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News & Politics News & Politics

America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers

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“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”  

Abe Lincoln used those words in 1858 to describe a country that was careening toward civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.  

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers. 

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments,  from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.   

The private sector built the strongest economy in the world.  It armed the free world in World War Two, and then in the three decades after the war turned America into the most prosperous society history had ever seen.  It revived America in the  Reagan and Clinton years, and thanks to the Bush tax cuts brought this country back from economic collapse after 9/11.

In those same years a growing public sector, by contrast, turned Europe into a cesspool of debt, stalled economies, and chronic social dysfunction that’s set the streets of Athens -- and perhaps other European capitals--on fire.  

That’s where we’re headed, too, more rapidly than we like to think.  

That public sector–state, local, and federal -- now consumes 40% of GDP, compared to 33% just twelve years ago. It’s brought us to the point where 48% of Americans are now on some form of government handout, from 44% when Obama took office–almost a fifth more than during the Reagan years. And too many of them have been programmed to believe they have no future unless the government takes more from the Makers -- precisely what Obama promised on Monday.

So we know which side Obama and the Democratic party are on. Like John Brown’s raid on Harper’s Ferry,  ObamaCare has been a wakeup call to what’s at stake–just as the turbulent events in Wisconsin showed how far Democrats are willing to go to win.  

We’re not Greece yet -- or on the brink of Bull Run. But it’s time for Romney and Republicans to make clear which side they’re on -- and to make it clear there can’t be government transfer payments, from Medicaid to Social Security, without a strong vibrant private sector to pay for them.

They don’t have to stoop to the Democrats’ tactics.  They just have to give our free market, private sector economy the robust defense it deserves.  

A country where more Americans go on Social Security disability than get jobs -- as happened last month--can’t stand. 

Lincoln hoped in 1861 that the “angels of our better nature” would pull us back from catastrophe. He was wrong. Let’s hope in 2012 those angels still hover -- and can make a house divided whole once more.

Historian is the author of the just released "Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II" (Random House May 2012) and the Pulitzer Prize finalist book "Gandhi and Churchill: The Epic Rivalry That Destroyed an Empire and Forged Our Age" (Bantam, 2008). 

by on Jul. 13, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Replies (41-50):
Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 8:51 AM
1 mom liked this

I have yet to see you back up yours.  Mine relies often on common sense.  Do you think the wealthy have their money buried in the back yard?  Common sense SHOULD tell you how the stock market functions.  You obviously have no clue, which is why I will repeat:  Try to educate yourself.

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, don't talk down to me when you have absolutely no proof, facts, statistics of what you are saying. This is more of your "truth according to what I wish".

notice you never have anything to back up your eroneous claims that does not come from a highly subjective/skewed right wing source.?You are the one that needs to review how the economy works, but that won't happen, because the facts have a liberal bias...so you will just ignore them and make up your own "truth"


Quoting Carpy:

When rich people have more money they tend to INVEST it, thereby providing working and startup capital to other businesses that otherwise may not get started or stay in business.  Try to educate yourself on the economy a bit more, please.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.




Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM

Maybe this will help you

http://www.enotes.com/capital-markets-reference/capital-markets-174144

LBAY
by Bronze Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM
2 moms liked this
Carpy, again, stop with your bs. Deregulation is what led to the financial situation we are in.

Show me some facts from a reputable unbiased source that says govnt regulations have anything to do with Preventing job creation, and that deregulation did not run rampant during bush years leading to the mess we are in. PROOF! no, you don't get to run around talking about how no one knows anything but you when you have zero fact to back up anything.

More truth according to what you wish.

Quoting Carpy:

And given the circumstances, no there should not be more jobs right now because America is strangling in regulations.  And don't give me the clean water and air BS, because again, you would be proving that you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS on the economy.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.




Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:01 AM

75,000+ pages in the federal registy.  Seems like it should shrink not grow.

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, again, stop with your bs. Deregulation is what led to the financial situation we are in.

Show me some facts from a reputable unbiased source that says govnt regulations have anything to do with Preventing job creation, and that deregulation did not run rampant during bush years leading to the mess we are in. PROOF! no, you don't get to run around talking about how no one knows anything but you when you have zero fact to back up anything.

More truth according to what you wish.

Quoting Carpy:

And given the circumstances, no there should not be more jobs right now because America is strangling in regulations.  And don't give me the clean water and air BS, because again, you would be proving that you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS on the economy.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.





Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:02 AM
1 mom liked this

Show you some facts?  Are you freaking serious?  Go read the federal registry. 

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, again, stop with your bs. Deregulation is what led to the financial situation we are in.

Show me some facts from a reputable unbiased source that says govnt regulations have anything to do with Preventing job creation, and that deregulation did not run rampant during bush years leading to the mess we are in. PROOF! no, you don't get to run around talking about how no one knows anything but you when you have zero fact to back up anything.

More truth according to what you wish.

Quoting Carpy:

And given the circumstances, no there should not be more jobs right now because America is strangling in regulations.  And don't give me the clean water and air BS, because again, you would be proving that you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS on the economy.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.





Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:03 AM

And I am living the proof.

