The
folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying
for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the free stuff
can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own stuff.
The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop,
and the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff
on top of the free stuff they are already getting!
Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff
have told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff, that the people
who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being greedy, mean, prejudiced,
and racist.
So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they
need to hate the people who are paying for the free stuff by the people
who are forcing some people to pay for their free stuff, and giving
them the free stuff in the first place.
We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now
more people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.
Now understand this. All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The reason? The
voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury
by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in
exchange for electing them. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The
democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
The United States officially became a Republic in 1776, 235 years ago. The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff.
Quoting Carpy:Me too. He did not want to end slave trade with African Countries because he feared making slaves a highly valuable commodity. People do not realize it but the way the Constitution was written, it was set up to bring the end to slavery.
Quoting imamomzilla:Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Funny you quote Thomas Jefferson... he was a slave owner. he benefitted from the FREE labor of those he owned. I'm quite sure he did not share the profits from the fruits of their labor. Have you read the bible that he made for himself?...
Slaves were already a highly valuable commodity. Here you have a person turned into property. That property works your land, raises your children, takes care of everything and you pay them nothing... if slave labor was not thought to be of value from the start, it would have never turned into the chattle slavery we speak of today. The early colonists saw everything as a commodity, the trees, the grass, the animals, the land itself and the people. African slaves were of more value because they could not go anywhere. They did not know the land like the Native Americans who were enslaved. And to further show how valuable slaves were just look at the Fugitive Slave Act. They made so-called free states hunt down, capture and return slaves who were able to run away from their masters.
Exercising Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding...
We don't want free stuff, we want a decent job so my husband can work to take care of us. I would bet real money the majority of people on PA feel the same way.
You must put it into the context of the times. Yes, slavery was horrible, but the US ended slavery in a very short time when taking into consideration the entire history of slavery throughout the world. Slavery was a problem the founders had to wrestle with as it was inherit with the revolution.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting Carpy:Many of those 600 were free men who were paid laborers. And many were inherited. He taught them to read and considered them family and as stated, he treated them much better than some. Most of the writings available from his slaves painted a very positive picture of him.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Funny you quote Thomas Jefferson... he was a slave owner. he benefitted from the FREE labor of those he owned. I'm quite sure he did not share the profits from the fruits of their labor. Have you read the bible that he made for himself?...
First let me state that slavery had nothing to do with time and geography and everything to do with economic gain. The economic gain of those who controlled things. It took a while for slavery to evolve into the institution that we know of today. And in order for capitalism to work and in order for a global economy to develop, millions and millions of people suffered. i'm talking about whites, blacks and natives to this land before colonization.
it was just very ironic that on a post about "people" getting "free stuff" you would quote a man who benefitted from free labor. Even take a look at the quote you used: "the democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not".
I say these things not to take away from his accomplishments. i understand from my research, that yes it was hard for those in a position of power to turn their back on slavery. though he was the principle author of the Declaration of Independence, he owned roughly 600 slaves throughout his lifetime. I'm always baffled that here were these great men fighting for their right to be free and yet they denied that freedom to millions of people just because of their skin color and for economic gain.
The fact that he was from Virginia is also a fascinating fact considering that the first African slaves in the colonies arrived in Virginia. Virginia was the colony to first institutionalize slavery by setting the laws that defined who was a slave and what it meant to be a slave. Virginia was first to declare that a child born of a slave woman would also be a slave regardless of the status of the father... ironic...
A slave is still a slave even if you the slave may be treated better than others. You are still the property of your owner. Any children that are born to a female slave are automatically slaves by birth. The fact that a slave can be inherited says volumes. And to say that there were slaves who painted a positive picture of him means not too much to me because, they were still slaves. A slave is still a slave, even if the owner teaches them how to read and write. Even if they are considered a "part of the family".
In the whole scheme of things, not that many people actually owned slaves, and after the founding the free slave numbers began rising and the slave numbers fell. Like I said, you must consider the times.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting Carpy:Me too. He did not want to end slave trade with African Countries because he feared making slaves a highly valuable commodity. People do not realize it but the way the Constitution was written, it was set up to bring the end to slavery.
Quoting imamomzilla:Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Funny you quote Thomas Jefferson... he was a slave owner. he benefitted from the FREE labor of those he owned. I'm quite sure he did not share the profits from the fruits of their labor. Have you read the bible that he made for himself?...
Slaves were already a highly valuable commodity. Here you have a person turned into property. That property works your land, raises your children, takes care of everything and you pay them nothing... if slave labor was not thought to be of value from the start, it would have never turned into the chattle slavery we speak of today. The early colonists saw everything as a commodity, the trees, the grass, the animals, the land itself and the people. African slaves were of more value because they could not go anywhere. They did not know the land like the Native Americans who were enslaved. And to further show how valuable slaves were just look at the Fugitive Slave Act. They made so-called free states hunt down, capture and return slaves who were able to run away from their masters.
Quoting Carpy:You must put it into the context of the times. Yes, slavery was horrible, but the US ended slavery in a very short time when taking into consideration the entire history of slavery throughout the world. Slavery was a problem the founders had to wrestle with as it was inherit with the revolution.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting Carpy:Many of those 600 were free men who were paid laborers. And many were inherited. He taught them to read and considered them family and as stated, he treated them much better than some. Most of the writings available from his slaves painted a very positive picture of him.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Funny you quote Thomas Jefferson... he was a slave owner. he benefitted from the FREE labor of those he owned. I'm quite sure he did not share the profits from the fruits of their labor. Have you read the bible that he made for himself?...
