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What do you think of this? 9-11, Atheists, Christians.

Posted by Anonymous   + Show Post

As a non-religious person, I view this as art, albeit Christian in nature. I don't understand how it is offensive to Atheists, as a piece of art. Interesting debate, weigh in.

Posted by Anonymous on Aug. 18, 2012 at 10:46 AM
Replies (131-140):
Anonymous
by Anonymous - Original Poster on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM

Who are you to say what is and what isn't art?

Quoting TSNDDY:

Just because I consider a Tree beautiful and awe inspiring doesn't mean I can put it in a museum and label it as art

Quoting Anonymous:

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/

Noun:

The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"

Works produced by such skill and imagination.

Synonyms:

craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack

Wikipedia Dictionary.com

Answers.com Merriam-Webster



How is that art?




Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..


I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.




TSNDDY
by Ruby Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:51 PM
How do you decide what isn't art?
How would you define art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Who are you to say what is and what isn't art?

Quoting TSNDDY:

Just because I consider a Tree beautiful and awe inspiring doesn't mean I can put it in a museum and label it as art



Quoting Anonymous:

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/


Noun:


The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"


Works produced by such skill and imagination.


Synonyms:


craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack


Wikipedia Dictionary.com


Answers.com Merriam-Webster





How is that art?






Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..



I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.




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Mamaof3and1tobe
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM
Do you live in Fort Smith, Arkansas? I'm going to assume you do not. Marijuana is illegal and people still smoke it. Drunk driving is illgeal and people still leave bars drunk. Child pornography is illegal but people are being busted with it.

THE STATE DOES NOT FORCE TEACHERS TO TEACH THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION. How hard is that to understand? I get it. It is ILLEGAL but not enforced.


Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

I also live in a city full of of Baptist Church evolution is still taught in the schools because it is ILLEGAL for public school teachers to go against the STATE curriculum. 


Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

Dude, just because it is supposed to be taught it does not mean it was. This was 10 years ago. Look at how much has changed in 10 years. Evolution is damn near deemed as a religion around here. Teachers are not forced to teach it here. Also, I live in bible country. She didn't get fired (even though several parents complained. They were told that if it went against her beliefs as a christian then she did not have to teach it and that if the creationism idea wasn't allowed to be taught then evolution shouldn't be either), nor did the preaching civics teacher. In fact, they're both still teachers at the high school I went to. In a city full of Baptist and Protestant churches, yes. The majority does rule.





Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Dude, your wrong... it is a state standard for your state. Christian or not evolution is suppose to be taught in schools, your teach could have been fired. 

http://www.arkansased.org/public/userfiles/Learning_Services/Curriculum%20and%20Instruction/DLSCIFWSI_biology_9-12_06.pdf

 Strand: Heredity and Evolution

                      Standard 6: Students shall examine the development of the theory of biological evolution.

HE.6.B.1  Compare and contrast Lamarck’s explanation of evolution with Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection 

HE.6.B.2 Recognize that evolution involves a change in allele frequencies in a population across successive generations 


HE.6.B.3 Analyze the effects of mutations and the resulting variations within a population in terms of natural selection 


HE.6.B.4 Illustrate mass extinction events using a time line 

HE.6.B.5 Evaluate evolution in terms of evidence as found in the following:  

•  fossil record 

•  DNA analysis 

•  artificial selection 

•  morphology 

•  embryology 

•  viral evolution

•  geographic distribution of related species

•  antibiotic and pesticide resistance in various organisms  

HE.6.B.6 Compare the processes of relative dating and radio


 

Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

I live in Arkansas. Majority rules here. That majority is Christians and they run our state








Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Ummm. I'm pretty sure it is apart of state standards...However, teachers are taught to teach it as a theory and how the theory being suggested changed the course of history. 

I bet your teacher could have been fired. 

 




Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

Its not taught where I live. The teacher gets to choose if he or she will teach it or not. My biology teacher told us if we wanted to learn about it then we needed to research it for ourselves.











Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Yes but you can't remove religion from history just so the two can be separate. Just like how the theory of evolution is taught in schools. 

 





Quoting Anonymous:

Thought religion and government were supposed to be separate?














Quoting miss_lisa:

Many museums are run by the government and have religious pieces in them. If the piece is a part of the history that museum is representing it belongs there regardless of any religious significance.











Quoting Anonymous:

If it's public land, it shouldn't be there. End of story.



















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Anonymous
by Anonymous - Original Poster on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:54 PM

Art is tricky to define for me, I can't come up with the exact box to put it in...but, I guess that's my point. 

I can feel when something is art. It's all subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

How do you decide what isn't art?
How would you define art?


Quoting Anonymous:

Who are you to say what is and what isn't art?

Quoting TSNDDY:

Just because I consider a Tree beautiful and awe inspiring doesn't mean I can put it in a museum and label it as art



Quoting Anonymous:

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/


Noun:


The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"


Works produced by such skill and imagination.


Synonyms:


craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack


Wikipedia Dictionary.com


Answers.com Merriam-Webster





How is that art?






Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..



I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.





TSNDDY
by Ruby Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 12:55 PM
So lack of definition would be all inclusive and anything anyone feels is art should and could be put on display?

