the country is made up of many religions and cultures that differ in many views.
stormystar15
by on Nov. 26, 2012 at 10:24 AM
1 mom liked this
I agree with same sex marriages. Two people who love each other whether their the same sex or not should be able to marry the traditional way. It's like saying if your kid ended up being gay would you stop loving them and caring for them? I know I would still love and care for them no matter their sexuality and would want them to have the same rights I have.
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
SlapItHigh
by on Nov. 26, 2012 at 11:09 AM


Quoting Shelly126:

Quoting SlapItHigh:


I don't need to sit with you nor do I need you to school me in what you believe about Christ, Christianity or Catholicism, and please do not worry about the salvation of my soul save your worries for your own. I can preach Christs word but I cannot make people follow it, that is their choice, just as the way I live my life is my choice, that doesn't have anything to do with a persons legal right. My religious beliefs are mine, I cannot change the mind of gays just as I cannot change the mind of people of other faiths or even atheists, that doesn't mean I cannot associate with anyone who's beliefs differ from mine. Just as abortion as you brought up is not something I would personally have, it's not for me to say that it should be illegal and no one should or could never have one. There are many reasons people do things and it is not for me to judge, they will have to answer for that themselves. God himself has given free will it is not for me to judge them for their sins, I will save my judgments for atrocities that are truly crimes against humanity, murderers, rapists and child molesters, for that I can be judged for judging others. I will not judge people for sins that IMO do not harm others like a gay couple that live a upstanding lifestyle, committed to each other, and caring for others. Adultery is in the 10 commandments but we don't stone or harshly judge them and take away their legal rights because they have done something immoral. You cannot mix legal rights with moral rights because the country is made up of many religions and cultures that differ in many views.

You can make these choices not to "judge" but you need to know that you are going against the teachings of the Catholic church which we as Catholics believe that it's teachings come from The Holy Spirit per scripture.  You can choose to go against God -- that's your choice with your free will but do you really want to do that?  I have to think this is an issue of lack of education on your faith rather than you choosing to reject God.  Per scripture, the Catholic church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" and the church teaches that you absolutely MUST oppose legal abortion and you must oppose legal same-sex marriage.  To say it's not your place is incorrect and against the church.  It's silly to say that you oppose for yourself but it's not your place to say for others.  Do you feel the same way about slavery?  And that's not as bad as murdering an innocent baby.  

As a Catholic, you absolutely HAVE to mix legal rights with moral rights.  The church has spoken out about this in great detail.  You can choose to reject the Church but understand that what you are saying about mixing legal and moral rights is going against the teachings of the church.  Here are some documents for you to read so that you can inform yourself on the obligations you have as a Catholic and you must know that you are making heretical statements:

Evangelium Vitae

The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

Another Congregatoin for the Doctrine of Faith

According to the above document you have the "moral duty" to oppose these things and that you are required to oppose them both politically.  To deny this is incompatible with the Catholicism -- "clear and emphatic opposition is a duty" according to the third document.  These documents from the Vatican go into great detail about why you must oppose them.  Failure to do so makes one "guilty of a form of intolerant secularism".  Read and see for yourself.  Have you decided that you "know better"?  If so, what makes you more qualified? 

Additionally, you absolutely can change someone's mind.  My mind was changed on this issue when others offered me education and I researched for myself and found them to be accurate.  Also, countless people of other faiths and athiest's minds are changed on a reulgar basis.  You can witness some of their stories here - Journey Home EWTN.  I know it's hard to set aside your pride but God does not call us to be prideful, he calls us to seek the truth.  Also, homosexuality itself is not a sin, only homosexual sex acts.   While one can't change a person's deep-seated sexuality, they can learn to channel that into a deep relationship with God instead of continuing to engage in grave sin that threatens their salvation.  Once you learn more about the meaning of life and humans and sex, this makes perfect sense.  Read The Theology of The Body by Pope John Paul II.  It is false to state that these sins don't harm others.  But as soon as you do basic research, you will see that.  I know pride can make one angry when someone shows them the error of their ways but if you can put aside your pride, you can open yourself up to a world of God that you never knew.  It's absolutely AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Now is your chance to see the meaning of life and become anew.

