Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

Mom Confessions Mom Confessions

What do you think of this? 9-11, Atheists, Christians.

Posted by Anonymous   + Show Post

As a non-religious person, I view this as art, albeit Christian in nature. I don't understand how it is offensive to Atheists, as a piece of art. Interesting debate, weigh in.

Posted by Anonymous on Aug. 18, 2012 at 10:46 AM
Replies (111-120):
TSNDDY
by Emerald Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:21 PM
art/ärt/
Noun:
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.
Synonyms:
craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack
Wikipedia Dictionary.com
Answers.com Merriam-Webster

How is that art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..

I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.


Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Anonymous
by Anonymous 1 - Original Poster on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:22 PM
1 mom liked this

Yes, they trimmed up the edges.

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

So in other words it was cut, or trimmed if you prefer. I get that it was found as a cross beam, I'm just saying it's to perfectly clean cut to have been found exactly as it stands.

Quoting Anonymous:

It was cleaned up. It was pulled, cleaned up and then displayed.

Quoting Anonymous:

I agree. Plus the lines are perfect.

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

Yes, I read the story. It's too perfect not tohave been cut. IMO

Quoting ccnstanczak:

 it was FOUND by excavator named Frank Silecchia found it on Sept. 13, 2001, two days after the terrorist attacks.

it was written on victims names, and rescuer teams etc.

it was then removed and put on a concrete pedestal.

 

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

You can tell by looking at it, it was cut.

Quoting ccnstanczak:

 Actually no it wasnt. it was a cross beam. when the building collapsed it was found in the blasted wreckage 2 days after the attacks.

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

Someone cut a beam to be shaped like a cross.

Quoting wittyscreenname:

Isn't it just the way the beams were or something?

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like someone went and made it and put it there.....


 


 






epoh
by The Enzyme Helicase on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM
I don't mind it being there.
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
srhart
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM

One of the best things about living in this country is that we are supposed to be entitled to our own opinions and worship or not worship whom and what we please how we please. Even among Christians, like myself, people who say we follow the same God, there are differences. Here's the thing... we should, as Americans, be conditioned to see other people's beliefs and religious symbolism and not be offended because that's the right of every single person in this country. We are taught this from a young age, supposedly.

I'm a Christian and I don't get offended because Wiccan people like to put out a pentagram or because I see a mosque in my small town or because there's a shrine to Buddah in my favorite Thai restaraunt or because my atheist neighbor thinks I'm crazy because I do believe in God and teach my children about Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Even the cross holds different symbolism for everyone... to some it means nothing, and yet, to others, it's offensive because it's seen as an idol, even among some Christian groups, rather than a picture of what Jesus did. People get so offended because they don't agree that they neglect to have respect for other people's beliefs and opinions, yet they want everyone else to respect THEIR beliefs and opinions... What the heck? Live and let live, folks. Love everybody, regardless of their opinions and beliefs. Our world would be a peaceful place if we could just find an appreciation for each other as people.

I don't think that the presence or absence of a cross adds or detracts from the memorial. Surely, there was at least one person in the towers who would have appreciated a cross. Why not just see it as what it is: honoring the memory of the people who passed in the attack. Peace.

UgtaBkdnMe
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM
1 mom liked this

I'm with you, a cross beam shaped like a cross beam is not a miricle.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/
Noun:
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.
Synonyms:
craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack
Wikipedia Dictionary.com
Answers.com Merriam-Webster

How is that art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..

I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.



Anonymous
by Anonymous 1 - Original Poster on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/
Noun:
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.
Synonyms:
craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack
Wikipedia Dictionary.com
Answers.com Merriam-Webster

How is that art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..

I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.



Aichia
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:25 PM
It's scrap metal imo, the atheist who are suing are just being asses imo
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
TSNDDY
by Emerald Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Just because I consider a Tree beautiful and awe inspiring doesn't mean I can put it in a museum and label it as art

Quoting Anonymous:

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/

Noun:

The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"

Works produced by such skill and imagination.

Synonyms:

craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack

Wikipedia Dictionary.com

Answers.com Merriam-Webster



How is that art?




Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..


I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.



Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Ms.Pteranodon
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:28 PM

I also live in a city full of of Baptist Church evolution is still taught in the schools because it is ILLEGAL for public school teachers to go against the STATE curriculum. 

Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

Dude, just because it is supposed to be taught it does not mean it was. This was 10 years ago. Look at how much has changed in 10 years. Evolution is damn near deemed as a religion around here. Teachers are not forced to teach it here. Also, I live in bible country. She didn't get fired (even though several parents complained. They were told that if it went against her beliefs as a christian then she did not have to teach it and that if the creationism idea wasn't allowed to be taught then evolution shouldn't be either), nor did the preaching civics teacher. In fact, they're both still teachers at the high school I went to. In a city full of Baptist and Protestant churches, yes. The majority does rule.


Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Dude, your wrong... it is a state standard for your state. Christian or not evolution is suppose to be taught in schools, your teach could have been fired. 

http://www.arkansased.org/public/userfiles/Learning_Services/Curriculum%20and%20Instruction/DLSCIFWSI_biology_9-12_06.pdf

 Strand: Heredity and Evolution

                      Standard 6: Students shall examine the development of the theory of biological evolution.