Carpy
by Platinum Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:05 AM

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/fedregulations_2.htm

LBAY
by Bronze Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:06 AM
1 mom liked this
Carpy, get over your self. I can always back up my claims with fact and in the over whelming majority of my posts offer links, facts, figures, statistics, etc. but they will be ignored by you, or dismissed as a simple "i don't believe it."

Your common sense is sadly, nonsensicle and you never have any thing to back it up. More truth according to what you wish.


Quoting Carpy:

I have yet to see you back up yours.  Mine relies often on common sense.  Do you think the wealthy have their money buried in the back yard?  Common sense SHOULD tell you how the stock market functions.  You obviously have no clue, which is why I will repeat:  Try to educate yourself.

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, don't talk down to me when you have absolutely no proof, facts, statistics of what you are saying. This is more of your "truth according to what I wish".



notice you never have anything to back up your eroneous claims that does not come from a highly subjective/skewed right wing source.?You are the one that needs to review how the economy works, but that won't happen, because the facts have a liberal bias...so you will just ignore them and make up your own "truth"





Quoting Carpy:

When rich people have more money they tend to INVEST it, thereby providing working and startup capital to other businesses that otherwise may not get started or stay in business.  Try to educate yourself on the economy a bit more, please.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .





We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.






Posted on CafeMom Mobile
LBAY
by Bronze Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:08 AM
You show me the facts that back up your claims.

Proof according to what you wish...


Quoting Carpy:

Show you some facts?  Are you freaking serious?  Go read the federal registry. 

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, again, stop with your bs. Deregulation is what led to the financial situation we are in.

Show me some facts from a reputable unbiased source that says govnt regulations have anything to do with Preventing job creation, and that deregulation did not run rampant during bush years leading to the mess we are in. PROOF! no, you don't get to run around talking about how no one knows anything but you when you have zero fact to back up anything.

More truth according to what you wish.


Quoting Carpy:

And given the circumstances, no there should not be more jobs right now because America is strangling in regulations.  And don't give me the clean water and air BS, because again, you would be proving that you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS on the economy.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.







Posted on CafeMom Mobile
LBAY
by Bronze Member on Jul. 14, 2012 at 9:10 AM
So the number of pages proves your point? I dont think so. The proof carpy? Where is it?

more truth according to what you wish...


Quoting Carpy:

75,000+ pages in the federal registy.  Seems like it should shrink not grow.

Quoting LBAY:

Carpy, again, stop with your bs. Deregulation is what led to the financial situation we are in.

Show me some facts from a reputable unbiased source that says govnt regulations have anything to do with Preventing job creation, and that deregulation did not run rampant during bush years leading to the mess we are in. PROOF! no, you don't get to run around talking about how no one knows anything but you when you have zero fact to back up anything.

More truth according to what you wish.


Quoting Carpy:

And given the circumstances, no there should not be more jobs right now because America is strangling in regulations.  And don't give me the clean water and air BS, because again, you would be proving that you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS on the economy.

Quoting LBAY:

The point is to put into to the pot, to benefit everyone. I pay taxes, so do other people, and combined we have enough to have programs that benefit all of us, like social security, public schools, medicare when you are old, the military and police to keep us safe, the post office, the fire dept, etc,etc.

The issue is being framed that people who contribute nothing are getting the benefit from my money. That is not true . My tax dollars, along with everyone elses, goes into the common pot-- I am contributing and I am also receiving. That is a good thing.

Furthermore, these people who make so much money that they can't spend it in 10 life times, but don't want a 3% increase on taxes...they are making record profits, with the lowest taxes in history. If the argument is that they are job creators, where are the jobs? Given the circumstances, there should be more jobs right now, not less. It's that simple.

I want the economy to improve just like everyone else. If there was any merit to this idea of trickle down economics, I would be all for it. But this is a policy that has failed repeatedly, and all that grows is the gap between rich and poor.

All this emphasis on Low taxes for businesses to improve the economy. The reality is that no matter how low the taxes are, a business won't thrive without customers. And right now customers are not buying because they are struggling to make ends meet. "Trickle up" economics is what we need...it works! for example, when I have more money, I can go buy a car, that means I am also buying car insurance, and gas, and paying to get it cleaned, and the oil changed, and paying tolls which contribute to construction jobs to keep the roads in good condition, etc. when rich people have more money they tend to save it, rather than pump it back into the economy. that is why when middle class people have more money to spend it improves the economy over all, and benefits everyone including the rich guy who owns the car dealership to the blue collar guy who works at the garage. If it takes pumping some money into the economy in the form of tax increases from those who have more than they could ever use, its a good thing for everyone, including the rich guy.

The problem right now is that the middle class is struggling and shrinking. fewer jobs, means more strain on govnt programs, with less contribution, while less money is pumped into the market place. If you want, the economy to improve, focus on the middle class, not the rich. The answer is not cutting govnt programs, because that leads to even more shrinkage in market place spending as people have even less. If you have no money, you can't spend it at a business, which affects the economy on a much larger scale. It's a cycle .



We are individuals, but as a society, we do effect each other, which is why this idea of rugged individualism is bad for our economy. if each person only affected themselves, and we weren't inter dependant, then there would be no such thing as a recession.







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