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News & Politics News & Politics

"Do The Atheists In Wisconsin Realize They're Going To Hell?"

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by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 8:55 PM
Replies (31-40):
Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Nov. 17, 2012 at 12:55 AM

I agree ~ and disagree with that. If something has already been there for years, I'm more in favor of letting them be. Christians help pay for public lands just as much as any other religious/non-religious group in the country.

But, when it comes to adding new things, I also feel that it's right to include everyone ~ or no one.

I don't have a problem with other symbols, but I get pretty angsty when it comes to only removing Christian oens. The only time I agree with doing so (and there have been times when I did), was when other groups wanted to add something and were denied. That is wrong imo, unless it's something that's just tacky or spiteful. That doesn't happen often, but it isn't unheard of.

I just see a distinct difference between government 'allowing' things and 'sponsoring' things ~ it's when they have allowed Christian things and won't allow others that I consider it as 'favoring', if that makes sense.

Quoting romalove:

I understand why Christians get upset over removal of iconography from places that have previously allowed such things. That doesn't mean they are right to want to keep religious representations on public governmental lands.



Quoting Farmlady09:

 


Quoting romalove:


 


Quoting Farmlady09:


 


Quoting romalove:


 


Quoting Farmlady09:


Going to church is far from the only way that Christians practice their religion. Whether you don't know that, don't understand that, or don't care is immaterial. Christians are effectively being bullied and/or harrassed at this point into silence and hiding.


Yes, I said bullying. If a group of kids constantly makes fun of another child and causes them emotional pain, it is called bullying.


If a group of adults do this to another adult, it is called harrassment.


Unless you're a hypocrite, if you consider a Christian student telling a gay student they believe it is wrong, or they will go to hell  or to go back in their closet ~ than it's JUST as wrong for any Atheist to tell a Christian they have an invisible friend or they need to keep it in their home/church.


Either both situations are wrong, or both are ok. Personally I think both are wrong. It's obvious that there are quite a few people who make do with situational ethics.



 


Quoting LucyMom08:

When have Christians been stopped from going to church?


Quoting SallyMJ:


This stuff is both funny and absurd. Many Americans seem to forget that the First Amendment freedom of religion consists of two parts:


1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,


2) Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.


The last 10-20 years, liberals seem to forget about the "free exercise" portion of religious freedom.


 


 Nonsense.


You can practice your religion as long as you aren't infringing on someone else.  If your religion requires you to infringe on someone else's rights, we have a problem.


Telling someone that they think their God is imaginary is not the same thing as telling a gay person they are going to hell or go back in the closet.


I'm an atheist and I'm told I'm going to hell all the time, lol, or how wrong I am, or how sorry I will be when I meet God after I die.  Not believing or believing is a choice, and if someone wants to challenge my choice, we can discuss it.


Being gay isn't a choice.  It would be like attacking a person for their skin color.


ETA:  Christians are about three fourths of all the people in the country.  It is hilarious to say they are being bullied into silence and hiding.  LOLOL


You're just one more prime example ~ and even my gay son can't honestly determine 'why' or 'how' he is gay. He would also tell you that if you are being deliberately hurtful the problem is yours ~ and you should keep it to yourself rather than tell a religious person to keep it to themselves.


Whether you are right or wrong, whether I (as a Christian) am right or wrong is a moot point. Arguing about it, or even debating it is pointless. Everyone WILL eventually find out (or fade into oblivion or join other spirits in the cosmos) and every one will have to live with their rightness or wrongness. I'm ok with that.


I'm not saying that Christians are without blame ~ because NO Christian has a right to say "you're going to hell". Saying "the Bible says so" is acceptable only if it's part of a much greater message. Threatening someone or verbally beating someone is hardly a productive way to convey a message of love imo. People believe what they believe. I'll agree that giving people a chance to not believe on their own is ok, but not with bashing.


That being said, bullying is still bullying. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not ~ the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it, or destroy symbols of it just because they made a different choice.


If it was wrong to burn a Quran because it upsets Muslims, than leave Christian things alone. I don't walk around looking for ways to bash anyone who believes something different, or wears different clothing, or chooses to drive a 'smart car' (even though I think they are ridiculous and basically unsafe).


I don't even mind if a person chooses to be deliberately hurtful, unless they make excuses or divert the blame for their choices.


