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Question for Christians - no hate here. *ETA in red*

Posted by Anonymous   + Show Post

I am an atheist, and I am curious since I'm seeing so many "godliness = goodness" posts today.

First let me start by saying; if you have faith in a god or gods, no matter your religion, and you are good person, great! I LOVE good people, no matter their beliefs.

However, I wonder, do you believe that if you didn't have faith in your god or gods that you wouldn't be able to be a good person?

I ask this because, as an atheist who is a good person... that scares the shit out of me, seriously. I mean, if you think that without god and the promise of heaven or fear of hell that you would just be out killing people and stealing from them, that's fucking scary! I am good without god, and I'd like to believe that religious people would also be good without god... say you never heard of god, wouldn't you still be a good person?


I want to thank you ladies for this discussion. I am enjoying the different interpretations of your faith and learning how and what you believe, and I appreciate the civility and thoughtfulness of your responses. I was a little scared this would turn into a screaming match between believers and nons, and am impressed by your class and respect. Thank you all!

Posted by Anonymous on Feb. 6, 2013 at 12:21 PM
Replies (121-130):
winkyloafer
by on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:00 PM
Religious faith doesn't determine if someone is good or not. I know plenty of people from different religious backgrounds and there are good people and bad people.
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Anonymous
by Anonymous - Original Poster on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:02 PM


I think I need to read it again lol. Its been a while since I did... I just almost fall asleep reading about who begat whom for an hour at a time haha. 

I think its important in the western world to understand Christianity even if you don't believe because its so prevalent in our society, so I just want to say thank you for trying to help me to understand... I think I get it, but I need to read it again to be sure lol.

Quoting unsuspected:

:oD  

Going back to the stove example.  Whether or not the child knows what "hot" is, there will be consequnces if he touches a hot stove.  (I'm talking fire blazing, pot of boiling water, third degree burns here).  The consequences will be the same whether or not the child understood why he was told not to touch to stove.  So it doesn't matter if they understood or not, they knew that God had told them not to and they decided to disobey.  

I think I can see your point, but to me it makes sense either they acknowledge who God was, as the authority in their lives and choices or they didn't.  He could have told them anything to do or not do, the fact that it was the Tree of The Kinowledge of Good and evil really doesn't change that they decided their way was going to be better than God's way.  

I don't think God was setting them up at all.  Anymore so than when I tell my child "Don't hit your sister" yet he decides to do it anyway.  

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  









unsuspected
by Gold Member on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Thank you for being open to not just rip it apart because you didn't undersand it.  I'm sorry if I just served to confuse you more!  I guess I've never tried to analyze that part before.  :oD  Have a great day.  

Quoting Anonymous:


I think I need to read it again lol. Its been a while since I did... I just almost fall asleep reading about who begat whom for an hour at a time haha. 

I think its important in the western world to understand Christianity even if you don't believe because its so prevalent in our society, so I just want to say thank you for trying to help me to understand... I think I get it, but I need to read it again to be sure lol.

Quoting unsuspected:

:oD  

Going back to the stove example.  Whether or not the child knows what "hot" is, there will be consequnces if he touches a hot stove.  (I'm talking fire blazing, pot of boiling water, third degree burns here).  The consequences will be the same whether or not the child understood why he was told not to touch to stove.  So it doesn't matter if they understood or not, they knew that God had told them not to and they decided to disobey.  

I think I can see your point, but to me it makes sense either they acknowledge who God was, as the authority in their lives and choices or they didn't.  He could have told them anything to do or not do, the fact that it was the Tree of The Kinowledge of Good and evil really doesn't change that they decided their way was going to be better than God's way.  

I don't think God was setting them up at all.  Anymore so than when I tell my child "Don't hit your sister" yet he decides to do it anyway.  

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  










“He’s not perfect. You aren’t either, and the two of you will never be perfect. But if he can make you laugh at least once, causes you to think twice, and if he admits to being human and making mistakes, hold onto him and give him the most you can. He isn’t going to quote poetry, he’s not thinking about you every moment, but he will give you a part of him that he knows you could break. Don’t hurt him, don’t change him, and don’t expect for more than he can give. Don’t analyze. Smile when he makes you happy, yell when he makes you mad, and miss him when he’s not there. Love hard when there is love to be had. Because perfect guys don’t exist, but there’s always one guy that is perfect for you.” ~Bob Marley
MomofHDFandNWF
by on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:20 PM
1 mom liked this

Gonna jump in here...hope you two don't mind... Another way to think about this.  Have you ever been swayed by a high pressure sales pitch?  Satan was incredibly crafty and subtle.  He knew exactly what to say to push Eve's thoughts in the direction he wanted them to go.  He craftily introduced subtle lies and distortions to her.... He twisted the truth just slightly.  Once Eve listened to and began to dwell on his false ideaas, they then contaminated her way of thinking and she "bought into" what he was "selling" her. 

