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Pro Life with exceptions IS NOT Pro Choice! ****ETA****

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IMO, if someone wants abortion illegal, even with exceptions, you are still PL. I get so annoyed when a PL person says "I think abortion should be allowed for rape, incest, maternal health" and someone comes back with "That makes you Pro Choice". It doesn't, Pro Choice (again IMO) means giving women all their choices, freedom to choice regardless of reason. If you are only giving her choices under special circumstances, how is that "Pro Choice"? I get that it isn't entirely Pro Life either, it is somewhere in the middle. 


**ETA**

From the responses, it seems many people don't/can't separate their personal feelings from their political views. So, to be sure we are all "on the same page", lets keep the opinions to your political views on abortion. Do you feel the federal or state government should ban it? Place stricter regulations on it, that sort of thing. Ya now, how would YOU VOTE if the subject appeared on your ballot?


“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed”.

-Albert Einstein

by on Oct. 12, 2012 at 1:48 PM
Replies (461-470):
cleo_is_mine
by on Oct. 14, 2012 at 12:57 PM

Hey Pro-Lifers with no exception: 16 yo pregnant with cancer dies awaiting chemo because Dominican Republic bans abortion and no doctor would treat the cancer b/c  chemo could terminate pregnancy. Now pretend this is your daughter and tell me honestly you wouldnt take a different position? Some people are just blind to the matters that go beyond their own experience. but just because a situation never crossed your mind (like having a pregnant teen in your household?) , it doesnt mean that it is not happening all over the world.  Please please, try to take your minds off of all preceived concepts and imagine, is it ok for let a cancer patient die because chemo cant be given if she is pregnant? because that's what an abortion ban is. NO ABORTION. WHATSOEVER. in under ANY circumstance. That's just nuts! I am pro choice but I'll side with pro lifers with exception any day before 100%pro lifers.

Anonymous
by Anonymous 28 on Oct. 14, 2012 at 12:59 PM

So your heartbeat arguments just bologna you thought you would throw and see if it sticks?Even though an early "heart beat" is barely more then a muscle growing and spasming..

Double homicide? First , the women gets to make the choice not someone else ...like say a murderer. Secondly it's often not considered murder of a "Baby" if the women is early enough in her pregnancy to  have chosen an abortion. These cut off lines change from state to state but simply being a pregnant murder victim does not automatically mean 2 charges of homicide. ( another red herring?) 

Are human beings an  endangered species ? Do we get charged for killing fertilised chicken eggs ?


Quoting jessw2010:  

no, it's still a developing baby. it amazes me that if you murder a pregnant woman it's a double homocide, but the mother has the "right" to kill her own baby and if you "kill" a bald eagle egg you get a large fine. . . . .really, we value a bald eagle egg more than human life?

Quoting Anonymous:

So would abortion be okay if it happens before a heart beat?

Quoting jessw2010:

yeah dandruff has human dna, but not a heart beat or arms or legs. just because a baby can't live outside of the womb doesn't make it less of a person. . . . .you can argue that all you want, but that doesn't make you right. it's ignorant people like you that are ruining this country.

Quoting Anonymous:

dandruff has human DNA , so what? 

heartbeat alone doesn't make a newborn baby. They need to be able to live outside of the womb. There is a reason why a fetus is called a fetus and not called a newborn baby. 


Quoting jessw2010:

umm excuse me, if you looked at my sonogram when I was pregnant and then looked at the sonogram of a woman who was raped there would be no difference. so yes, it is a person worthy of protection,even if you were raped! the "fetus" still has a heartbeat and human dna. . . . .rape makes no difference!

Quoting Bellarose0212:

That's easier to defend than, "A fetus is a person and worthy of protection unless the mother didn't have consensual sex because if she did have consensual sex she should have kept her legs clothes or deal with the consequences. If she was raped, the fetus is no longer a person and no longer worthy of protection, even though the fetus is biologically and developmentally the same no matter how it was concieved." Incest is also difficult because in most cases of incest, the risk of any health issues with the child as a result of incest are slim. Also, how would they enforce those laws? Every woman who wanted an abortion could claim rape or incest and it would be hard/take to long to prove otherwise.Your exception is easier to prove, with documentation of an ectopic pregnancy, life threatening preeclampsia, cancer, etc. from a doctor.

Quoting AllofFive19:++

A fetus is a person and worthy of protection, until that protection threatens the life of the mother carrying that fetus. 

