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News & Politics News & Politics

20 Obvious Truths That Will Shock Liberals

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1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.


2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.


3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.


4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.


6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.


7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.


8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.


9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.


10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.


11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.


12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.


13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

by on Nov. 17, 2012 at 7:46 PM
Replies (141-150):
imamomzilla
by on Nov. 19, 2012 at 8:29 PM

*anxiously waits for Carpy to shred.*

popcorn

Carpy
by Platinum Member on Nov. 19, 2012 at 9:46 PM

Sure, but I would rather like to discuss to influence of Adam Smith, after all Paine was an anti tax revolutionary.  Not much to the progressives liking.  He was a master of the use of rhetoric to inspire resentment of the Crown, but his ideas were not really his own. 

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care





Carpy
by Platinum Member on Nov. 19, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Just to add, you do know Thomas Paine wasn't actually a founder?

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care





blues_pagan
by on Nov. 19, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Thomas Paine did not sign the Declaration of Independence but he did help to spur the soldiers on in their fight with his pamphlet, "The Crisis".  He also helped to spur the idea of independence from Britian when he wrote his pamphlet, "Common Sense", around 1775 or 1776.

As for taxes, you should read "Agrarian Justice", which Paine wrote.  He addresses the need for estate tax and taxes on land values.  He submitted this idea in order to help the poor, whom he said are only poor due to civilization (civilized societies breed the poor).  Portions of these taxes would also go to the elderly and disabled.  

He was very liberal and progressive in his ideas of where this country should go.  And in many minds he is considered a founding father, though a lost one.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy_America/TPaine_FoundingFather.html

Quoting Carpy:

Just to add, you do know Thomas Paine wasn't actually a founder?

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care






blues_pagan
by on Nov. 19, 2012 at 10:07 PM

Or we could talk about Thomas Jefferson who many call a classical liberal.  Maybe Ben Franklin who is more of a Libertarian.  

Not all of the Founding Fathers were devout conservatives or even Christians for that matter (another misconception).

Quoting Carpy:

Sure, but I would rather like to discuss to influence of Adam Smith, after all Paine was an anti tax revolutionary.  Not much to the progressives liking.  He was a master of the use of rhetoric to inspire resentment of the Crown, but his ideas were not really his own. 

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care






Carpy
by Platinum Member on Nov. 19, 2012 at 10:21 PM

Just let me know what you want to know.  Jefferson is my favorite.  I have an entire collection of books and documentaries on him, that I have read and watched multiple times.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Or we could talk about Thomas Jefferson who many call a classical liberal.  Maybe Ben Franklin who is more of a Libertarian.  

Not all of the Founding Fathers were devout conservatives or even Christians for that matter (another misconception).

Quoting Carpy:

Sure, but I would rather like to discuss to influence of Adam Smith, after all Paine was an anti tax revolutionary.  Not much to the progressives liking.  He was a master of the use of rhetoric to inspire resentment of the Crown, but his ideas were not really his own. 

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care







Carpy
by Platinum Member on Nov. 19, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Paine was a propagandist.  I find Some of Alexander Hamilton's thoughts much more applicable.  "Accumulation of debt is perhaps the natural disease of all Governments.  And it is not easy to conceive anything more likely than this to lead to great and convulsive revolutions of empire".  Alexander Hamilton

The creation of debt should always be accompanied with the means of extinguishment"  Alexander Hamilton

And Thomas jefferson would fall solidly into todays "party of NO".

Jefferson was quoted as saying "Trading future prosperity for short term gain is essentially theft".  Jefferson wanted a balanced budget amendment that would "take from the federal government the power of borrowing".  Classic liberal, yes.  Progressive?  Absolutely NOT.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Thomas Paine did not sign the Declaration of Independence but he did help to spur the soldiers on in their fight with his pamphlet, "The Crisis".  He also helped to spur the idea of independence from Britian when he wrote his pamphlet, "Common Sense", around 1775 or 1776.

As for taxes, you should read "Agrarian Justice", which Paine wrote.  He addresses the need for estate tax and taxes on land values.  He submitted this idea in order to help the poor, whom he said are only poor due to civilization (civilized societies breed the poor).  Portions of these taxes would also go to the elderly and disabled.  