Over and over, we are taught through Scripture that God's laws are for our good and our protection and that obedience brings blessings.  But, Sata places in our minds the idea that God's laws are burdensome, unreasonable, and unfair; and that if we obey Him, we will be miserable.

In the entire Garden of Eden there was only one "Keep Off" sign, and Satan caused Eve to focus on the one limitation instead of focusing on everything God had given her.  According to Genesis 3:6 there were three things about that forbidden tree that made it alluring for her

1) It was good for food

2) It was a delight to the eyes

3) It was desired to make Eve wise once she ate of the fruit.

If the fruit on that tree had been rotten or crawling with worms do you think Eve would have been enticed to eat of it?  Certainly not... what makes Satan's ofers so alluring and so deceptive is that often they look right.  He is in the business of making sin look harmelss, attractive and even sometimes promising.

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  







CafeMom Tickers
Anonymous
by Anonymous - Original Poster on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:27 PM

I actually can't help but look at it as a favor that Satan did for them lol. He gave them the knowledge of good and evil, and its good to know right from wrong. According to Christianity, without Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, we would have no knowledge of good and evil, and I feel that this knowledge is where we get our ability to empathise... if I didn't know that someone was doing something bad to someone else, I would not be driven to help them, KWIM? 

I don't believe in any of this, but it makes sense that it would play out the way it did - for the sake of empathy and free will. And the bible depicts god as all knowing, so he had to know what was going to happen and it was part of his plan... I think. I could be wrong, but that's how my mind interprets it.

Kinda like, god used the devil to reach his goal of enlightenment for Adam and Eve. You don't learn from being told, you learn from screwing up lol


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

Gonna jump in here...hope you two don't mind... Another way to think about this.  Have you ever been swayed by a high pressure sales pitch?  Satan was incredibly crafty and subtle.  He knew exactly what to say to push Eve's thoughts in the direction he wanted them to go.  He craftily introduced subtle lies and distortions to her.... He twisted the truth just slightly.  Once Eve listened to and began to dwell on his false ideaas, they then contaminated her way of thinking and she "bought into" what he was "selling" her. 

Over and over, we are taught through Scripture that God's laws are for our good and our protection and that obedience brings blessings.  But, Sata places in our minds the idea that God's laws are burdensome, unreasonable, and unfair; and that if we obey Him, we will be miserable.

In the entire Garden of Eden there was only one "Keep Off" sign, and Satan caused Eve to focus on the one limitation instead of focusing on everything God had given her.  According to Genesis 3:6 there were three things about that forbidden tree that made it alluring for her

1) It was good for food

2) It was a delight to the eyes

3) It was desired to make Eve wise once she ate of the fruit.

If the fruit on that tree had been rotten or crawling with worms do you think Eve would have been enticed to eat of it?  Certainly not... what makes Satan's ofers so alluring and so deceptive is that often they look right.  He is in the business of making sin look harmelss, attractive and even sometimes promising.

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  









cwaymama87
by on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Personally I'm a born again Christian.  My husband and I are Southern Baptist and are active in church.  We are what they call "baby Christians" because we were just saved July of last year.  I'm 26 and my husband is 28.  I have always been a good person, with the lapse in judgement my fair share of times.  I've always been the one to pull over and help people whose tire went flat or go to the rescue of friends.  Just because you're not religious doesn't mean you're a bad person. 

MomofHDFandNWF
by on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Also, of course, we are basing the idea of no one knowing good from evil only if no one else through history had given in and eaten from the fruit.... I also think that when they are confronted by God they are not truly sorry for what they did (i.e. eat of the fruit), now they were sorry for the consequences.  They also start in with the blame game... Adam: "It's your fault God - you are the one that made her..."   as well as trying to "fix" their mistake by covering themselves with fig leaves after all.  As if fig leaves would really fix it!

Though something I have always found interesting... why did Satan approach Eve and not Adam?  And why did Eve not defer to Adam and say "Hey, honey - this snake is saying I should have a piece of fruit.  What do you think?"  She ate of it willingly, and then when she realized what she did - she then turns to Adam and says "Hey, honey - try this it is really good!"


Quoting Anonymous:

I actually can't help but look at it as a favor that Satan did for them lol. He gave them the knowledge of good and evil, and its good to know right from wrong. According to Christianity, without Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, we would have no knowledge of good and evil, and I feel that this knowledge is where we get our ability to empathise... if I didn't know that someone was doing something bad to someone else, I would not be driven to help them, KWIM? 

