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Cant believe im doing this....

When I first joined cafemom I thought abortion was murder. But after seeing so many stories I've read I have come to see how ignorant that is. While I am now prochoice and I have a better more mature outlook on it, I am still saddened to of a case of abortion. I do not pass judgement, I wanna make that clear. I does still make me sad though.
That being said, I am seeing the trend in this topic today. I wanted to say something. Start a bit of a relaxed discussion (hopeful I know) and I feel like posting in the other posts my words are drowned out. So....
I wanna know when you think a fetus is a baby. I read an argument that had me thinking. Some women
believe it is a life at conception.
Some believe it is a life and a baby when it is viable to live outside the womb. Everyone has a difference of opinion and I respect each of your opinions on the matter. I am simply curious as to what you ladies believe and why you believe it.
the thought just hit me that maybe it's a life when there is a heartbeat. Maybe regardless If it can live on its own or not. It still has a heart right? Which gives life. And in persona already born, as long as there is a heartbeat there is life. I'm wondering about babies or fetuses if you prefer, that are birthed sleeping. Would you consider that a baby? If it has no heartbeat? What about people on life support? They are in need of support to continue their life, much like a fetus. I'm still pondering in it... what are your thoughts?
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
by on Jan. 28, 2013 at 4:13 PM
Replies (101-110):
BraydensMama163
by Ruby Member on Jan. 28, 2013 at 9:00 PM
1 mom liked this

Thank you, it's something I am still learning to deal with. I still can't bring myself to delete the weekly updates on my phone. Thats not healthy I know, but I like the pain I guess. Nice reminder Im still here and need to wake up. 

Quoting harehelper:

I'm so sorry for your loss.  :(

Quoting BraydensMama163:

I couldn't handle actually seeing my baby. They didn't let me keep an ultrasound picture, but they showed them to me, it was amazing how tiny the sac was. Some part of me is thankful there wasn't a baby yet and another part of me still wonders about it..but I often picture that sac in my head and it hurts to remember it. I still can't talk about it without crying and my husband doesnt want to hear about it. We had four days to be overjoyed because it was a total surprise. Almost  years since I had a baby. And I had myself convinced I had cancer or something because I didn't get my period and i took a test to prove to myself i wasn't pregnat and I was gonna call and see if I was dying or not lol. I cried for a while, happy tears, when I saw that set of pink lines. And I cried every day after the lines started fading. 

Quoting harehelper:

I am the opposite, I would have loved to have been able to see my baby. I think it would have given me more closure.

Quoting BraydensMama163:

I think about that a lot. Nothing can take away the pain. That's for sure. Some times I'm still in shock over it. Like that actually happened to me....

And sometimes I catch myself thinking just be glad there wasn't a baby for you to see. And I feel horrible for thinking that.


Quoting Anonymous:

I would not but that does and should not diminish your loss



Quoting BraydensMama163:

In the case of a miscarriage, early lets say 4-8 weeks, do you consider that a loss of a baby? I had a miscarriage at 4 weeks and they never saw anything inside the sac. I consider that a baby even though I never saw one.



Quoting Anonymous:

yes, that would be a baby to me.  even though they were still born.  I do not think abortion is murder and I am staunchly pro-choice - and for the slow ones, (not you OP but in general) pro-choice does not = pro abortion




Quoting BraydensMama163:

But what about if a fetus is born sleeping? It might be 34 weeks and not have survived the pregnancy. Is it a baby (in your opinion) if something went wrong and it wasn't alive even though it was 34 weeks or so?


That's what I'm questioning and trying to figure out.






Quoting Anonymous:

I believe a fetus is a baby when it can survive outside the womb (so 22-24 weeks or so)












Anonymous
by Anonymous on Jan. 28, 2013 at 9:01 PM


Ok, let's see if I can get you to understand.  


Did your 2 year old cousin have brain activity beyond the rudimentary?  According to your post she did.  She could hear.  She had at least 5% higher level brain activity (doctor's don't count the rudimentary in their percentages).  So yes, she had higher brain function.  

Also, you said she was placed into a coma on purpose to allow the swelling to go down.  If a patient requires a medically induced coma they are not brain dead and have higher function or a coma would not be necessary.  

So according to my post your cousin would be allowed to recuperate from her injury on life support while in the medically induced coma - a temporary state.  While she was in the coma tests would be periodically repeated.  If it was determined that her higher level brain function reached 0%, then yes, she would have been brain dead and a corpse on life support.  That did not happen though.