Quoting Bellarose0212:

Okay, but then you are saying that the fetus doesn't really have personhood and are making exceptions to what you deem murder.

A mother's mental health may or may not be in jeopardy because she was raped and may or may not be in jeopardy even if she had consensual sex (but has other obstacles in her life that might make a pregnancy traumatic, like domestic abuse or not enough to go around for her kids or extremely religious parents who may harm her). As soon as you are making exceptions based around life circumstances, it is about judging her life circumstances and deciding if those are good enough reasons to abort. If you are judging whether an abortion is justified, you are giving consenses that the fetus does not have personhood and is not always deserving of protection, as a born child would be. So, that is harder to defend than, a fetus is a person and always worthy of protection.









pittsburghnic
by New Member on Oct. 14, 2012 at 1:02 PM
First of all- please do not add your own commentary within another persons quote.
Secondly, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe a heart or heart beat ceases, then re-begins to become a "life sustaining" heartbeat. It's the same one, with the same function, right? If a woman is believed to be experiencing a miscarriage, the sonogram checks for a heart beat- indicating if the baby is ALIVE.
Regardless of this, even before the heartbeat is developed it is still a life form, growing and developing as we do our entire lives.
There are just some people too closed minded to respect a new perspective. I will pray for you.


Quoting Anonymous:


Quoting pittsburghnic:

How can you say it's NOT A BABY? Think about that. At only 6 weeks (before most woman know they are pregnant) the child has a heartbeat. This primitive heartbeat is not a life sustaining heart beat , besides a heartbeat alone does not make someone "Living"  , It can feel and move. @6 weeks? a   week fetus can NOT "feel" , feeling is actually very complicated and requires a nervous system and a functioning brain , both of which are not developed in a L week  fetus.  look into the timeline and details of a pregnancy I suggest you do so.. Before u state ur opinion, educate yourself thoroughly. Have you ever seen a sonogram early in pregnancy? This is when about 85% of woman turn away from their choice-- because they realize that they have a LIVING CHILD inside of them.





Quoting sunshinekid73:

Fetus =baby. Changing to a scientific term doesn't chance what it is or will be if given a chance.







Quoting Anonymous:

we aren't talking about a baby , it's a fetus no matter how much PL people try and change the facts.

and how many choices do you leave up to your babies? 

Quoting budgie1117:

I hate the term "pro-choice". The baby has NO choice at all, so their human right are violated. I think it would be clearer to say "pro-abortion".








Posted on CafeMom Mobile
ShanghaiTai
by on Oct. 14, 2012 at 1:08 PM

Regardless of your position on abortion, has anyone considered how the exception for rape will be implimented?  I'd bet at least one out of four women on this post have been raped.  1 out of 20 rapes are reported.  How many of those get a conviction?  I would be surprised if there was a single woman on this post whose rape resulted in a conviction.  

If the exception for rape requires a conviction, then for all practical purposes it doesn't exist.  I doubt they're going to take the victims word for it.


www.shanghaitai.com

Anonymous
by Anonymous 28 on Oct. 14, 2012 at 1:27 PM

first you don't get to dictate who replies to whatever you might post , you certainly didn't have to respond.

Who said anything about the heart stopping and re-starting? It matures and grows just as the egg , zygote and fetus will. And NO the early heartbeat doesn't have the same function as the fully developed heart does , the mothers body takes care of the fetus until the heart and other vital organs can ( if they develop properly) - sonograms indicate if the fetus is progressing along predictable lines or not. 

So before the heart beat it's still not okay to abort , is that what you are trying to say ? So why even bring up early heart activity? What does it come down to for you? Is it about souls and god?

Pray for yourself , maybe your god will see fit to help you become more open to having a difficult conversation without resorting to being self righteous? 


Quoting pittsburghnic:

First of all- please do not add your own commentary within another persons quote.
Secondly, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe a heart or heart beat ceases, then re-begins to become a "life sustaining" heartbeat. It's the same one, with the same function, right? If a woman is believed to be experiencing a miscarriage, the sonogram checks for a heart beat- indicating if the baby is ALIVE.
Regardless of this, even before the heartbeat is developed it is still a life form, growing and developing as we do our entire lives.
There are just some people too closed minded to respect a new perspective. I will pray for you.