I don't believe in any of this, but it makes sense that it would play out the way it did - for the sake of empathy and free will. And the bible depicts god as all knowing, so he had to know what was going to happen and it was part of his plan... I think. I could be wrong, but that's how my mind interprets it.

Kinda like, god used the devil to reach his goal of enlightenment for Adam and Eve. You don't learn from being told, you learn from screwing up lol


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

Gonna jump in here...hope you two don't mind... Another way to think about this.  Have you ever been swayed by a high pressure sales pitch?  Satan was incredibly crafty and subtle.  He knew exactly what to say to push Eve's thoughts in the direction he wanted them to go.  He craftily introduced subtle lies and distortions to her.... He twisted the truth just slightly.  Once Eve listened to and began to dwell on his false ideaas, they then contaminated her way of thinking and she "bought into" what he was "selling" her. 

Over and over, we are taught through Scripture that God's laws are for our good and our protection and that obedience brings blessings.  But, Sata places in our minds the idea that God's laws are burdensome, unreasonable, and unfair; and that if we obey Him, we will be miserable.

In the entire Garden of Eden there was only one "Keep Off" sign, and Satan caused Eve to focus on the one limitation instead of focusing on everything God had given her.  According to Genesis 3:6 there were three things about that forbidden tree that made it alluring for her

1) It was good for food

2) It was a delight to the eyes

3) It was desired to make Eve wise once she ate of the fruit.

If the fruit on that tree had been rotten or crawling with worms do you think Eve would have been enticed to eat of it?  Certainly not... what makes Satan's ofers so alluring and so deceptive is that often they look right.  He is in the business of making sin look harmelss, attractive and even sometimes promising.

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  










CafeMom Tickers
Anonymous
by Anonymous - Original Poster on Feb. 7, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Maybe women just have a stronger appreciation for food? lol

Idk, maybe it has to do with the punishment that was given, painful childbirth. I've heard that many religious women say they feel closer to god when going through childbirth, that the pain brings them to him. I also have a friend who was atheist, but when she was having her baby was the first time she prayed and she's now taking RCIA to convert to Catholicism.

From an historical standpoint, this could explain why, before modern medicine, women with children were stronger in their religious faith than women who had no children (other than the shame of being unwed or infertile) and from a religious standpoint, if was women who were created of men, making them more prone to flaws... like a copy of a copy, if you will. This intense pain "perfects" the religious woman. She had to be weak to become strong.


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

Also, of course, we are basing the idea of no one knowing good from evil only if no one else through history had given in and eaten from the fruit.... I also think that when they are confronted by God they are not truly sorry for what they did (i.e. eat of the fruit), now they were sorry for the consequences.  They also start in with the blame game... Adam: "It's your fault God - you are the one that made her..."   as well as trying to "fix" their mistake by covering themselves with fig leaves after all.  As if fig leaves would really fix it!

Though something I have always found interesting... why did Satan approach Eve and not Adam?  And why did Eve not defer to Adam and say "Hey, honey - this snake is saying I should have a piece of fruit.  What do you think?"  She ate of it willingly, and then when she realized what she did - she then turns to Adam and says "Hey, honey - try this it is really good!"


Quoting Anonymous:

I actually can't help but look at it as a favor that Satan did for them lol. He gave them the knowledge of good and evil, and its good to know right from wrong. According to Christianity, without Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, we would have no knowledge of good and evil, and I feel that this knowledge is where we get our ability to empathise... if I didn't know that someone was doing something bad to someone else, I would not be driven to help them, KWIM? 

I don't believe in any of this, but it makes sense that it would play out the way it did - for the sake of empathy and free will. And the bible depicts god as all knowing, so he had to know what was going to happen and it was part of his plan... I think. I could be wrong, but that's how my mind interprets it.

Kinda like, god used the devil to reach his goal of enlightenment for Adam and Eve. You don't learn from being told, you learn from screwing up lol


Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

Gonna jump in here...hope you two don't mind... Another way to think about this.  Have you ever been swayed by a high pressure sales pitch?  Satan was incredibly crafty and subtle.  He knew exactly what to say to push Eve's thoughts in the direction he wanted them to go.  He craftily introduced subtle lies and distortions to her.... He twisted the truth just slightly.  Once Eve listened to and began to dwell on his false ideaas, they then contaminated her way of thinking and she "bought into" what he was "selling" her. 

Over and over, we are taught through Scripture that God's laws are for our good and our protection and that obedience brings blessings.  But, Sata places in our minds the idea that God's laws are burdensome, unreasonable, and unfair; and that if we obey Him, we will be miserable.