He was very liberal and progressive in his ideas of where this country should go.  And in many minds he is considered a founding father, though a lost one.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy_America/TPaine_FoundingFather.html

Quoting Carpy:

Just to add, you do know Thomas Paine wasn't actually a founder?

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care







blues_pagan
by on Nov. 19, 2012 at 10:56 PM

Paine was much more than a propagandist.  He was a Revolutionary who had many brilliant ideas.  He was the voice of the common man which in my mind sticks out above those who led or fought the war at the time.  He was the voice that Britian heard as their troops were being beaten back by peasants with pitch forks.  He weakened their resolve with his words.  

As for Alexander Hamilton, I agree with his views on debt.  I also agree with his views on the General Welfare, which was that no favortism be shown to one group over another.  


And Thomas Jefferson is also a favorite of mine, mainly due to his stance on the wall of seperation.  I also liked his fiscal policies though I doubt they would work in today's society.


Quoting Carpy:

Paine was a propagandist.  I find Some of Alexander Hamilton's thoughts much more applicable.  "Accumulation of debt is perhaps the natural disease of all Governments.  And it is not easy to conceive anything more likely than this to lead to great and convulsive revolutions of empire".  Alexander Hamilton

The creation of debt should always be accompanied with the means of extinguishment"  Alexander Hamilton

And Thomas jefferson would fall solidly into todays "party of NO".

Jefferson was quoted as saying "Trading future prosperity for short term gain is essentially theft".  Jefferson wanted a balanced budget amendment that would "take from the federal government the power of borrowing".  Classic liberal, yes.  Progressive?  Absolutely NOT.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Thomas Paine did not sign the Declaration of Independence but he did help to spur the soldiers on in their fight with his pamphlet, "The Crisis".  He also helped to spur the idea of independence from Britian when he wrote his pamphlet, "Common Sense", around 1775 or 1776.

As for taxes, you should read "Agrarian Justice", which Paine wrote.  He addresses the need for estate tax and taxes on land values.  He submitted this idea in order to help the poor, whom he said are only poor due to civilization (civilized societies breed the poor).  Portions of these taxes would also go to the elderly and disabled.  

He was very liberal and progressive in his ideas of where this country should go.  And in many minds he is considered a founding father, though a lost one.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy_America/TPaine_FoundingFather.html

Quoting Carpy:

Just to add, you do know Thomas Paine wasn't actually a founder?

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care








Carpy
by Platinum Member on Nov. 19, 2012 at 11:12 PM

Paine was certainly a revolutionary, but his "brilliant" ideas were not really his.  He was called "a corset maker by trade, a journalist by profession and a propagandist by inclination".  His ideas were ones that were already commonly in use among the "elite" of the day, members of congress, etc..( before you jump on that one, I am referencing the CONTINENTAL Congress) all Paine did was put them into book form for the commoners.  The revolution was already under way when Common Sense was published.  But I will agree he certainly riled up the masses.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Paine was much more than a propagandist.  He was a Revolutionary who had many brilliant ideas.  He was the voice of the common man which in my mind sticks out above those who led or fought the war at the time.  He was the voice that Britian heard as their troops were being beaten back by peasants with pitch forks.  He weakened their resolve with his words.  

As for Alexander Hamilton, I agree with his views on debt.  I also agree with his views on the General Welfare, which was that no favortism be shown to one group over another.  


And Thomas Jefferson is also a favorite of mine, mainly due to his stance on the wall of seperation.  I also liked his fiscal policies though I doubt they would work in today's society.


Quoting Carpy:

Paine was a propagandist.  I find Some of Alexander Hamilton's thoughts much more applicable.  "Accumulation of debt is perhaps the natural disease of all Governments.  And it is not easy to conceive anything more likely than this to lead to great and convulsive revolutions of empire".  Alexander Hamilton

The creation of debt should always be accompanied with the means of extinguishment"  Alexander Hamilton

And Thomas jefferson would fall solidly into todays "party of NO".