Quoting Anonymous:


Quoting pittsburghnic:

How can you say it's NOT A BABY? Think about that. At only 6 weeks (before most woman know they are pregnant) the child has a heartbeat. This primitive heartbeat is not a life sustaining heart beat , besides a heartbeat alone does not make someone "Living"  , It can feel and move. @6 weeks? a   week fetus can NOT "feel" , feeling is actually very complicated and requires a nervous system and a functioning brain , both of which are not developed in a L week  fetus.  look into the timeline and details of a pregnancy I suggest you do so.. Before u state ur opinion, educate yourself thoroughly. Have you ever seen a sonogram early in pregnancy? This is when about 85% of woman turn away from their choice-- because they realize that they have a LIVING CHILD inside of them.





Quoting sunshinekid73:

Fetus =baby. Changing to a scientific term doesn't chance what it is or will be if given a chance.







Quoting Anonymous:

we aren't talking about a baby , it's a fetus no matter how much PL people try and change the facts.

and how many choices do you leave up to your babies? 

Quoting budgie1117:

I hate the term "pro-choice". The baby has NO choice at all, so their human right are violated. I think it would be clearer to say "pro-abortion".









Mackenzie40
by Platinum Member on Oct. 14, 2012 at 1:29 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting cleo_is_mine:

Hey Pro-Lifers with no exception: 16 yo pregnant with cancer dies awaiting chemo because Dominican Republic bans abortion and no doctor would treat the cancer b/c  chemo could terminate pregnancy. Now pretend this is your daughter and tell me honestly you wouldnt take a different position? Some people are just blind to the matters that go beyond their own experience. but just because a situation never crossed your mind (like having a pregnant teen in your household?) , it doesnt mean that it is not happening all over the world.  Please please, try to take your minds off of all preceived concepts and imagine, is it ok for let a cancer patient die because chemo cant be given if she is pregnant? because that's what an abortion ban is. NO ABORTION. WHATSOEVER. in under ANY circumstance. That's just nuts! I am pro choice but I'll side with pro lifers with exception any day before 100%pro lifers.

I remeber that girl , how sad. People should lat the very least learn from this horrific , senseless tragedy. Where was the concern for anyones life? 

LoriLou75
by Ruby Member on Oct. 14, 2012 at 1:38 PM
Do you have a link? I'm not even sure what it is about? Are you saying that when showed the us before an abortion 85% choose to not abort?

Quoting pittsburghnic:

Yes. This number comes from a pregnancy center in my city. These are real life stats, not just a study.




Quoting LoriLou75:

Could you clarify this? I don't really understand what you are saying? Did this number come fro a study?

Quoting pittsburghnic:

How can you say it's NOT A BABY? Think about that. At only 6 weeks (before most woman know they are pregnant) the child has a heartbeat. It can feel and move. Look into the timeline and details of a pregnancy. Before u state ur opinion, educate yourself thoroughly. Have you ever seen a sonogram early in pregnancy? This is when about 85% of woman turn away from their choice-- because they realize that they have a LIVING CHILD inside of them.








Quoting sunshinekid73:

Fetus =baby. Changing to a scientific term doesn't chance what it is or will be if given a chance.










Quoting Anonymous:

we aren't talking about a baby , it's a fetus no matter how much PL people try and change the facts.

and how many choices do you leave up to your babies? 

Quoting budgie1117:

I hate the term "pro-choice". The baby has NO choice at all, so their human right are violated. I think it would be clearer to say "pro-abortion".










Posted on CafeMom Mobile
wischeese1
by on Oct. 14, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Well I am both if the girl is being rape and get pregnant she should have the right if she want to get rid of the baby or not . Also if the health of the woman is endanger that another reason to abortion but i was in 2 high risk pregnancy and my baby were just fine. Back in the early 1990's i had a abortion just because we couldn't afford another child and that was in Phoenix AZ. It was hold to get over of but  we did get over it but now i think myself i think women have a choice but just remember there is great doctors out there and people would love to adopt or foster care this child. Think of that! The next time you go to a abortion clinic.

wischeese1
by on Oct. 14, 2012 at 2:21 PM

BUMP!

Gailll
by on Oct. 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM

So, according to some people "pro-lifers" would believe that there should be no option for abortion even if the mother's life is in danger. I developed a life threatening illness while pregnant and my husband deserted me and my two children. I decided to terminate the pregnancy if and when it became necessary. I was able to carry the pregnancy long enough that my baby survived. It is essential for there to be laws in place so that I didn't have to let myself and my baby die and leave my children wards of the state.

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