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Anyone Heard Of The Mountain Meadows Massacre?

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This is an evil monstrosity that the LDS 'Church' did back in the mid-1800s.
I grew up LDS and never knew anything about this.
The Baker-Fancher immigrant train came to the Salt Lake Valley, planning to head west to California. The Mormons would not trade or do any business with the wagon train.
The Mormons told them that the northern passage was riddled with Natives who were angry at the white man and that the southern passage was safer and easier to travel.
This was a lie.
Also, word had been sent to the southern Mormons not to do business with the train, as well.
The morning of Monday September 7, 1857 was bright, warm.
A little boy had just sat down to eat his breakfast when he was shot and killed- the first victim.
Then followed the shooting of 10-15 more immigrants- 7 of whom died then, three of which died days later.
The train members made a circle of the wagons and dug a trench to protect themselves.
For days, there were shots fired.
Friday, Sept. 11, under the guise of surrender, a Mormon man walked into the immigrant encampment to convince the members that they should leave the area. He promised them their lives if they walked away from their weapons and belongings.
Women and men walked single file. Children and those men too injured, were pulled in a wagon- all led by Mormons.
After walking about a mile, the procession was halted.
A Mormon yelled t o his brethren "Do your duty!" and shots rang out.
Within a matter of minutes, 120+ men, women and CHILDREN were killed.
17 orphans were taken to a ranch a few miles away, to be adopted by Mormon families.

There was no reason for this massacre, other than blind devotion to a man who says he is of God.
How can this 'church' be good, when they have this history on their heads?

by on Feb. 19, 2013 at 1:11 AM
Replies (121-130):
Anonymous
by Anonymous on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:12 AM

 Darn, and here I thought you were a realist. I had hoped for an interesting discussion. Now make sure you lock your doors before bedtime and don't let the bedbugs bite. Nighty, Night.

Quoting Anonymous:

I dont believe the majoraty of people are naturally bad.  And I have a little more faith in human kid than you do.  

I think as rational adults we don't need stories and fairy tales to force us to behave.

what a silly argument you make.  I can't even be bothered to properly rebut it.

 

Quoting Anonymous:

 Or kill each other off, because the naturally bad believe they can kill and harm others and have no sense of human responsibility. It may be surprising to know that the kind of people who are sold on their religion often have only their religion's teachings as a reason for not doing bad things. And, seriously, are some of these people truly capable of thinking for themselves? I'm perfectly happy to have the intellectually challenged corralled by a peaceful religion.

 

Quoting Anonymous:

 

Or without religion holding mankind back and mankind will be forced to think on it's own and flourish.

Quoting Anonymous:

 True, but could you imagine a world were people, who essentially can't think for themselves, believed in and did any horrible thing they wanted? Most religions, at least, preach peace, love, and try to make people behave. If people can't think, someone will always think for them.

Quoting Anonymous:

It's not a religion as much as a cult.  Like scientology. imo.

Most religions are an organized way of controlling a group of people.

 

Quoting Sandiekd21:

Yes, but the orders for the extermination came from the LEADERS OF THE CHURCH! You know, the infallible President of the Mormon church?

Quoting bcoll:

 I've always known about this, but I love history, especially this time period.

All I can say here is that lots of terrible things have been done in the name of God and under cover of religion. That still doesn't make the religion bad. It makes those PEOPLE bad.


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

pampire
by on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:16 AM
1 mom liked this

All churches/faiths have blood on their hands somewhere in the past.  It isn't the religion that is to blame but the people practicing it.

neyney_nancy
by on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:28 AM

Thank you for the history. I found it quite informative and interesting. Reminded me the history I learned in high school. It has very much of the same concept but was claimed to be different in each culture or religion. 

Bonita131
by Platinum Member on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:30 AM

 


Quoting Momniscient:


Quoting Bonita131:

 

 

Quoting Momniscient:


Quoting Bonita131:

 

 

Quoting Momniscient:

This is just silly.

Quoting Bonita131:

How can this 'church' be good, when they have this history on their heads?

There never was a "church," Mormonism is a cult.  The word "church" is only there and used, so the Mormons can rip off the government and taxpayers by not having to pay any taxes on their land and investments.  Do some research, (the ex mormon website) they own shopping centers, resorts, you name it, with all of it tax free as they claim it is part of the "church".  They suck gullible members dry with tithes, making some of  them choose between eating or face the wrath of the "church" for not paying their "share". It wasn't that long ago black people were considered evil by mormons, they would never let a black person join the "church." The only reason that rule changed is because of public pressure. Its really quite disgusting.


Not according to ex mormons that were smart enough to realize they'd joined a cult and got out.   

 

Even more silliness.

You should just quit.

You might want to take your own advice.  

 

I'm not the one spouting nonsense about something you seem to know nothing about. Don't likethe LDS religion? Don't be LDS but knock it off with the propaganda and stupid shit.


 The "propaganda" you talk of comes from ex mormons. How kind of you to refer to what they say as spouting nonsense and stupid shit. I'm guessing you're a practicing mormon for their "propaganda" to upset you so much.

night.magic
by Silver Member on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:31 AM
1 mom liked this

 Never heard of it before, but damn that is horrible.