Btw, I couldn't get any of the videos to actually play ~ so what I've posted is just my opinion on the overall subject and going from the titles in the links. Imo, trying to tear down a religious statue or a manger is way over the top. At that point both cheeks have been slapped, and people should expect Christians to be angry (especially those who have no problem with Muslim riots in other countries because someone burned a book here).


 I don't watch videos that are posted or click on links, so I didn't listen either.


I don't know what you mean by I'm a prime example.  Of what? 


Where was I deliberately hurtful?  Because I think it's funny you speak of Christians hiding and silent when they are everywhere, omnipresent, and very very vocal?  They are on television stations and shows and radio shows and I live in a town of less than 50,000 people and we have about 20 churches within the township and we are not unusual.  If you mean Christians are hesitant to tell people what they really think, I'm not seeing it.  I do see that when they say it, there are people who disagree.


It's everyone's right to disagree.



I usually watch them ~ just pay attention to my security warnings, but these wouldn't play at all.


I meant you're a prime example of people who don't seem to understand/care why Christians get upset at things like a statue being removed or demands to remove a manger scene. As far as I can tell from what you typed, you don't. That isn't a good or bad reflection ~ just saying that if you think differently I can't really tell.


Nothing you said was hurtful, although labeling someone else's feelings as hilarious is cutting it close. I don't mind disagreement, but deliberately mocking others doesn't mean anyone wins ~ it just means there is no more conversation (or debate if that was the original intent). Sorry if you thought I meant you specifically ... I didn't.


I don't have any problem with outright disagreement btw. We all are what we are ... what I do have a problem with are those who will only say it's ok to mock one religion, slam one religion, etc. In particular, those who state that they have had a personal experience and seem determined to take it out on every member of that religion (and/or defend other religions at the same time). I do have a problem with those who say 'keep it at home or in church' ~ that is just so far removed from what the constitution says, and when it comes from someone who wants respect for their own choice of no religion, it's just an insult.


Wish I could find another link to the video though ... does anyone have one?


Friday
by Platinum Member on Nov. 17, 2012 at 1:02 AM


Quoting Farmlady09:

Yes ~ that is exactly what it is.

Quoting autodidact:

so then it's bullying when christians on here tell me I'm not a good citizen, or a good parent, or decent human being, or that I misscarried, because I'm an atheist, right? 

freedom of speech includes the right to be an asshole, like it or not. 

Quoting Farmlady09:


Quoting romalove:

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

Going to church is far from the only way that Christians practice their religion. Whether you don't know that, don't understand that, or don't care is immaterial. Christians are effectively being bullied and/or harrassed at this point into silence and hiding.

Yes, I said bullying. If a group of kids constantly makes fun of another child and causes them emotional pain, it is called bullying.

If a group of adults do this to another adult, it is called harrassment.

Unless you're a hypocrite, if you consider a Christian student telling a gay student they believe it is wrong, or they will go to hell  or to go back in their closet ~ than it's JUST as wrong for any Atheist to tell a Christian they have an invisible friend or they need to keep it in their home/church.

Either both situations are wrong, or both are ok. Personally I think both are wrong. It's obvious that there are quite a few people who make do with situational ethics.


 

Quoting LucyMom08:

When have Christians been stopped from going to church?

Quoting SallyMJ:

This stuff is both funny and absurd. Many Americans seem to forget that the First Amendment freedom of religion consists of two parts:

1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

2) Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The last 10-20 years, liberals seem to forget about the "free exercise" portion of religious freedom.


 Nonsense.

You can practice your religion as long as you aren't infringing on someone else.  If your religion requires you to infringe on someone else's rights, we have a problem.

Telling someone that they think their God is imaginary is not the same thing as telling a gay person they are going to hell or go back in the closet.

I'm an atheist and I'm told I'm going to hell all the time, lol, or how wrong I am, or how sorry I will be when I meet God after I die.  Not believing or believing is a choice, and if someone wants to challenge my choice, we can discuss it.

Being gay isn't a choice.  It would be like attacking a person for their skin color.

ETA:  Christians are about three fourths of all the people in the country.  It is hilarious to say they are being bullied into silence and hiding.  LOLOL

You're just one more prime example ~ and even my gay son can't honestly determine 'why' or 'how' he is gay. He would also tell you that if you are being deliberately hurtful the problem is yours ~ and you should keep it to yourself rather than tell a religious person to keep it to themselves.