There is nothing vague there.  Do you understand now or do you need more clarification?

Quoting BraydensMama163:

Actually you are fairly vague and how is a patient allowed to die naturally? When their body doesn't allow them to breath for themselves anymore? That was the case with my two year old cousin. She lost all but 5 percent of her brain activity when her head was slammed into a brick wall, letting her stop breathing, is that allowing her to die naturally? Or was she already a corpse to you, because she wasn't to me and she wasn't to her father, or the dozens of other people who loved her. 

Quoting Anonymous:


Did you not read the whole response?  

I specifically said that one should be placed on life support until a determination of brain activity is made.  If there is only rudimentary brain function, then yes, it is storage of a corpse.  The person is no longer a sentient being.

Hearing indicates higher brain activity than the rudimentary I previously defined.  Why do you people not read the whole thing and just make up what you want to be indignant about?

Quoting BraydensMama163:

Do you really believe life support is storage of a corpse?

What about the people on lifesupport that can hear and show signs of responding but would die without their life support?

My 2 year old cousin was on life support after suffering child abuse, she was put in an induced coma to keep herself alive but limiting her activity because of the damage to her brain, but she would flex her finger or turn her head when her daddy talked to her. He did take her off life support, and had her organs donated, but We did not look at her as a corpse. She was a living breathing human, thanks to science. 

Quoting Anonymous:


I do not believe that long term storage of a corpse is good for the corpse or the family.  I still have nightmares that a Terri Schiavo situation would happen to me.   I have put in place preventative measures, such as a living will, but the way Congress played fast and loose with their role you can't depend on that working.  At least I don't live in Florida.  If I did, I would move.

Any life support should be a short term measure while brain activity is assessed.  If nothing but rudimentary  brain activity is found, the patient should be allowed to die naturally. 


Quoting harehelper:

What is your "policy" so to speak on people on life support?

Quoting Anonymous:

I believe life begins when a viable baby takes it's first breath.  Before it is viable it fits the strict scientific definition of a parasite.










Anonymous
by Anonymous on Jan. 28, 2013 at 9:03 PM


LMAO!   If I had a tumor I would donate it to a childless pro-life couple.

Quoting akrall83:

Depends, do they have option to put it up for adoption?

Quoting Anonymous:

I wonder if the pro-lifers would allow the tumor to be removed.  :/

Quoting akrall83:

In that it is made up of living cells, yes it is.


Quoting Anonymous:

By your definition a tumor is also a "life".

Quoting akrall83:

Scientifically speaking life occurs at conception at the cellular level. Egg and sperm meet and mitosis begins. Mitosis can only occur in living cells. For me personally if i was going to abort it would have to be before the heart starts beating. I really don't think i could do it at all, but absolutely not if there is a heartbeat.



BraydensMama163
by Ruby Member on Jan. 28, 2013 at 9:13 PM

Actually when my cousin went in, it was a simple Dr visit for a reoccuring bloody nose. Then the day she was rushed to the ER because she "passed out" it was determined she had brain damage and the nose bleeds were from loss of oxygen to the brain. She also had a broken collar bone. This was about 3 years ago, so I don't remember all the facts, but she was alive, stable thanks to the coma and at one point she was able to respond to her daddy. And while doing the stress test or whatever its called, she failed to breath on her own three times. At that point she was allowed to pass. She was not a corpse, she was a beautiful child, with a sassy attitude and she loved her daddy. She was alive and she was hurt, she was not a corpse. No matter what you believe is scientific, your wrong there. And I would urge you to be more respectful of others and monitor what you say a little better. There is such a thing as being a troll and then there is crossing a line when you talk about the loved ones people actually mourned over. 

I can understand being a bitch, I've been one, I can understand being snarky, but your first reply to this post was beyond that and the second and third and so on so forth have only been worse and more hurtful.. have some respect for the dead. Yes they are dead and yes some were brain dead, but refering to them as a corpse being stored on lifesupport is beyond rude and disrespectful and ignorant

And that is my point.

Quoting Anonymous:


Ok, let's see if I can get you to understand.  


Did your 2 year old cousin have brain activity beyond the rudimentary?  According to your post she did.  She could hear.  She had at least 5% higher level brain activity (doctor's don't count the rudimentary in their percentages).  So yes, she had higher brain function.  

Also, you said she was placed into a coma on purpose to allow the swelling to go down.  If a patient requires a medically induced coma they are not brain dead and have higher function or a coma would not be necessary.  