First let me state that slavery had nothing to do with time and geography and everything to do with economic gain. The economic gain of those who controlled things. It took a while for slavery to evolve into the institution that we know of today. And in order for capitalism to work and in order for a global economy to develop, millions and millions of people suffered. i'm talking about whites, blacks and natives to this land before colonization.
it was just very ironic that on a post about "people" getting "free stuff" you would quote a man who benefitted from free labor. Even take a look at the quote you used: "the democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not".
I say these things not to take away from his accomplishments. i understand from my research, that yes it was hard for those in a position of power to turn their back on slavery. though he was the principle author of the Declaration of Independence, he owned roughly 600 slaves throughout his lifetime. I'm always baffled that here were these great men fighting for their right to be free and yet they denied that freedom to millions of people just because of their skin color and for economic gain.
The fact that he was from Virginia is also a fascinating fact considering that the first African slaves in the colonies arrived in Virginia. Virginia was the colony to first institutionalize slavery by setting the laws that defined who was a slave and what it meant to be a slave. Virginia was first to declare that a child born of a slave woman would also be a slave regardless of the status of the father... ironic...
A slave is still a slave even if you the slave may be treated better than others. You are still the property of your owner. Any children that are born to a female slave are automatically slaves by birth. The fact that a slave can be inherited says volumes. And to say that there were slaves who painted a positive picture of him means not too much to me because, they were still slaves. A slave is still a slave, even if the owner teaches them how to read and write. Even if they are considered a "part of the family".
Point taken, slavery has been around since the beginning... that is true. However, what seperates slavery in other cultures and the chattle slavery of the West is that this is the first time that 1) slavery was for economic gain 2) slavery was race based 3) people could actually be born a slave (because of the mother's slave status)
It's not a fair comparison because up until colonization most slaves in different cultures were so after their people lost a war to another group. In these cases, slavery was a way to indoctrinate the conquered into the winner's society. This was how customs/ways of life were learned. Slaves did not stay slaves forever.
Slavery in the West (here in America and throughout the Caribbean and in South America) was a totally different beast. I don't understand why it is hard for people to accept the ugliness of it. Why do people try to water it down?
Exercising Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding...
Quoting Carpy:In the whole scheme of things, not that many people actually owned slaves, and after the founding the free slave numbers began rising and the slave numbers fell. Like I said, you must consider the times.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting Carpy:Me too. He did not want to end slave trade with African Countries because he feared making slaves a highly valuable commodity. People do not realize it but the way the Constitution was written, it was set up to bring the end to slavery.
Quoting imamomzilla:Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "The democracy (Republic) will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Funny you quote Thomas Jefferson... he was a slave owner. he benefitted from the FREE labor of those he owned. I'm quite sure he did not share the profits from the fruits of their labor. Have you read the bible that he made for himself?...
Slaves were already a highly valuable commodity. Here you have a person turned into property. That property works your land, raises your children, takes care of everything and you pay them nothing... if slave labor was not thought to be of value from the start, it would have never turned into the chattle slavery we speak of today. The early colonists saw everything as a commodity, the trees, the grass, the animals, the land itself and the people. African slaves were of more value because they could not go anywhere. They did not know the land like the Native Americans who were enslaved. And to further show how valuable slaves were just look at the Fugitive Slave Act. They made so-called free states hunt down, capture and return slaves who were able to run away from their masters.
I mean no disrespect, but where did you get that from? I'm sorry, but there were a lot of slave owners. From early 1600's thru emancipation there were millions of slaves here in America. Some estimates say that if you look at the time frame from 1666 - 1776, 3 million were imported for the English colonies alone (about 250,000 died during the middle passage). Look at the colonial era, there were English colonies, Spanish colonies, French colonies and Dutch. All had slaves.
this is my area of expertise and a subject very dear to me as I am a descendent of slaves. I'm working on a research project on the economics of slavery right now and in the future I will be the first to detail/chronical the complete story of slavery in America not just talking about African and African American slaves, but native American slaves, the truth about indentured servitude and also White European slaves and Chinese as well...
Exercising Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding...
Actually, in his Will he stipulated for a number of them to be set free. He was a slave owner by inheritance and prohibited by Virginia law from freeing them...legislature he fought to overturn. He drafted a clause that all people born on VA soil would be born free.
I really don't see the point of demonizing a past president who shaped this country's foundation and democracy. His actions in life demonstrated an abhorrence to slavery.
Again, put all of that into historical context. Some of the things practiced then, such as the treatment of blood letting, would seem outrageous now considering the advancements we've made in medicine.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
While I can only speculate, I assume he must have felt morally conflicted too. It's important to put it into historical context. TJ died in 1826 and slavery wasn't finally abolished until 1865.
He died poor and in debt. If his motivation was economic gain, one would deduce that he's sell a few. Like I'd said, from my research, many of his servants were treated like members of the family.
Quoting mommygiggles317:
Quoting imamomzilla:
Actually, a couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary which included his biography. Yes, he did own slaves...ironic considering all his other accomplishments. While some may consider that a blemish, one should take into consideration the time frame and geography. Monticello could not have functioned without them. In many of their memoirs, the servants were considered members of the family and treated very well.
His views on faith and humanity are often distorted and misinterpreted.
I've found him to be a fascinating man....my favorite Founding Father and quote his words quite often.
:-)
Quoting mommygiggles317:
*snip
Yes, he did die poor and in debt, and guess what happened. Slaves of his were sold off to pay off his debts. I'm sure the documentary you saw spoke about that. And the same is true for a large number of slave owners. Even if a slave owner promised to free his slaves upon his/her death, if a debt was owed, the slaves were not freed. They were sold to clear the debt. Remember, regardless of how "well" a slave may have been treated, he/she was still a slave. Slaves were property, not regarded as human. A slave had no rights. A slave had no say.
Florist counter-sues to not supply gay wedding
- Carpy
on Apr. 13, 2012 at 7:38 AM