Anonymous
by Anonymous on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:50 AM
1 mom liked this
Again we are talking about founders not members. So unless you are saying that Jesus, Buddha and others also have blood on their hands the your comparison makes no sense.


Quoting pampire:

All churches/faiths have blood on their hands somewhere in the past.  It isn't the religion that is to blame but the people practicing it.


Anonymous
by Anonymous on Feb. 20, 2013 at 1:50 AM

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/the-mountain-meadows-massacre


the lds church does not say it didn't happen, I was taught about it in church and most members I know know about it.  I guess the detail you are disputing Is that you say it was ordered by the prophet and they don't? 

TurboMom81
by on Feb. 20, 2013 at 5:29 AM
Most likely. I kind of wonder where the story came from if everyone was killed.

Quoting Sandiekd21:

There was.
It's called September Dawn.
Good, movie, though I think there are a lot of fictions in it.

Quoting TurboMom81:

I think there wAs a movie made about this.


Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
miss_lisa
by on Feb. 20, 2013 at 8:04 AM


Quoting Bonita131:



Quoting miss_lisa:

The ex Mormon website is one of the most hateful and vile sites I've ever visited and I'm ex-Mormon. They're so hateful and spiteful it's embarrassing. They are NOT a good source for information.



I left the LDS religion with zero issues. They've never harassed me. For a cult they do a real shitty job on making sure I don't expose them. Maybe there's a Mormon ninja outside my window waiting to strike after I post this.

Oh an they are extremely charitable with members and non-members alike. They ask that you tithe 10% of your income but if you are in dire need of help they understand. I have family members who had their bills paid, medications paid, and received free food from the LDS church. Google bishops storehouse. They'd never allow anyone to starve if they can help. That's just bullshit.



Quoting Bonita131:

How can this 'church' be good, when they have this history on their heads?



There never was a "church," Mormonism is a cult.  The word "church" is only there and used, so the Mormons can rip off the government and taxpayers by not having to pay any taxes on their land and investments.  Do some research, (the ex mormon website) they own shopping centers, resorts, you name it, with all of it tax free as they claim it is part of the "church".  They suck gullible members dry with tithes, making some of  them choose between eating or face the wrath of the "church" for not paying their "share". It wasn't that long ago black people were considered evil by mormons, they would never let a black person join the "church." The only reason that rule changed is because of public pressure. Its really quite disgusting.

Oh please, if you really think I'd take what you say as the truth over thousands of ex mormons, you're living in a dream world. The ex mormon website is great source of information, they tell it as it really is, they do not make excuses for what is nothing more than a cult, like you are doing.

Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates

SAN FRANCISCO -- If the Mormon church were a business, wealthy adherents like Mitt Romney would count as its dominant revenue stream.

Its investment strategy would be viewed as risk-averse.

It would also likely attract corporate gadflies protesting a lack of transparency. They would call for less spending on real estate and more on charitable causes to improve membership growth -- the Mormons' return on investment.

Those are a few of the conclusions that can be drawn from an analysis of the church's finances by Reuters and University of Tampa sociologist Ryan Cragun.


Relying heavily on church records in countries that require far more disclosure than the United States, Cragun and Reuters estimate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations.

It owns about $35 billion worth of temples and meeting houses around the world, and controls farms, ranches, shopping malls and other commercial ventures worth many billions more.

The church claims 14 million members around the world, more than half outside the United States. All are supposed to tithe, or give 10 percent, of their income, which Mormons frequently interpret as pre-tax earnings. But only about 40 percent of Mormons counted by the church actually attend weekly services in the United States and Canada, and in many countries, including Mexico and Brazil, only a quarter of nominal members are active, according to Cumorah, an independent research group headed by a devoted, active Mormon.

These active members are most likely to tithe, and the result is that from a financial standpoint at least, the church remains largely a venture of active American members, said Cragun, who adds that U.S. Mormon men tend to be wealthier than the average U.S. male.

"Most of the revenue of the religion is from the U.S., and a large percentage comes from an elite cadre of wealthy donors, like Mitt Romney," said Cragun. "(It) is a religion that appeals to economically successful men by rewarding their financial acuity with respect and positions of prestige within the religion."

The church is full of successful businessmen, including chemical billionaire Jon Huntsman Sr., the father of the former presidential candidate, J.W. "Bill" Marriott Jr. and his hotel-owning family, and even entertainer Donny Osmond.

Romney, the Republican presidential candidate, gave $4.1 million to the church over the past two years (amounting to 9.7 percent of his gross adjusted income, according to the two years' worth of tax returns he has released). He would tithe on his IRA, valued at as much as $102 million, only when he withdraws from it and pays taxes.

Crunching the numbers
Several countries around the world require religious groups and charities to file financial reports, including Canada. The country has only 185,000 Mormon members but a wealth of statistics on them. Taking total reported Canadian donations and dividing by the estimated number of active Mormons and family financial data from the World Bank indicates that active Canadian Mormons give slightly less than 8 percent of their income to the church.

