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What do you think of this? 9-11, Atheists, Christians.

Posted by Anonymous   + Show Post

As a non-religious person, I view this as art, albeit Christian in nature. I don't understand how it is offensive to Atheists, as a piece of art. Interesting debate, weigh in.

Posted by Anonymous on Aug. 18, 2012 at 10:46 AM
Replies (121-130):
kitty8199
by Ruby Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM
No one made it. The beams ended up like that on their own. If someone made it I could see it being wrong.
It is an artifact, it was found. Just the same as if they found other rubble in other religious symbols of other religions, it should be there, too.
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Mamaof3and1tobe
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM
Fort Smith is a black hole. You can't make enough to move out unless you're a lawyer, preacher, or a doctor. Most of us call it the Bermuda Triangle of Arkansas


Quoting Anonymous:

Oh, how awful. I wouldn't want to live in a city that proudly perpetuated ignorance.

Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

Dude, just because it is supposed to be taught it does not mean it was. This was 10 years ago. Look at how much has changed in 10 years. Evolution is damn near deemed as a religion around here. Teachers are not forced to teach it here. Also, I live in bible country. She didn't get fired (even though several parents complained. They were told that if it went against her beliefs as a christian then she did not have to teach it and that if the creationism idea wasn't allowed to be taught then evolution shouldn't be either), nor did the preaching civics teacher. In fact, they're both still teachers at the high school I went to. In a city full of Baptist and Protestant churches, yes. The majority does rule.







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eztwins
by Gold Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM

It is not exclusionary.  It is just what was found.  They did not find something that could represent another religion (although I don't look at this cross as symbol of religion just a interesting piece of rubble, not all that significant seeing how the beams were layed out to construct the building.} and state it can't be displayed.  That would be exclusionary-excluding another artifact.  It just is what it is.  Had they gone out of their way to construct a cross to be displayed at the musuem-absolutely would have been wrong and then endorsing a religious belief over others. 

The definition of tolerance is the sympathy or INDULGENCE for beliefs or practices that differ or are conflicting to ones own. 

Based on the official definition I would say this is exactly what the acceptance of this artific would constitute.  Athiest don't believe in god, jesus, etc but being TOLERANT or indulging the comfort that piece of rubble my bring to many is the point.  It doesn't hurt them but brings comfort to others, why cause a ruffle. 

Quoting alwayskk:

A personal effect is a personal belonging. I understand that you're saying that the cross has become person to everyone but it's not a personal effect. Not in the sense the Lissa was arguing.

Yes, I agree that it is not just for those who died. I also agree that it should be the place of religious tolerance. Being exclusionary is not religious tolerance.

I don't understand why the term "tolerance" has become synonymous with "everything goes".

*Sorry, weeding through replies.

Quoting eztwins:

It is a personal effect-to the hundrends of people who where there that day and were involved in the rescue mission.  My father was there that day and was there for weeks after.  He had to stand by and listen to the radios of his collegues go silent and had to stand by for hours as the smoke cleared and they were given the okay to begin looking.  He stood on the pile of rubble which he described as the "gate of hell".  It is personal effect of the first responders.  Cross or not it was something found in that disaster.  If a piece of  rubble had created a star of david or the symbol of islam and people had written on it I would defend its place in the museaum also.  The memorial is not just for those that died, it is for the people who survived and are left dealing with the ramifications of that day forever.  And yes it will be a place for the public and future generations. 

Just like the controversy of the mosque being built a couple of blocks from the site was ridiculous so is this.  Of all the places in the world this should be the site that exemplifies religious  tolerance.  Did we not learn anything. 

Quoting alwayskk:

Of course religion is a part of history. No one is denying that. This is not just a museum, it is a memorial museum. I don't have a link to prove anything, neither do you. I reviewed the website and I've been to the memorial.

There are no other gigantic religious pieces that are on display and most definitely not one that is a main feature as this cross is. That is what people here seem to be not understanding. This is not some small cross displayed in a corner along with lots of other religious artifacts; it's a main display and it's not a personal effect! Of course a personal effect would be displayed. 



Quoting miss_lisa:

After viewing their website I find it highly unlikely that there aren't any other religious symbols in that museum. Can you provide a link stating that the cross is the only religious symbol allowed?

No it doesn't matter to me. Religion is a part of history. I don't believe in Christianity but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the stories of those who used that cross as part of their rescue or recovery efforts.


Quoting alwayskk:

Yes, it has been talked about at length.

I understand what a museum is. I also understand motivations even if they're hidden. They're trying to Christianize this memorial which is incredibly disrespectful. Does it make a difference to you that the word Jesus was carved on it and it hung in a church for several years before placed at the museum?