ETA, I will leave you with the words of Father Vincent Serpa - Is it Morally Wrong Not to Oppose Gay Marriage as Far as the State is Concerned?

Shelly126
by Michele on Nov. 26, 2012 at 12:24 PM
I am not speaking from pride, nor am I speaking FOR the Catholic church on it's beliefs on homosexuality or abortion or any other of it's teachings and doctrines. I am speaking about the rights for same sex marriage which have nothing to do with religious beliefs if those homosexual people are not Catholic, Christian or if they are and still choose their lifestyle. It is THIER choice to live that lifestyle and it is not the countries right to deny them the same legal benefits heterosexual marrige affords because it is against the church's teachings. I can live my life the way I see fit and morally correct, I cannot live other people's lives and make them believe something they care not to or choose to ignore. I'm certain many people change their views and their ways but many people are happy in their religious beliefs or non belief just as I am happy in mine, as I said we all have sin all I can do is repent for my offenses against God, ask for his grace and salvation and continue to live my life through prayer and love, I do not have to hit people over the head with a bible to change their ways. I will not try to convert my Hindu friends or my Jewish friends or even my Muslim friends, I would not want to be in their company and have them try to convert me. I am not afraid of things that are different, they do not shake the foundation of my faith, while I choose not to engage in the sinful acts we spoke of, I cannot condem others for it, it is not my place. I can pray for them but I cannot change it.
To answer your question of slavery, no I don't feel the same way, that is torment and brutality against humanity and entirely different from same sex marriage. As I said there are many reasons a woman would have an abortion, while it is against the catholic church, and not something I would personally have, a woman's life could be @ stake I do not think that is a reason to judge or condemn.
While I appreciate your knowledge of scripture and Vatican laws, I don't need it beat into me for the salvation of my soul. Nor do I feel I need to knock on doors, or preach to convert all others who see differently. I live a decent, moral life, I pray, volunteer, go to church and am active in charities in several nearby communities, i try to be tolerant and in doing so cannot strong arm people into seeing things the way I do. In a country so diverse it must be fair to those that don't believe it morally wrong to be in a same sex relationship. Religious freedom is a first amendment right, we are in discussion of rights not morality and that was the purpose of my first response. My religious beliefs are not law to the entire country, especially one that is so diverse.
LyTe684
by Member on Nov. 26, 2012 at 12:38 PM


Quoting Alysse24:

I strongly agree.  It's about equal rights for all Americans.


Insulin is not a cure, it's life support.

Mel0dy
by Member on Nov. 26, 2012 at 1:07 PM

Wow............. 

Quoting SlapItHigh:

I will teach my children the truth which is that marriage is only possible for one man and one woman.  I will pray that you will come to find the Lord eventually and that you will teach the same truth to your children, hopefully with better language than you present here.

Quoting Mel0dy:

Lmfao I can't believe people still think this way. I hope you dont teach your children that BULLSHIT

Quoting SlapItHigh:


Quoting Mel0dy:

 

Quoting SlapItHigh:

I strongly disagree


May I ask why? How does it affect you if people of the same sex want to get maried?

Because marriage is only possible for one man and one woman.  In order for same sex marriage to exist, the definiton of marriage would have to be changed.  I do not agree that social pressure should change the meaning of a social institution that effects the greater good.  It's already effecting people.  One example, a family was sued and forced to pay $$$$$ for not allowing a same-sex marriage to take place at their religious bed and breakfast.  They had to go into debt and choose between becoming an accessory to mortal sin and risking their eternal salvation or shutting down their family business.  They chose the latter.




SlapItHigh
by on Nov. 26, 2012 at 1:53 PM

What was the point of stating that you are Catholic from the start?  Why do you call yourself Catholic if you oppose her teachings and oppose upholding the meaning of life given to us by God?  

Homosexuals can retain their equal rights and they are and have always been free to get married but why would they want to join themselves to a person of the opposite sex?  That's what marriage is and always has been.  Allowing them to have a legal union with a person of the same sex would not give them equal rights but instead would give them special rights and thereby taking away the rights of everyone else to retain the definition of marriage.  

You can't live other people's lives for them but you don't have to support leglisation that is harmful to them and to society as a whole.   Remember:

"The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself."