Whether you are right or wrong, whether I (as a Christian) am right or wrong is a moot point. Arguing about it, or even debating it is pointless. Everyone WILL eventually find out (or fade into oblivion or join other spirits in the cosmos) and every one will have to live with their rightness or wrongness. I'm ok with that.

I'm not saying that Christians are without blame ~ because NO Christian has a right to say "you're going to hell". Saying "the Bible says so" is acceptable only if it's part of a much greater message. Threatening someone or verbally beating someone is hardly a productive way to convey a message of love imo. People believe what they believe. I'll agree that giving people a chance to not believe on their own is ok, but not with bashing.

That being said, bullying is still bullying. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not ~ the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it, or destroy symbols of it just because they made a different choice.

If it was wrong to burn a Quran because it upsets Muslims, than leave Christian things alone. I don't walk around looking for ways to bash anyone who believes something different, or wears different clothing, or chooses to drive a 'smart car' (even though I think they are ridiculous and basically unsafe).

I don't even mind if a person chooses to be deliberately hurtful, unless they make excuses or divert the blame for their choices.

Btw, I couldn't get any of the videos to actually play ~ so what I've posted is just my opinion on the overall subject and going from the titles in the links. Imo, trying to tear down a religious statue or a manger is way over the top. At that point both cheeks have been slapped, and people should expect Christians to be angry (especially those who have no problem with Muslim riots in other countries because someone burned a book here).



Interesting, since I've been told, by more CM Christians than I can count, that it's just their beliefs so they have every right to express them and I can't be offended. I, of course, told them that was nonsense and they started crying about being persecuted.


Church of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves)

Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Nov. 17, 2012 at 1:18 AM


Quoting Friday:


Quoting Farmlady09:

Yes ~ that is exactly what it is.

Quoting autodidact:

so then it's bullying when christians on here tell me I'm not a good citizen, or a good parent, or decent human being, or that I misscarried, because I'm an atheist, right? 

freedom of speech includes the right to be an asshole, like it or not. 

Quoting Farmlady09:

 

Quoting romalove:

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

Going to church is far from the only way that Christians practice their religion. Whether you don't know that, don't understand that, or don't care is immaterial. Christians are effectively being bullied and/or harrassed at this point into silence and hiding.

Yes, I said bullying. If a group of kids constantly makes fun of another child and causes them emotional pain, it is called bullying.

If a group of adults do this to another adult, it is called harrassment.

Unless you're a hypocrite, if you consider a Christian student telling a gay student they believe it is wrong, or they will go to hell  or to go back in their closet ~ than it's JUST as wrong for any Atheist to tell a Christian they have an invisible friend or they need to keep it in their home/church.

Either both situations are wrong, or both are ok. Personally I think both are wrong. It's obvious that there are quite a few people who make do with situational ethics.


 

Quoting LucyMom08:

When have Christians been stopped from going to church?

Quoting SallyMJ:

This stuff is both funny and absurd. Many Americans seem to forget that the First Amendment freedom of religion consists of two parts:

1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

2) Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The last 10-20 years, liberals seem to forget about the "free exercise" portion of religious freedom.

 

 Nonsense.

You can practice your religion as long as you aren't infringing on someone else.  If your religion requires you to infringe on someone else's rights, we have a problem.

Telling someone that they think their God is imaginary is not the same thing as telling a gay person they are going to hell or go back in the closet.

I'm an atheist and I'm told I'm going to hell all the time, lol, or how wrong I am, or how sorry I will be when I meet God after I die.  Not believing or believing is a choice, and if someone wants to challenge my choice, we can discuss it.

Being gay isn't a choice.  It would be like attacking a person for their skin color.

ETA:  Christians are about three fourths of all the people in the country.  It is hilarious to say they are being bullied into silence and hiding.  LOLOL

You're just one more prime example ~ and even my gay son can't honestly determine 'why' or 'how' he is gay. He would also tell you that if you are being deliberately hurtful the problem is yours ~ and you should keep it to yourself rather than tell a religious person to keep it to themselves.