Quoting miss_lisa:

Do you know that they don't have any other religious symbols or found any other religious symbols in the rubble to display?



To me and you it's just rubble, but to some of those who were there during that time it was more than that. In a museum their stories have a right to be represented as well as others. That's the purpose of the museum.









Ms.Pteranodon
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:29 PM

Were you not just saying 5 eminutes ago that it was cut to be shaped like that?? 

 

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

I'm with you, a cross beam shaped like a cross beam is not a miricle.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/
Noun:
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.
Synonyms:
craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack
Wikipedia Dictionary.com
Answers.com Merriam-Webster

How is that art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..

I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.




Heather_the_Mom
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

Whoa... I wasn't it.  When I said "Atheists" I was not referring to all, sorry if you took it that way.  I meant the group who are protesting this.  Which, should be obvious considering it is what the post is about.  Next time I will make sure to put, "some atheists" or "these atheists".

The Atheists and Agnostics I know are not like this, and could care less.  

Quoting jessi2girls:


Quoting Heather_the_Mom:

I don't see an issue with it.  And, quite frankly, I don't see why Athiests find it offensive.  If you do not believe in a higher power, why do you care?  No one is trying to inflict their beliefs on you with this cross... Some see it as art, others see it as a sign that God is real, and others just see a hunk of metal... I don't get it.

A SMALL GROUP OF ATHEISTS!! Not all atheists!

In fact a LARGE MAJORITY of atheists do not find it offensive, nor do they have an issue with it..

I wouldn't compare WBC and their hateful protests to the rest of the Christian population, so please don't compare this group to the rest of us.


UgtaBkdnMe
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM

It was cut FML, they found a cross beam shaped like a cross (shocking) and trimmed it and put it on a pedistal. It was not found perfectly shaped.

Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Were you not just saying 5 eminutes ago that it was cut to be shaped like that?? 

 

Quoting UgtaBkdnMe:

I'm with you, a cross beam shaped like a cross beam is not a miricle.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/
Noun:
The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
Works produced by such skill and imagination.
Synonyms:
craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack
Wikipedia Dictionary.com
Answers.com Merriam-Webster

How is that art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..

I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.





Anonymous
by Anonymous 12 on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM
Im an atheist and any religious symbol that is being displayed in a museum or somewhere other than a church, is offensive to me (unless of course religion is the point of the exhibit). I dont expect any religious person to even begin or want to understand so i say this....as a christian how would you feel if a symbol of the muslim cresent and star was found and displayed, or the hand of jainism, or the hindu lotus, or any other religious symbol. I bet you'd see it as a pointless and inaccurate representation of the events that happened, you might even be offended by seeing these symbols in the museum. Bottom line none of them belong, period!
singlemom1208
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM
I would. If the metal was found in the shape of the star of David and brought comfort and piece to people during that tragity, I would defend it being there. Or any other religious symbol.

Quoting tessamalk:

I'm an atheist; I don't really care if the cross is there.

But I do have to wonder, would the Christian community be defending the statue if it were a symbol of a different religion, or would they want that removed?

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alwayskk
by on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

I think it is exclusionary in the same way that having a public prayer before the ceremony would have been exclusionary. 

I don't agree with your definition of tolerance. Indulgence is an invitation, a welcoming. Tolerance is not an invitation, it is endurance. Endurance is not indulgence.

I think we have endured for thousands of years now.


Quoting eztwins:

It is not exclusionary.  It is just what was found.  They did not find something that could represent another religion (although I don't look at this cross as symbol of religion just a interesting piece of rubble, not all that significant seeing how the beams were layed out to construct the building.} and state it can't be displayed.  That would be exclusionary-excluding another artifact.  It just is what it is.  Had they gone out of their way to construct a cross to be displayed at the musuem-absolutely would have been wrong and then endorsing a religious belief over others. 

The definition of tolerance is the sympathy or INDULGENCE for beliefs or practices that differ or are conflicting to ones own. 

Based on the official definition I would say this is exactly what the acceptance of this artific would constitute.  Athiest don't believe in god, jesus, etc but being TOLERANT or indulging the comfort that piece of rubble my bring to many is the point.  It doesn't hurt them but brings comfort to others, why cause a ruffle. 


Sweet_Faith
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In life and n the end all that really matters is the truth.
Today at 6:03 AM
by Ruby Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM
1 mom liked this

So would I:)

Quoting singlemom1208:

I would. If the metal was found in the shape of the star of David and brought comfort and piece to people during that tragity, I would defend it being there. Or any other religious symbol.

Quoting tessamalk:

I'm an atheist; I don't really care if the cross is there.

But I do have to wonder, would the Christian community be defending the statue if it were a symbol of a different religion, or would they want that removed?


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