Quoting Anonymous:

Art is tricky to define for me, I can't come up with the exact box to put it in...but, I guess that's my point. 

I can feel when something is art. It's all subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

How do you decide what isn't art?

How would you define art?




Quoting Anonymous:

Who are you to say what is and what isn't art?

Quoting TSNDDY:

Just because I consider a Tree beautiful and awe inspiring doesn't mean I can put it in a museum and label it as art





Quoting Anonymous:

Your problem is that you are defining art by the dictionary. One will never be able to explain art to someone who is limited by black and white.

Quoting TSNDDY:

art/ärt/



Noun:



The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"



Works produced by such skill and imagination.



Synonyms:



craft - skill - artifice - science - workmanship - knack



Wikipedia Dictionary.com



Answers.com Merriam-Webster







How is that art?








Quoting Anonymous:

Art is subjective.

Quoting TSNDDY:

It's not art it's a piece of the wreckage. I think it's silly to find such significance in it because pretty much all beams are cross beams..




I'm pretty sure there were 100s of pieces of wreckage that looked like a cross.





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Anonymous
by Anonymous on Aug. 18, 2012 at 1:00 PM

When something tragic happens, like the 9-11 event, those who believe in God are filled with Hope & Love. While non-believers mostly feel fear and are filled with confusion. It is a sign of Hope & Love to me. If it gets taken down, it get's taken down. Those atheists want to fight against a sign of Hope, Love and Unity that's their bad. God is and always will be.

LadyBugMom09
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 1:00 PM
I am a Christian and I wouldn't be offended if it were another religious symbol. I believe they have just as much right to display their religion as Christians do.


Quoting tessamalk:

I'm an atheist; I don't really care if the cross is there.

But I do have to wonder, would the Christian community be defending the statue if it were a symbol of a different religion, or would they want that removed?


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eztwins
by Silver Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM

Its not my definition of tolerance if you don't agree take it up with Mirriam webster.  Its the official dictionary definition.  IDK what to tell you about that.  And looking at accepting someone elses beliefs whether religious or sexual or just different as endurance is a rather negative way of looking at it.  Kinda glass half emply feel.  Indulgence seems much more positive.  We endure hardships, tolerating someones difference shouldn't be a hardship it should be humanity. 

And as far as public prayer well that is a purposeful religious action decided upon by the event organizers.  And yes that is overtly religious and exclusionary.  Adding a relic to a musuem is not the same thing.  The cross was not manufactured it was left behind from the buildings.  I don't think the building had a ulterior motive.  Its two pieces of metal manufactured in a cross beam structure for the construction of the skyscraper, no religious intentions.  When they fell clearly the support survived.  others than gave it a significance that was not there.  People are choosing to give it a meaning that it was not created for.  If it causes comfort whats the beef.  Its like those potatoe chips people find that they think have the face of christ.  Lays did not make religious chips most just think its a coincidence, others then worship the chip.  What can you do but indulge or tolerate those that think a pototoe chip is magical.

Quoting alwayskk:

I think it is exclusionary in the same way that having a public prayer before the ceremony would have been exclusionary. 

I don't agree with your definition of tolerance. Indulgence is an invitation, a welcoming. Tolerance is not an invitation, it is endurance. Endurance is not indulgence.

I think we have endured for thousands of years now.


Quoting eztwins:

It is not exclusionary.  It is just what was found.  They did not find something that could represent another religion (although I don't look at this cross as symbol of religion just a interesting piece of rubble, not all that significant seeing how the beams were layed out to construct the building.} and state it can't be displayed.  That would be exclusionary-excluding another artifact.  It just is what it is.  Had they gone out of their way to construct a cross to be displayed at the musuem-absolutely would have been wrong and then endorsing a religious belief over others. 

The definition of tolerance is the sympathy or INDULGENCE for beliefs or practices that differ or are conflicting to ones own. 

Based on the official definition I would say this is exactly what the acceptance of this artific would constitute.  Athiest don't believe in god, jesus, etc but being TOLERANT or indulging the comfort that piece of rubble my bring to many is the point.  It doesn't hurt them but brings comfort to others, why cause a ruffle. 



LadyBugMom09
by Platinum Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 1:02 PM
It's art. Art, by its nature, is thought provoking and debatable.
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briansmommy2010
by Ruby Member on Aug. 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM

So the innocent Muslims, who were NOT extremists, and who lost their lives that day, shouldn't get the same type of memorial as Christians?

How many people have Christians killed in the name of religion?

Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Because the whole damn thing was orchestrated by Muslim extremist. 

Quoting Anonymous:

 Why? A lot of innocent muslims died that day.

Quoting Ms.Pteranodon:

Maybe because someone from that religion didn't make one?

 I wouldn't be offended if a Jewish family had lost a loved one and made the Star of David, out of the rubble. The only religious symbol that I think would be offensive to 9-11 victims is Muslim symbols.. 

Quoting kaffedrikke:

Thats why some so called Christians drive me batty. Obviously it wae not just Christians who died on that day. Where is their memorial?


Quoting Mamaof3and1tobe:

This.




Quoting tessamalk:

I'm an atheist; I don't really care if the cross is there.

But I do have to wonder, would the Christian community be defending the statue if it were a symbol of a different religion, or would they want that removed?




 



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