Whether you are right or wrong, whether I (as a Christian) am right or wrong is a moot point. Arguing about it, or even debating it is pointless. Everyone WILL eventually find out (or fade into oblivion or join other spirits in the cosmos) and every one will have to live with their rightness or wrongness. I'm ok with that.

I'm not saying that Christians are without blame ~ because NO Christian has a right to say "you're going to hell". Saying "the Bible says so" is acceptable only if it's part of a much greater message. Threatening someone or verbally beating someone is hardly a productive way to convey a message of love imo. People believe what they believe. I'll agree that giving people a chance to not believe on their own is ok, but not with bashing.

That being said, bullying is still bullying. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not ~ the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it, or destroy symbols of it just because they made a different choice.

If it was wrong to burn a Quran because it upsets Muslims, than leave Christian things alone. I don't walk around looking for ways to bash anyone who believes something different, or wears different clothing, or chooses to drive a 'smart car' (even though I think they are ridiculous and basically unsafe).

I don't even mind if a person chooses to be deliberately hurtful, unless they make excuses or divert the blame for their choices.

Btw, I couldn't get any of the videos to actually play ~ so what I've posted is just my opinion on the overall subject and going from the titles in the links. Imo, trying to tear down a religious statue or a manger is way over the top. At that point both cheeks have been slapped, and people should expect Christians to be angry (especially those who have no problem with Muslim riots in other countries because someone burned a book here).

 

 

Interesting, since I've been told, by more CM Christians than I can count, that it's just their beliefs so they have every right to express them and I can't be offended. I, of course, told them that was nonsense and they started crying about being persecuted.

Everyone in the US has a right to express their beliefs ~ and everyone has a right to be offended. The way our constitution is written, it's more like we're guaranteed to be offended.

That being said, no Christian has any knowledge of who is going to heaven or hell, nor are Christians supposed to judge. I do see a difference between "You're going to hell" as a casual observation or a rebuttal in any debate, and someone saying that they believe what the Bible says, or stating that the Bible says those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. That is just a statement that is factual as far as what is written in the Bible. Christians are supposed to reach out to others, not whack people over the head with their belief or drive people away by being offensive.

People are going to believe what they believe. I don't see anything offensive about offering a discussion ~ but if it is refused quit pushing. There is no reason to be hateful or act like one has some sort of moral authority over others ~ and any Christian who has actually read their Bible knows that (or should).

I understand people can react badly sometimes. I also understand that there are people who insist on acting badly consistently. Sometimes I'm no better ... particularly when someone lumps me in with bashers without ever having a conversation with me, or immediately goes to 'yeah, you and your invisible friend ... or keep it in your church and shut up', that sort of thing.

My problem with all the Christmas issues is that it's my favorite holiday, from both a religious and a secular standpoint. The constant fighting and anger takes something away. I just think people should be allowed to enjoy whatever part/all of it regardless of how the neighbors or the guy across town does things.

Friday
by Platinum Member on Nov. 17, 2012 at 1:28 AM


Quoting Farmlady09:


Quoting Friday:


Quoting Farmlady09:

Yes ~ that is exactly what it is.

Quoting autodidact:

so then it's bullying when christians on here tell me I'm not a good citizen, or a good parent, or decent human being, or that I misscarried, because I'm an atheist, right? 

freedom of speech includes the right to be an asshole, like it or not. 

Quoting Farmlady09:


Quoting romalove:

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

Going to church is far from the only way that Christians practice their religion. Whether you don't know that, don't understand that, or don't care is immaterial. Christians are effectively being bullied and/or harrassed at this point into silence and hiding.

Yes, I said bullying. If a group of kids constantly makes fun of another child and causes them emotional pain, it is called bullying.

If a group of adults do this to another adult, it is called harrassment.

Unless you're a hypocrite, if you consider a Christian student telling a gay student they believe it is wrong, or they will go to hell  or to go back in their closet ~ than it's JUST as wrong for any Atheist to tell a Christian they have an invisible friend or they need to keep it in their home/church.

Either both situations are wrong, or both are ok. Personally I think both are wrong. It's obvious that there are quite a few people who make do with situational ethics.


 

Quoting LucyMom08:

When have Christians been stopped from going to church?

Quoting SallyMJ:

This stuff is both funny and absurd. Many Americans seem to forget that the First Amendment freedom of religion consists of two parts:

1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

2) Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The last 10-20 years, liberals seem to forget about the "free exercise" portion of religious freedom.