In the entire Garden of Eden there was only one "Keep Off" sign, and Satan caused Eve to focus on the one limitation instead of focusing on everything God had given her.  According to Genesis 3:6 there were three things about that forbidden tree that made it alluring for her

1) It was good for food

2) It was a delight to the eyes

3) It was desired to make Eve wise once she ate of the fruit.

If the fruit on that tree had been rotten or crawling with worms do you think Eve would have been enticed to eat of it?  Certainly not... what makes Satan's ofers so alluring and so deceptive is that often they look right.  He is in the business of making sin look harmelss, attractive and even sometimes promising.

Quoting Anonymous:

So basically, he had to set them up to disobey him so he could teach them that disobeying him is wrong? Because before they ate of the tree, they had no way of knowing that disobeying him was wrong. Maybe I'm not understanding lol. I'm trying to though.

My children only know to listen to me because I've taught them to listen to me; they were not born knowing right from wrong so I taught them... and the tree of knowldege was god's way of teaching the same?


Quoting unsuspected:

When you tell your child not to touch the stove because it is "hot" ... does it matter if your child does not understand the concept of "hot"?  He/she needs to obey simply because you, as the mother and authority figure who does know and understand the danger has told them not to.  

It was the first step to show trust in who God is, to accept His words and commandments on faith.  

Quoting Anonymous:

Not long winded, very thought provoking.

I'm going to go off topic for a moment though because your response poses a question in my mind...

If the tree of knowledge was forbidden, meaning it was wrong to eat from it... but without eating from it Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong, then how could they have been expected to understand that eating of the tree was sinful? 

Idk if that made sense, so I'll try to better word it...

If god said "you can't eat of this tree, to do so is wrong", but the fruit of the tree is what gives the knowledge of right and wrong, then they couldn't possibly have understood what it meant when god said it was wrong to eat of that tree... am I coming through? 

It would seem that god set them up to fail because he didn't teach them right from wrong, then when they did wrong he punished them.

I've always felt that way about Genesis, and if I am interpreting it wrong I would appreciate a correction.


Quoting unsuspected:

I am a Christian.  So here is run down of what that title means:  I believe that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.   The cost of sin is death.  I believe that God, our Father and creator, sent His son to die to pay for our sins.  All our sins, as a human race, not just "good people" who didn't need it, or "bad people" who aren't worth saving.  ALL people have sinned.  ALL people have had their debt paid.  

The idea of being a "good person" is arbitrary and very vague.  What do you mean by "good person"?  "Good" and "bad" refer to SOME  sort of judgement, who is the Judge?  

My answer is going to get VERY long winded here!  :oD  

If you mean "goood person" as in living a life that doesn't harm those around you, that can even have shining moments of thoughtful selflessness and concern for your neighbor, your children, the world around you.  Yes, I believe we are all capable of that.  I believe it is ingrained in who we are as God's creations to have a heart that aches to 'be good' 'do good' etc.  I do think that people are more good than bad.

YET, getting back to the heart of it ... back to the bible ... Remember Adam and Eve?  And I promise I'm not being snarky, there just really is a lot to cover here.  :oD  That choice to eat from the tree is called The Fall of Man for many reasons.  That original sin cast a shadow over ALL ("all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God")  proceeding generations.  Because we are human, we are sinners.  Sin is as MUCH a part of all of us as any good is.  

Do I think that Christians are perfect and don't sin or have never sinned?  NO.  Being a Christian is not about being perfect in any way.  We are not better human being, we are all the same human beings, in this battle of good and evil every day.  The difference for someone who has faith and trust in who Jesus is and what His death has meant for this WORLD, is that we know that the battle has already been won!  

Does going to church make you a 'better' person than your neighbor?  No.   Does being a Christian give you the title of 'good person'?  No.   Being a Christian means that you are a follower of Christ, you want to live your life as He lived His and you know that His death was in your place.  I am a sinner, I make mistakes, I am not perfect,  the cost of my sin has so deeply separated me from my God so as to prevent me form spending an eternity with Him after this world.  But Jesus died to secure my place.  

If this is a debate about who is getting onto heaven or not ... that is a harder one to have.  Because I don't understand how someone who doesn't believe in God would believe that there is a Heaven.  (Not you personally, just in general)  












beyondbelief900
by on Feb. 8, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Thank you, just always keep an open mind no matter which way you choose, we never know what is waiting around the cornor for us.  Have a wonderful day! <3


brandydesiree
by Platinum Member on Feb. 8, 2013 at 2:51 PM
Honestly, no I don't think most people would be good without the premise of God.

We are predators, who have a natural instinct to be protective and selfish.

Without God, or the idea of him, I think we would be much less civilized.

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