It's clear that you haven't read any of the links I provided and that's your choice.  Only know you have entered beyond the "I just didn't know" territory into the "I know but I refuse to learn/accept" territory which are very very different lands.  I would encourage you to think hard on that because willfully rejection of the Word of God is not to be done lightly.

There's no need to use so many strawman agruments and red herrings.  No one is saying to beat anyone over the head with anything.  I am saying that you have already been commanded to oppose the legal same-sex marriage and abortion.  This requires no beating and no disrespect.  This on requires you to use words and political vote to oppose such things.  That's easy and there's no need to shirk your responsibilities in favor of subjective cultural relatism.  Yeah, shirk...that's the wording of the church:

The principles contained in the present Note are intended to shed light on one of the most important aspects of the unity of Christian life: coherence between faith and life, Gospel and culture, as recalled by the Second Vatican Council. The Council exhorted Christians «to fulfill their duties faithfully in the spirit of the Gospel. It is a mistake to think that, because we have here no lasting city, but seek the city which is to come, we are entitled to shirk our earthly responsibilities; this is to forget that by our faith we are bound all the more to fulfill these responsibilities according to the vocation of each... May Christians...be proud of the opportunity to carry out their earthly activity in such a way as to integrate human, domestic, professional, scientific and technical enterprises with religious values, under whose supreme direction all things are ordered to the glory of God».[31]

Quoting Shelly126:

I am not speaking from pride, nor am I speaking FOR the Catholic church on it's beliefs on homosexuality or abortion or any other of it's teachings and doctrines. I am speaking about the rights for same sex marriage which have nothing to do with religious beliefs if those homosexual people are not Catholic, Christian or if they are and still choose their lifestyle. It is THIER choice to live that lifestyle and it is not the countries right to deny them the same legal benefits heterosexual marrige affords because it is against the church's teachings. I can live my life the way I see fit and morally correct, I cannot live other people's lives and make them believe something they care not to or choose to ignore. I'm certain many people change their views and their ways but many people are happy in their religious beliefs or non belief just as I am happy in mine, as I said we all have sin all I can do is repent for my offenses against God, ask for his grace and salvation and continue to live my life through prayer and love, I do not have to hit people over the head with a bible to change their ways. I will not try to convert my Hindu friends or my Jewish friends or even my Muslim friends, I would not want to be in their company and have them try to convert me. I am not afraid of things that are different, they do not shake the foundation of my faith, while I choose not to engage in the sinful acts we spoke of, I cannot condem others for it, it is not my place. I can pray for them but I cannot change it.
To answer your question of slavery, no I don't feel the same way, that is torment and brutality against humanity and entirely different from same sex marriage. As I said there are many reasons a woman would have an abortion, while it is against the catholic church, and not something I would personally have, a woman's life could be @ stake I do not think that is a reason to judge or condemn.
While I appreciate your knowledge of scripture and Vatican laws, I don't need it beat into me for the salvation of my soul. Nor do I feel I need to knock on doors, or preach to convert all others who see differently. I live a decent, moral life, I pray, volunteer, go to church and am active in charities in several nearby communities, i try to be tolerant and in doing so cannot strong arm people into seeing things the way I do. In a country so diverse it must be fair to those that don't believe it morally wrong to be in a same sex relationship. Religious freedom is a first amendment right, we are in discussion of rights not morality and that was the purpose of my first response. My religious beliefs are not law to the entire country, especially one that is so diverse.


OliviasMommy611
by on Nov. 26, 2012 at 3:35 PM
Happy to oblige.

Quoting SlapItHigh:

You think it's funny that I hold you accountable for your own words in every debate?  You've proven again here that this debate tactic is good, by your inability to answer the questions asked.  You've made my case for me.  


Quoting OliviasMommy611:

I had to chuckle that every debate we get in, you throw my words back at me. Quite the tactic, eh? I'm not going to debate this. I see we both have our veiws(no matter how narrow minded). I also don't know who Mrs.Miller is. I quoted sonata.



Quoting SlapItHigh:

And how would you know what someone else meant?  According to you it's "bizarre" and "reaching" to ask someone if x, y or z is included when they say that anyone should be able to do something.  Why is that?  I think that's quite telling!  And I will again point out that I asked Mrs.Miller the same thing and she agreed that this was what she meant -- that family members should be able to marry each other b/c who is she to tell anyone else what they can do.  At least her position makes more sense as it's more consistent.