Jefferson was quoted as saying "Trading future prosperity for short term gain is essentially theft".  Jefferson wanted a balanced budget amendment that would "take from the federal government the power of borrowing".  Classic liberal, yes.  Progressive?  Absolutely NOT.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Thomas Paine did not sign the Declaration of Independence but he did help to spur the soldiers on in their fight with his pamphlet, "The Crisis".  He also helped to spur the idea of independence from Britian when he wrote his pamphlet, "Common Sense", around 1775 or 1776.

As for taxes, you should read "Agrarian Justice", which Paine wrote.  He addresses the need for estate tax and taxes on land values.  He submitted this idea in order to help the poor, whom he said are only poor due to civilization (civilized societies breed the poor).  Portions of these taxes would also go to the elderly and disabled.  

He was very liberal and progressive in his ideas of where this country should go.  And in many minds he is considered a founding father, though a lost one.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy_America/TPaine_FoundingFather.html

Quoting Carpy:

Just to add, you do know Thomas Paine wasn't actually a founder?

Quoting blues_pagan:

Want to talk Thomas Paine?

Quoting Carpy:

Which founder would you like to discuss first?
Quoting fallnangel3:

Thank you for proving my point that everyone thinks liberals are wrong. Read you history on the founding fathers how they were called liberals, who is fighting higher taxes for the rich, how high our tax rates have been, when we started borrowing money, and just about every other thing to do with this country. You'll see how the comments you made aren't the truth, and how you are wrong in several

Quoting Carpy:


Quoting fallnangel3:


Quoting imamomzilla:

 



 










1) The Founding Fathers were generally religious, gun-toting small government fanatics who were so far to the Right that they'd make Ann Coulter look like Jimmy Carter.

Actually they were the librals of their day.  Very progressive in their wanting to break away from England and the kind.  Most were dietists, we don't have the exact numbers of who was what religion because in the 1700s it didn't matter as it does today.  Yes people had guns back then, just as they have guns now.  The majority of liberals now own guns too.

The liberals of their day, yes.  But the meaning hasn't changed, it has just been hijacked by progressives.  Most were Christians.




2) The greatest evil this country has ever committed isn't slavery; it's killing more than 50 million innocent children via abortion.

This is an opinion not a fact.  There for it should not be listed in fact list




3) Conservatives are much more compassionate than liberals and all you have to do to prove it is look at all the studies showing that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals do.

Today's conservatives are also the richest people in the country.  Since they have higher incomes they have more disposable income that they can do something with.  They can write off donations for anything including their tithes to their church which allows them to pay less in taxes.  I would love to see a study done on if they give money away because it is less expensive to do than paying taxes on their income or if they are truly compassionate.  IF they were so compassionate then we wouldn't be having the down with food stamps, welfare, ect cries that we have now.

That's funny, I thought it was liberals who were the richest and so willing to give more in taxes, to boot.




4) When the Founding Fathers were actually around, there were official state religions and the Bible was used as a textbook in schools. The so-called "wall of separation between church and state" has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with liberal hostility to Christianity.



This is completely false.  You only need to look up the quotes from the founding fathers to know that they believed that religion had no place in politics

Actually, they believed the feds had no business overstepping on the states rights to sanction religion.


5) The biggest problem with our economy today is Barack Obama. His demonization of successful people, his driving up gas prices, his regulatory overload and threats to increase taxes have terrified businesses into hunkering down, refusing to spend money, and declining to hire new people. Replacing him would do more than any government policy to spur economic growth.

Back when the rich were paying 85% of their income into taxes they could get tax breaks by reinvesting their earnings back into their companies.  Our economy boomed under these conditions, and jobs paid livable wages.  Its only been in the last few decades that this less taxes equals more jobs ideology has been embraced by the right

This is just laughable.




6) Not only are conservatives more patriotic than liberals, but most American liberals "love" America in about the same way that a wife-beater loves his wife.

This opinion is so off that it doesn't even deserve to be argued against

I would agree if they used the term progressive and quite demonizing liberals.




7) Out of every 100 cries of “Racism” you hear these days, 99 are motivated by nothing other than politics.

And exactly what study proves this?  I again call opinion on a "fact list"




8) Anyone paying income taxes is certainly paying his “fair share" -- and then some -- compared to the people who pay.nothing.