 Nonsense.

You can practice your religion as long as you aren't infringing on someone else.  If your religion requires you to infringe on someone else's rights, we have a problem.

Telling someone that they think their God is imaginary is not the same thing as telling a gay person they are going to hell or go back in the closet.

I'm an atheist and I'm told I'm going to hell all the time, lol, or how wrong I am, or how sorry I will be when I meet God after I die.  Not believing or believing is a choice, and if someone wants to challenge my choice, we can discuss it.

Being gay isn't a choice.  It would be like attacking a person for their skin color.

ETA:  Christians are about three fourths of all the people in the country.  It is hilarious to say they are being bullied into silence and hiding.  LOLOL

You're just one more prime example ~ and even my gay son can't honestly determine 'why' or 'how' he is gay. He would also tell you that if you are being deliberately hurtful the problem is yours ~ and you should keep it to yourself rather than tell a religious person to keep it to themselves.

Whether you are right or wrong, whether I (as a Christian) am right or wrong is a moot point. Arguing about it, or even debating it is pointless. Everyone WILL eventually find out (or fade into oblivion or join other spirits in the cosmos) and every one will have to live with their rightness or wrongness. I'm ok with that.

I'm not saying that Christians are without blame ~ because NO Christian has a right to say "you're going to hell". Saying "the Bible says so" is acceptable only if it's part of a much greater message. Threatening someone or verbally beating someone is hardly a productive way to convey a message of love imo. People believe what they believe. I'll agree that giving people a chance to not believe on their own is ok, but not with bashing.

That being said, bullying is still bullying. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not ~ the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it, or destroy symbols of it just because they made a different choice.

If it was wrong to burn a Quran because it upsets Muslims, than leave Christian things alone. I don't walk around looking for ways to bash anyone who believes something different, or wears different clothing, or chooses to drive a 'smart car' (even though I think they are ridiculous and basically unsafe).

I don't even mind if a person chooses to be deliberately hurtful, unless they make excuses or divert the blame for their choices.

Btw, I couldn't get any of the videos to actually play ~ so what I've posted is just my opinion on the overall subject and going from the titles in the links. Imo, trying to tear down a religious statue or a manger is way over the top. At that point both cheeks have been slapped, and people should expect Christians to be angry (especially those who have no problem with Muslim riots in other countries because someone burned a book here).



Interesting, since I've been told, by more CM Christians than I can count, that it's just their beliefs so they have every right to express them and I can't be offended. I, of course, told them that was nonsense and they started crying about being persecuted.

Everyone in the US has a right to express their beliefs ~ and everyone has a right to be offended. The way our constitution is written, it's more like we're guaranteed to be offended.

That being said, no Christian has any knowledge of who is going to heaven or hell, nor are Christians supposed to judge. I do see a difference between "You're going to hell" as a casual observation or a rebuttal in any debate, and someone saying that they believe what the Bible says, or stating that the Bible says those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. That is just a statement that is factual as far as what is written in the Bible. Christians are supposed to reach out to others, not whack people over the head with their belief or drive people away by being offensive.

People are going to believe what they believe. I don't see anything offensive about offering a discussion ~ but if it is refused quit pushing. There is no reason to be hateful or act like one has some sort of moral authority over others ~ and any Christian who has actually read their Bible knows that (or should).

I understand people can react badly sometimes. I also understand that there are people who insist on acting badly consistently. Sometimes I'm no better ... particularly when someone lumps me in with bashers without ever having a conversation with me, or immediately goes to 'yeah, you and your invisible friend ... or keep it in your church and shut up', that sort of thing.

My problem with all the Christmas issues is that it's my favorite holiday, from both a religious and a secular standpoint. The constant fighting and anger takes something away. I just think people should be allowed to enjoy whatever part/all of it regardless of how the neighbors or the guy across town does things.

We might not agree on much but I can respect your POV.


Church of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves)

romalove
by SenseandSensibility on Nov. 17, 2012 at 7:54 AM

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

I agree ~ and disagree with that. If something has already been there for years, I'm more in favor of letting them be. Christians help pay for public lands just as much as any other religious/non-religious group in the country.

But, when it comes to adding new things, I also feel that it's right to include everyone ~ or no one.