Assuming that active U.S. Mormons give at a similar rate and adjusting for higher U.S. income, total U.S. tithing would amount to more than $6 billion, or about $6.5 billion annually between the United States and Canada.

Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, which also require financial disclosures, all have sharply lower donation rates than Canada. Based on data from those countries, tithing outside the United States and Canada totals several hundred million dollars, taking global total donations to about $7 billion.

Canada also requires the church to disclose the value of its assets and spending. Using those figures as a basis suggests the total value of church buildings, including temples and meeting houses, would be about $35 billion globally.

Church spokesman Michael Purdy declined to comment specifically on the estimates but said that the church was different from a corporation.

"Other projections are speculative and do not reflect an understanding of how the church uses its income to bless the lives of people," he added, saying the church was financed primarily from member tithing and offerings.

Focus on business and buildings
Concerned or disgruntled current and former Mormons complain that the church spends too much on real estate and for-profit ventures, neglecting charity work.

The Mormon church has no hospitals and only a handful of primary schools. Its university system is limited to widely respected Brigham Young, which has campuses in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii, and LDS Business College. Seminaries and institutes for high school students and single adults offer religious studies for hundreds of thousands.

It counts more than 55,000 in its missionary forces, primarily youths focused on converting new members but also seniors who volunteer for its nonprofits, such as the Polynesian Cultural Center, which bills itself as Hawaii's No. 1 tourist attraction, and for-profit businesses owned by the church.

The church has plowed resources into a multi-billion-dollar global network of for-profit enterprises: it is the largest rancher in the United States, a church official told Nebraska's Lincoln Journal Star in 2004, with other ranches and farms in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Australia and Great Britain, according to financial documents reviewed by Reuters.

Ranching and farm industry sources say they are well-run operations.

It also has a small media empire, an investment fund, and is developing a mall across from its Salt Lake City headquarters, which it calls an attempt to help revitalize the city rather than to make money. These enterprises are also part of a vast nest egg for tough times. The church expects wars and natural disasters before Christ returns to Earth in the Second Coming, and members are encouraged to prepare by laying in stores of food. Farms and ranches are part of the church's own preparation.

"The church teaches its members to live within their means and put a little money aside for life's unexpected events. As a church, we live by the same principle," Purdy said. The rainy-day fund and operating budget rarely mix, officials say.

Cost-cutting is a top priority, church documents show. It has even laid off janitors and called on members to clean temples and meeting houses, but the buildout of temples continues, including one under construction in Rome.

Those temples take a lot of money to operate, Purdy points out, and many of the grand church buildings are short on congregants, says David Stewart, a physician who leads the research group Cumorah.

"I have been to beautiful church buildings in Hungary and Ukraine, and Latvia and other places, and there are these huge buildings and 35 people there, and you say, how can this work financially? The math - it just doesn't work."

In contrast, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which had about 17 million members a year ago, appears to be getting a better return on investment: It builds smaller meeting houses and lots of schools and hospitals, and its numbers are swelling faster than the Mormons', said Stewart. The Adventists claim a million new members join annually, compared with every three years or so for the Mormons.

"The Seventh-day Adventists clearly have a much more expansive humanitarian project in terms of building hospitals and medical schools and schools and universities and long-term developmental infrastructure around the world," said Stewart. "It's paid off for them."

The Mormon church, meanwhile, appears to be decreasing transparency and member control of donations. New tithing slips give fewer donation options and come with an expanded disclaimer saying the church has sole discretion over spending, even though it will make "reasonable efforts" to follow donors' wishes.

"Hey, where's the slot of 'shopping malls'?" a poster said of the new slips on exmormonforums.com, one of several dissident sites.

 



So it appears you don't understand bias. The ex-Mormon site is full of people who are extremely spiteful over their experiences therefore their opinions and views will be biased. Hence, it's not a reliable source of information. The fact that you think it is means that you don't understand the concept of bias.

I never said they weren't wealthy, as a religion they are incredibly wealthy. I disagreed with your statements that it's a cult. Per your article, that's correct. With only a 40% active rate this means that the majority of members are NOT active. If they were a cult like you claim they are they would certainly have a much higher active rate than 40%.

I did state that the LDS church does a LOT of charitable work. Your article even addresses the idea of food storage which is a huge part of the LDS religion. They encourage their members to be prepared. They give out a lot of food, have helped with numerous major world disasters, give people money to help them out (even non-members), and more. Charity and service work are a HUGE part of the LDS culture. 

I'm not sure why you posted that article. It didn't even refute anything I posted and actually supported a couple of my points. So thanks I guess.

Anonymous
by Anonymous on Feb. 20, 2013 at 8:10 AM

You're talking about leaders, not the founder. The founder was dead when this happened. So the comparison does make sense. Not only that, but the Mormons believe in Jesus and quite honestly there was a lot of blood shed over Jesus as well.

Quoting Anonymous:

Again we are talking about founders not members. So unless you are saying that Jesus, Buddha and others also have blood on their hands the your comparison makes no sense.


Quoting pampire:

All churches/faiths have blood on their hands somewhere in the past.  It isn't the religion that is to blame but the people practicing it.



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