Over half of Americans pay nothing or very little in taxes.  They pay taxes out of their checks then get a refund every year.  Part of the huge refund problem is due to the increase in the child tax credit, you can look up if it was a liberal or conservative who implemented that




9) You don't have a "right" to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You're correct.  Which means we all need to stop driving on roads that were here before we could drive, schools that were built before we were born, police, fire, military protection, and every other socialist program that our government has paid for with our tax money

Leave it to a progressive to use the worn schools and roads and police argument.




10) If we can ask people to present an ID to buy alcohol, drive a car, or get on an airplane, then asking them to present identification to vote is a no-brainer.

This one I actually agree with.  But presenting 1 ID is different than having to present 2, 3, 4 that some of the voter ID laws said that you needed.  Also we need to give people time to get them, not pass the law for it right before the election




11) There's absolutely nothing that the government does smarter, better, or more efficiently than the private market with roughly equivalent resources.

Except for keeping and creating jobs in the United States that are at a livable wage 

Get the government out of the way.




12) The biggest problem with education in this country is liberals. They fight vouchers, oppose merit pay, refuse to get rid of terrible teachers, and bend over backwards to keep poor kids trapped in failing schools.

Actually the worst thing to happen to education is No Child Left Behind and the amount of funding that has been cut to schools due to tax cuts.  Again look to see if that was a liberal or conservative

The worst thing is the dept of education, which most democrats disagreed with at its creation.




13) Fascism, socialism, and communism are all left-wing movements that have considerably more in common with modern liberalism than modern conservatism.

ya not true in the least

No it would be progressivism, not liberalism.  Again, quit demonizing liberals.



14) The Democratic Party was behind slavery, the KKK, and Jim Crow laws. It was also the party of Margaret Sanger, George Wallace, and Bull Connor. It has ALWAYS been a racist party. Even today, white liberals support Affirmative Action and racial set-asides because they still believe black Americans are too inferior to go up against whites on an even playing field.

Actually we support Affirmative Action because of the amount of old white racists that are still in this country controlling corporations that wont hire someone who is different.  Also so people who grew up in areas with poor schools have a shot at college

BS



15) A man with good morals who falls short and becomes a hypocrite is still a far better man than a liberal who can never be called a hypocrite because he has no morals at all.

At least I know what my morals are and refuse to vote biased on pushing them on others who don't agree with them



16) The most dire threat to America’s future and prosperity in the last 150 years hasn’t been the Nazis, the Soviets, or Al-Qaeda;, it’s the spending and overreach of our own government.

Exactly.  But yet when 9/11 happened conservatives wanted the Patriot Act passed that took away our rights, they want us to be the police of the world, they want the government out of our lives except when it comes to the issues that they deem wrong, and so many other hypocritical things



17) Greed isn’t someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it’s people demanding a greater share of money that someone else earns.

Greed is someone refusing to give their employees a raise, health care, sick days, vacation time, or full time status because it would cut into their $100,000/month salary

Many can not afford it.  You seem to think all business is huge corps.



18) Most of the time in American politics, the liberal “victim” is really a bad guy who is absolutely delighted by the opportunity to pretend to be “offended.”

I don't pretend to be offended.  I truly am offended by the Christian Right and their refusal to look at facts while suppressing groups of people they see as against the bible



19) Jesus Christ was not a conservative, a liberal, or a politician. He was also not a capitalist or a socialist. Still, you can say this: Jesus drew sharp lines about what’s right and wrong, He wasn’t tolerant of what the Bible categorizes as sinful behavior, and there’s absolutely no question that He would adamantly oppose abortion and gay marriage.

Maybe, but we have seperation of church and state.  But if you are going to say this is your reason for wanting to ban abortion and gay marriage then you should be all of taking from the rich to support the poor.  For food stamps.  For everyone being equal.  And everything else that your bible teaches you he stood for.  If I remember correctly from my Catholic upbringing he even healed some sick and feed a bunch of people without charging them



20) When you demand that other people fund your sexual escapades by buying your contraception, your sex life becomes their business.