Quoting OliviasMommy611:

Lol :) I know how bizarre. Obviously, that's not what she meant.





Quoting lilcaesarsmama:

you know what lady? you have a poor attitude towards the subject. i think your reply is the most absurd i've read in awhile. of course she doesnt mean a mother and daughter should get married.



Quoting SlapItHigh:

Ok, so a mom should be able to get married to her 18 yo daughter?  Two 40 yo brothers should be able to marry each other?




Quoting Sonata8:

Yes 




Quoting SlapItHigh:




Any consenting adults?  




Quoting Sonata8:




I have no problem with it. It doesn't matter if I "agree" with it or not, consenting adults should be allowed to marry whoever they want without interference from the government.








 








Posted on CafeMom Mobile
OliviasMommy611
by on Nov. 26, 2012 at 3:37 PM
1 mom liked this
Well
Said.


Quoting Shelly126:

I am not speaking from pride, nor am I speaking FOR the Catholic church on it's beliefs on homosexuality or abortion or any other of it's teachings and doctrines. I am speaking about the rights for same sex marriage which have nothing to do with religious beliefs if those homosexual people are not Catholic, Christian or if they are and still choose their lifestyle. It is THIER choice to live that lifestyle and it is not the countries right to deny them the same legal benefits heterosexual marrige affords because it is against the church's teachings. I can live my life the way I see fit and morally correct, I cannot live other people's lives and make them believe something they care not to or choose to ignore. I'm certain many people change their views and their ways but many people are happy in their religious beliefs or non belief just as I am happy in mine, as I said we all have sin all I can do is repent for my offenses against God, ask for his grace and salvation and continue to live my life through prayer and love, I do not have to hit people over the head with a bible to change their ways. I will not try to convert my Hindu friends or my Jewish friends or even my Muslim friends, I would not want to be in their company and have them try to convert me. I am not afraid of things that are different, they do not shake the foundation of my faith, while I choose not to engage in the sinful acts we spoke of, I cannot condem others for it, it is not my place. I can pray for them but I cannot change it.

To answer your question of slavery, no I don't feel the same way, that is torment and brutality against humanity and entirely different from same sex marriage. As I said there are many reasons a woman would have an abortion, while it is against the catholic church, and not something I would personally have, a woman's life could be @ stake I do not think that is a reason to judge or condemn.

While I appreciate your knowledge of scripture and Vatican laws, I don't need it beat into me for the salvation of my soul. Nor do I feel I need to knock on doors, or preach to convert all others who see differently. I live a decent, moral life, I pray, volunteer, go to church and am active in charities in several nearby communities, i try to be tolerant and in doing so cannot strong arm people into seeing things the way I do. In a country so diverse it must be fair to those that don't believe it morally wrong to be in a same sex relationship. Religious freedom is a first amendment right, we are in discussion of rights not morality and that was the purpose of my first response. My religious beliefs are not law to the entire country, especially one that is so diverse.
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Shelly126
by Michele on Nov. 26, 2012 at 4:29 PM
Quoting SlapItHigh:


Certainly beating someone over the head with a bible is not actually a physical beating, but a term......"bible beater" and no I didn't read anynof the links but not because I care not to but I don't have the time to devote to really reading the information, I have two 2yr olds that are sick and sneak in a bit of cafe mom here an there through the day. but I said I was catholic because it was implied that someone who is a Christian or Catholic should never be for same sex marriage and I do not believe that to be the case,I don't believe that I need to impose my religious beliefs on anyone else. Just as I don't believe you should speak for an entire religious group that may not feel the same way you do and do not believe their souls to be in peril because they are not pointing their finger at an entire group of people. And I have already stated I am not in any way swayed by popular opinion, while I may not enter into a gay relationship because I do not believe in it, or I have never or don't think I would ever have an abortion, I don't think that they should be illegal. I believe that in a diverse country with multicultres and religions it is impossible for the laws of the church to run the government. That has nothing to do with my faith nor does it sway my decisions on how I choose to live my life.
Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)