HE.6.B.1  Compare and contrast Lamarck’s explanation of evolution with Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection 

HE.6.B.2 Recognize that evolution involves a change in allele frequencies in a population across successive generations 


HE.6.B.3 Analyze the effects of mutations and the resulting variations within a population in terms of natural selection 


HE.6.B.4 Illustrate mass extinction events using a time line 

HE.6.B.5 Evaluate evolution in terms of evidence as found in the following:  

•  fossil record 

•  DNA analysis 

•  artificial selection 

•  morphology 

•  embryology 

•  viral evolution

•  geographic distribution of related species

•  antibiotic and pesticide resistance in various organisms  

HE.6.B.6 Compare the processes of relative dating and radio


 
Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

I live in Arkansas. Majority rules here. That majority is Christians and they run our state





Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Ummm. I'm pretty sure it is apart of state standards...However, teachers are taught to teach it as a theory and how the theory being suggested changed the course of history. 

I bet your teacher could have been fired. 

 



Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

Its not taught where I live. The teacher gets to choose if he or she will teach it or not. My biology teacher told us if we wanted to learn about it then we needed to research it for ourselves.








Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Yes but you can't remove religion from history just so the two can be separate. Just like how the theory of evolution is taught in schools. 

 




Quoting Anonymous:

Thought religion and government were supposed to be separate?











Quoting miss_lisa:

Many museums are run by the government and have religious pieces in them. If the piece is a part of the history that museum is representing it belongs there regardless of any religious significance.









Quoting Anonymous:

If it's public land, it shouldn't be there. End of story.














alwayskk
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM

But they're not using cinderblocks and there is a reason why they are not using cinderblocks. 

No, I'm not arguing the underlined part. We don't know all of the artifacts that were submitted or considered for inclusion. I was saying that IF there aren't any other religious artifacts, there aren't any other and we can't just simply make them up. I wasn't using this as one of MY points, I was simply responding to your claim that the group doesn't actually care about equality because if they did, they would be fighting to include other artifacts.

Although, to be frank, this is NOT a religious artifact. Let's not disrespect religion by claiming this is a religious artifact. It's a piece of art that is religious in nature and could one day be considered a religious artifact. The term religious artifact implies some sort of antiquity. :)

Quoting miss_lisa:

If people who were involved in the rescue efforts and were there during that time used the cinder blocks to represent hope and they were what they felt were a major part of their story then I would 100% support them putting it in there.

Why is that silly? You claimed that this was an attempt at exclusion from Christians but now you're arguing that any artifacts to include are already there. So... how exactly are they trying to exclude other religions if they've allowed any other artificats already available there? Have they actually denied other religions from displaying things from the site or that were involved? You can't argue that it's exclusion then say they're not excluding things.

I'd still be interested in seeing the cross that meant something to others even if it means nothing to me. Now, if they were trying to change the religion of those on board or change the stories of non-Christians that were involved then ya, I'd have a problem. But arguing that a cross that was found in the rubble and meant something to hundreds of volunteers is Christianizing 9/11 is simply not true. It was a part of what happened, you can say it's naive but I just choose not to read into everything and take it as an attack. I try and discern the difference between people actually trying to attack other religions and people simply being oversensitive. I think this qualifies as the latter. This particular cross on it's own is not Christianizing the events of that day, it's something that played a role in the stories of people involved therefore it belongs. In order to purposely Christianize the events they'd need to change and remove stories that weren't Christian in nature. That I'd have a problem with.

Quoting alwayskk:

It's a part of the building and that's all it is. YOu don't see them taking random cinder blocks and putting that on display as art because it was once part of the building.

Now you're just being silly with the underlined part. If there are artifacts to include, they're there. If there are none, there are none, or were none found.


Honestly, I think you're being naive and that you're way too smart for this. They've been trying to Christianize 9-11 since the tragedy happened. This is just one example but everyone keeps pulling the wool over their eyes because it's so much easier to say, "These damn arrogant atheists" than to think about the real issue at hand which is the way that history has been intentionally shaped for thousands of years and continues to be so....

Quoting miss_lisa:

Other religious symbols don't have to be gigantic to be there. The cross is gigantic, but again it was an actual piece of the building so... well obviously it's gigantic.

It's a part of the building, it's a part of what happened and it represents the stories of hundreds (possibly thousands) of people were involved with what happened that day. It belongs in a museum regardless of it's religious significance. Whether it's a memorial museum or other type of museum doesn't really matter, it is a part of the history of what happened. If the atheists are truly concerned about inclusion and not exclusion they'd sue to have other large pieces relevant to what happened that day with religious significance to be represented, NOT having one removed. They're no better than the people they're criticizing by trying to specifically exclude one religion from the museum. 

Quoting alwayskk:

Of course religion is a part of history. No one is denying that. This is not just a museum, it is a memorial museum. I don't have a link to prove anything, neither do you. I reviewed the website and I've been to the memorial.

There are no other gigantic religious pieces that are on display and most definitely not one that is a main feature as this cross is. That is what people here seem to be not understanding. This is not some small cross displayed in a corner along with lots of other religious artifacts; it's a main display and it's not a personal effect! Of course a personal effect would be displayed. 



Quoting miss_lisa:

After viewing their website I find it highly unlikely that there aren't any other religious symbols in that museum. Can you provide a link stating that the cross is the only religious symbol allowed?

No it doesn't matter to me. Religion is a part of history. I don't believe in Christianity but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the stories of those who used that cross as part of their rescue or recovery efforts.


Quoting alwayskk:

Yes, it has been talked about at length.

I understand what a museum is. I also understand motivations even if they're hidden. They're trying to Christianize this memorial which is incredibly disrespectful. Does it make a difference to you that the word Jesus was carved on it and it hung in a church for several years before placed at the museum?

Quoting miss_lisa:

Do you know that they don't have any other religious symbols or found any other religious symbols in the rubble to display?



To me and you it's just rubble, but to some of those who were there during that time it was more than that. In a museum their stories have a right to be represented as well as others. That's the purpose of the museum.










Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

close Join now to connect to
other members!
Connect with Facebook or Sign Up Using Email

Already Joined? LOG IN