I don't have a problem with other symbols, but I get pretty angsty when it comes to only removing Christian oens. The only time I agree with doing so (and there have been times when I did), was when other groups wanted to add something and were denied. That is wrong imo, unless it's something that's just tacky or spiteful. That doesn't happen often, but it isn't unheard of.

I just see a distinct difference between government 'allowing' things and 'sponsoring' things ~ it's when they have allowed Christian things and won't allow others that I consider it as 'favoring', if that makes sense.

Now that I am not on mobile, I cut some trees.

There are a few problems with your argument, IMO.  First, because Christianity has been the supermajority major religion in this country for so long, wanting to "grandfather in", so to speak, religious iconography and materials on government properties already in place leaves many places with only Christian things on the public square.  For the same reason, you will see mostly Christian things taken off due to First Amendment conflict.  You can't remove what hasn't been there. 

You can't include "everyone" because there are too many religions, and of course there are people who have no religion at all.  Since most of the country is comprised of places that are not governmental public, it leaves wide berth for those religious materials and iconography to be displayed.  There is no reason to also extend that to governmental public places, which should be free from seeming to endorse any one particular, or even all, religions. 

Your last paragraph would make more sense if my first big paragraph above wasn't true, but it is. 

romalove
by SenseandSensibility on Nov. 17, 2012 at 8:00 AM

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

 

Quoting Friday:


Quoting Farmlady09:

Yes ~ that is exactly what it is.

Quoting autodidact:

so then it's bullying when christians on here tell me I'm not a good citizen, or a good parent, or decent human being, or that I misscarried, because I'm an atheist, right? 

freedom of speech includes the right to be an asshole, like it or not. 

Quoting Farmlady09:

 

Quoting romalove:

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

Going to church is far from the only way that Christians practice their religion. Whether you don't know that, don't understand that, or don't care is immaterial. Christians are effectively being bullied and/or harrassed at this point into silence and hiding.

Yes, I said bullying. If a group of kids constantly makes fun of another child and causes them emotional pain, it is called bullying.

If a group of adults do this to another adult, it is called harrassment.

Unless you're a hypocrite, if you consider a Christian student telling a gay student they believe it is wrong, or they will go to hell  or to go back in their closet ~ than it's JUST as wrong for any Atheist to tell a Christian they have an invisible friend or they need to keep it in their home/church.

Either both situations are wrong, or both are ok. Personally I think both are wrong. It's obvious that there are quite a few people who make do with situational ethics.


 

Quoting LucyMom08:

When have Christians been stopped from going to church?

Quoting SallyMJ:

This stuff is both funny and absurd. Many Americans seem to forget that the First Amendment freedom of religion consists of two parts:

1) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

2) Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The last 10-20 years, liberals seem to forget about the "free exercise" portion of religious freedom.

 

 Nonsense.

You can practice your religion as long as you aren't infringing on someone else.  If your religion requires you to infringe on someone else's rights, we have a problem.

Telling someone that they think their God is imaginary is not the same thing as telling a gay person they are going to hell or go back in the closet.

I'm an atheist and I'm told I'm going to hell all the time, lol, or how wrong I am, or how sorry I will be when I meet God after I die.  Not believing or believing is a choice, and if someone wants to challenge my choice, we can discuss it.

Being gay isn't a choice.  It would be like attacking a person for their skin color.

ETA:  Christians are about three fourths of all the people in the country.  It is hilarious to say they are being bullied into silence and hiding.  LOLOL

You're just one more prime example ~ and even my gay son can't honestly determine 'why' or 'how' he is gay. He would also tell you that if you are being deliberately hurtful the problem is yours ~ and you should keep it to yourself rather than tell a religious person to keep it to themselves.

Whether you are right or wrong, whether I (as a Christian) am right or wrong is a moot point. Arguing about it, or even debating it is pointless. Everyone WILL eventually find out (or fade into oblivion or join other spirits in the cosmos) and every one will have to live with their rightness or wrongness. I'm ok with that.

I'm not saying that Christians are without blame ~ because NO Christian has a right to say "you're going to hell". Saying "the Bible says so" is acceptable only if it's part of a much greater message. Threatening someone or verbally beating someone is hardly a productive way to convey a message of love imo. People believe what they believe. I'll agree that giving people a chance to not believe on their own is ok, but not with bashing.