So according to my post your cousin would be allowed to recuperate from her injury on life support while in the medically induced coma - a temporary state.  While she was in the coma tests would be periodically repeated.  If it was determined that her higher level brain function reached 0%, then yes, she would have been brain dead and a corpse on life support.  That did not happen though.


There is nothing vague there.  Do you understand now or do you need more clarification?

Quoting BraydensMama163:

Actually you are fairly vague and how is a patient allowed to die naturally? When their body doesn't allow them to breath for themselves anymore? That was the case with my two year old cousin. She lost all but 5 percent of her brain activity when her head was slammed into a brick wall, letting her stop breathing, is that allowing her to die naturally? Or was she already a corpse to you, because she wasn't to me and she wasn't to her father, or the dozens of other people who loved her. 

Quoting Anonymous:


Did you not read the whole response?  

I specifically said that one should be placed on life support until a determination of brain activity is made.  If there is only rudimentary brain function, then yes, it is storage of a corpse.  The person is no longer a sentient being.

Hearing indicates higher brain activity than the rudimentary I previously defined.  Why do you people not read the whole thing and just make up what you want to be indignant about?

Quoting BraydensMama163:

Do you really believe life support is storage of a corpse?

What about the people on lifesupport that can hear and show signs of responding but would die without their life support?

My 2 year old cousin was on life support after suffering child abuse, she was put in an induced coma to keep herself alive but limiting her activity because of the damage to her brain, but she would flex her finger or turn her head when her daddy talked to her. He did take her off life support, and had her organs donated, but We did not look at her as a corpse. She was a living breathing human, thanks to science. 

Quoting Anonymous:


I do not believe that long term storage of a corpse is good for the corpse or the family.  I still have nightmares that a Terri Schiavo situation would happen to me.   I have put in place preventative measures, such as a living will, but the way Congress played fast and loose with their role you can't depend on that working.  At least I don't live in Florida.  If I did, I would move.

Any life support should be a short term measure while brain activity is assessed.  If nothing but rudimentary  brain activity is found, the patient should be allowed to die naturally. 


Quoting harehelper:

What is your "policy" so to speak on people on life support?

Quoting Anonymous:

I believe life begins when a viable baby takes it's first breath.  Before it is viable it fits the strict scientific definition of a parasite.











BraydensMama163
by Ruby Member on Jan. 28, 2013 at 9:15 PM

Let's try and keep it respectful please. This is suppose to be an educated discussion, not a bully post. 

Quoting Anonymous: 


LMAO!   If I had a tumor I would donate it to a childless pro-life couple.

Quoting akrall83:

Depends, do they have option to put it up for adoption?

Quoting Anonymous:

I wonder if the pro-lifers would allow the tumor to be removed.  :/

Quoting akrall83:

In that it is made up of living cells, yes it is.


Quoting Anonymous:

By your definition a tumor is also a "life".

Quoting akrall83:

Scientifically speaking life occurs at conception at the cellular level. Egg and sperm meet and mitosis begins. Mitosis can only occur in living cells. For me personally if i was going to abort it would have to be before the heart starts beating. I really don't think i could do it at all, but absolutely not if there is a heartbeat.




mama.farmer
by on Jan. 28, 2013 at 11:17 PM
1 mom liked this

IMHO, if life stops when the heart stops, then it starts when the heart starts, and that's at 21 days. 

Sassy762
by CAFE SASSY HBIC on Jan. 28, 2013 at 11:21 PM
1 mom liked this

I personally think that abortion is murder BUT that is my opinion. I am Pro-Life for myself and anyone that shares my DNA and Pro-Choice for everyone else in the universe

Anonymous
by Anonymous on Jan. 29, 2013 at 12:11 AM
New Age Pagan.

Quoting BraydensMama163:

That's interesting. What's your faith if you don't mind my asking?



Quoting Anonymous:

My faith says a soul starts merging at conception but not complete until 6 years old.
Anonymous
by Anonymous on Jan. 29, 2013 at 12:16 AM

I believe that life is at conception. I believe in choice but their choice ends when they become pregnant. Their choice is having sex, whether protected or not. They understand the risks of having sex. The only time I believe that someone should be given then choice when they are pregnant is if their lives depend on it. Besides that, you had sex. You need to learn to deal with the consequences of your actions. (You being general you)

Anonymous
by Anonymous on Jan. 29, 2013 at 12:20 AM

I personally feel that it is a life and a baby at conception and I would never get an abortion unless it was medically nessicary.  However I am not going to sit here and judge a woman for a choice that she is making with her own body because that is not my place.

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