Actually contraception can be used to regulate cycles, and regularly is.  It is also used by married couples to make sure they don't have kids they can't afford. Plus since they would be paying their own premiums, for their own plan, you won't be paying anything for their choices about their health care









Simmeringhearts
by on Nov. 20, 2012 at 6:45 AM
1 mom liked this

I have no problem with paying taxes. I do have a problem with being punished. Our taxes do become the government's to do with what they decide. But, I still have a right to get pissed when they misuse the money and come back demanding more. Which is why we look for every possible way to reduce our tax liability because we are looking at the steep tax hikes.

The recession? Ok. Whatever. I won't go into any details because I don't need any pats on the back.

Quoting blues_pagan:

I won't throw social responsibility in your face.  As for the rest, congratulations.  You started your endeavor 10 years ago though, before the recession compounded many issues for younger Americans like myself.  

As for your charity work, I commend you on your donation amount.  And thank you for the Joplin donation, my mom lives there and was there when the tornado hit.  Goddess bless, they were not hit as hard as many others but they did lose 3 friends.  

Last, no, no one is entitled to that money.  But I will say that once you pay taxes that money is no longer yours, it is the governments to do with what they see fit.  Hopefully, President Obama and Congress will compromise so that they can save those who make $250,000 and below a year from steeply rising taxes come January.  

Quoting Simmeringhearts:

It is only impossible if you decide it is. I busted my ass the past 10 years to get my business built up to where it is. I started with only $25 a week when I was a widowed mother of 2. During the last 10 years, I was also a sing mom of 4. Not 1 penny from the government! Last year, my annual net profit was just over $200,000. I have already past that this year. And no one is entitled to any of that money, except for my family. We donate 25% of income to various charities. And donate 100 bars of soap a month to womens' shelters. And I volunteer my time on a weekly basis. When Joplin got hit, I sent 500 bars of soap. I also donate my crochet hats, booties and blankets (my down time activity) to the Childrens' Hospital in Iowa City. So, don't throw social responsibility in my face.

Quoting blues_pagan:

I would be 100% on board with your post here if only for one thing, the American dream of becoming rich (say in the top 2%) is no longer even viable as a dream.  It is literally impossible to climb the economic ladder with the way that things are today.  The rich have been rich for a long time and simply get richer.  The same goes for the poor, they were born poor and will stay poor.  

http://www.forbes.com/sites/augustturak/2012/07/02/is-the-american-dream-dead-the-four-inconvenient-truths-behind-income-inequality/

Quoting mom2twinboyz:

That's the thing! Liberals want everyone on the same playing field. That's fine and dandy but at what cost? Is it really fair to ask people who have been lucky enough and work hard enough to give up their money just because they are successful? That is not fair.
You lift people up in other ways not enabling them with a perpetual stream of money from the govt where they will have no will or desire to get employment. How about educating them instead? Now that is lifting them up.

Quoting MomTiara19:

6)Patriotism


I feel democrats are patriots for America because we believe in unity not division.We lift this country up by accepting who we are as diverse people and embracing one another to empowerment.By making sure we are all educated,healthy,and can live humanely.We give everyone the opportunity to grow and become wealthy with a level playing field.We are not beat down....we are innovative and thriving.The only thing beat down is ancient twisted extremist views that are becoming extinct and obsolete.


7)%60 of republicans I feel have stereotypical views....from subtle ...to outward hate and racism.Moderate republicans are continuously having to distance themselves from conservative extremists like Sinunu,Trump,and Limbaugh.Keep it coming because thats how democrats keep winning:)You turn independents and moderate republicans to the liberal wide side:)


8)If you are working....you pay taxes.


You do not pay for a poor person who is working and pays taxes too.Everyone who works pays taxes.Not everyone on welfare is not...not working or without a job....they are just poor and working.Under Romney you would have paid taxes too.Sorry but no-one can pick and choose to whom they want their tax dollars to go.


9)Yes everyone should do their fair share.That includes realizing that the rich not paying their fair share in taxes is wrong and has been going on now for 12 years!!


You can not hand pick and choose where your tax dollars go.America is not one big charity bank you can decide to donate to.Government is a system....and a system that works.I feel safe knowing that if another Sandy should occur I have Fema...not just what someone felt I needed but what useless.








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