That being said, bullying is still bullying. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not ~ the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it, or destroy symbols of it just because they made a different choice.

If it was wrong to burn a Quran because it upsets Muslims, than leave Christian things alone. I don't walk around looking for ways to bash anyone who believes something different, or wears different clothing, or chooses to drive a 'smart car' (even though I think they are ridiculous and basically unsafe).

I don't even mind if a person chooses to be deliberately hurtful, unless they make excuses or divert the blame for their choices.

Btw, I couldn't get any of the videos to actually play ~ so what I've posted is just my opinion on the overall subject and going from the titles in the links. Imo, trying to tear down a religious statue or a manger is way over the top. At that point both cheeks have been slapped, and people should expect Christians to be angry (especially those who have no problem with Muslim riots in other countries because someone burned a book here).

 

 

Interesting, since I've been told, by more CM Christians than I can count, that it's just their beliefs so they have every right to express them and I can't be offended. I, of course, told them that was nonsense and they started crying about being persecuted.

Everyone in the US has a right to express their beliefs ~ and everyone has a right to be offended. The way our constitution is written, it's more like we're guaranteed to be offended.

That being said, no Christian has any knowledge of who is going to heaven or hell, nor are Christians supposed to judge. I do see a difference between "You're going to hell" as a casual observation or a rebuttal in any debate, and someone saying that they believe what the Bible says, or stating that the Bible says those who don't accept Christ will go to hell. That is just a statement that is factual as far as what is written in the Bible. Christians are supposed to reach out to others, not whack people over the head with their belief or drive people away by being offensive.

People are going to believe what they believe. I don't see anything offensive about offering a discussion ~ but if it is refused quit pushing. There is no reason to be hateful or act like one has some sort of moral authority over others ~ and any Christian who has actually read their Bible knows that (or should).

I understand people can react badly sometimes. I also understand that there are people who insist on acting badly consistently. Sometimes I'm no better ... particularly when someone lumps me in with bashers without ever having a conversation with me, or immediately goes to 'yeah, you and your invisible friend ... or keep it in your church and shut up', that sort of thing.

My problem with all the Christmas issues is that it's my favorite holiday, from both a religious and a secular standpoint. The constant fighting and anger takes something away. I just think people should be allowed to enjoy whatever part/all of it regardless of how the neighbors or the guy across town does things.

 I usually separate out the idea of personal offense from Constitutional offense.

I don't get offended by creches on courthouses on a personal level.  I have a beautiful gold plated creche ornament on my Christmas tree.  I do, however, see Constitutional offense of a creche on a courthouse lawn.

I too love Christmas.  I decorate BIG (my husband is Catholic, as is his whole family), we have family celebrations, my daughter has already put Christmas music on non-stop, we are putting lights up this weekend....there is nothing that can dampen my enjoyment of this holiday, even though I celebrate it in all its American secular glory.

There is so much room and space to enjoy Christmas without bringing it to governmental public places, that when people insist we should keep doing so because we have for a long time, or for tradition, or because Christians pay for those spaces too, I can't help but think why does it mean so much to someone to have religious displays on governmental public lands, there has to be a reason to "add" that to the overwhelming displays that are everywhere else. 

And the reason religious people want those things there, specifically there, is the same reason the First Amendment gets offended by those things there, IMO of course.

And I agree with Friday that it's nice to debate civilly.  :-)

Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Nov. 17, 2012 at 12:37 PM
Quoting Farmlady09:

the right to choose a religion is still a right, and no one else should have any right to make fun of them for it

I don't see that the second follows from the first.

People have a right to choose a political party to support, but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to make fun of them if they choose support the American Third Position Party.

Jers.
by on Nov. 25, 2012 at 1:51 PM

shannonnigans
by Silver Member on Nov. 25, 2012 at 2:03 PM
I'm going to Hades.


Quoting ashellbell:

I'm going to hell in every religion. I'm alright with it.

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
shannonnigans
by Silver Member on Nov. 25, 2012 at 2:13 PM
1 mom liked this
Returning to the original topic, what can O'Reilly seriously be thinking? That he is scaring atheists? Of course not, and he knows it. It's merely another attempt to rile up Christian hostility against atheists. And even then, it's for political purposes rather than the fact that O'Reilly has such strong religious convictions. Multi-level phony.
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