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News & Politics News & Politics

Religion, Politics and 'Family Values'

Posted by on Nov. 30, 2012 at 8:04 PM
  • 30 Replies

A quote from a thread:

Whereas liberals celebrate subsidized birth control and the unmooring of what they see as narrow-minded religious moral standards, they fail to realize the alternative that is right in front of them: out-of-wedlock birth rates that are at all-time highs and a destructive breakdown in the family unit.


Over the last 50 years, what has been the actual change in the percentage of children reaching 18 having been raised for all 18 years in a stable 2 parent family environment?   (And by that I don't mean "1 man and 1 woman married in a church and never divorced".   I mean "2 parents, both a constant positive presence in the child's life.")   Stats please, rather than guesses or anecdotes.

Is the 'morality' or social expectation that places high value on a stable 2 parent family environment intrinsically religious rather than cultural?

What other factors might be contributing to this, such as increasing lifespans, geographic mobility or increasing financial pressure for both parents to have careers?

If there has been a significant deterioration, what factors and political policies do you think have been the most important?   Do you blame a particular political party for doing most of the damage?

by on Nov. 30, 2012 at 8:04 PM
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Replies (1-10):
Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Nov. 30, 2012 at 8:07 PM

Here's the best I can find:

but it isn't great, because it doesn't take into account how many of those are stable families, just not wed.

erika9009
by Silver Member on Nov. 30, 2012 at 8:10 PM
4 moms liked this

You see if they have more single moms on some government assistance, the Dems get more control over these people.  In turn, that increases their power.  It's their endgame so to speak. (I have to stop watching spy movies)

29again
by Gold Member on Nov. 30, 2012 at 11:23 PM

All I have is anecdotal evidence.  Such as when I was in high school, there was one girl who was pregnant, and she was married and it was still rather shocking to the rest of the school.  She was the ONLY pregnant student.  My senior year, there was another girl who was pregnant, and she was almost ostracized.  She was really treated badly by the other students.  Fast forward 15 years, and there were over a dozen students pregnant at graduation, at the same small school (grad class of just over 100 compared to 80 in my class....) 

Society has accepted single, unwed mothers as normal, and the government is there with a "helping" hand.  Look at how much is given to our single mothers these days -- section 8/housing, food, medical care, child care, help with car repairs, phones, secondary education, and I really don't know what else, but this much alone is enough that I can see where these women are not encouraged to get off the system.  They have a good life, with their basic needs met, and if they should earn a little bit of money, chances are it isn't enough to get them anywhere.  They can play at trying to better themselves, and some of them do, but not enough that these programs are fundamentally beneficial to society as a whole, imo. 

To address religion, well, ever since they took God out of school, things have gone downhill, imo.  It is hard for mere parents to compete with "Teacher!"  Teacher is always right, no matter what.  Parents are told that they are the most important part of their childs education, yet parents are ignored and pushed aside at the schools.  Parents have no input whatsoever as to what their children are taught, and the only option is to change schools, and hope that the new one is better suited to your values.  The lucky ones can go the private school route, but that comes with no guarantees, either.   I believe that schools today are little more than indoctrination camps, and parents have to deprogram their children every single night!  Working parents don't always have that kind of time.  However, I think that if there were to be some sort of expression of religion, not necessarily teaching from Bible/Koran/Torah/etc, but the simple acknowledgement of a higher power (as they say today) would go far.  Students spend more time with their teacher than they do with any other adult in a week's time.  The teacher is more constant, and therefore more authoritative, in a student's life.  And if the teacher cannot reference any sort of religious belief, a couple of hours of church and/or Sunday school a week is not going to get through.

I'm not sure if this answers your questions, but this is the best I can do.  I have no idea where to even begin to look for studies and graphs on this topic.  And I don't know enough about history of politics to make a definite statement as to who is to blame.  Although, I would start with whoever began the "war on poverty" and implemented the social safety net programs.  I would also include Pres Carter and Clinton, with the CRA.  That is as specific as I can get there.


Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:13 AM
Quoting 29again:

I think that if there were to be some sort of expression of religion, not necessarily teaching from Bible/Koran/Torah/etc, but the simple acknowledgement of a higher power (as they say today) would go far.  Students spend more time with their teacher than they do with any other adult in a week's time.  The teacher is more constant, and therefore more authoritative, in a student's life.  And if the teacher cannot reference any sort of religious belief, a couple of hours of church and/or Sunday school a week is not going to get through.

If that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see a difference for the stats for children from families of denominations like the Catholic church, who are well known for strong indoctrination of children?

Pema_Jampa
by 2HotTacoTini on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:15 AM

Why marry when the divorce rate is so high? No reason to marry some guy you just started dating and you are a virgin. People do it differently nowadays. I say try for shoes on before you buy and make sure you are protected when doing so. 

_Kissy_
by on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:21 AM
1 mom liked this

I am as Liberal as it gets and I have more "Family Values" than a lot of conservatives I have encountered and I'm not even remotely religious. I was married 2 years before we decided to ever considered thinking about a baby. We made sure our affairs were in order and our savings and retirement were in place. We've been together 16 years and married 15.

I dont see how these people can even compare any 2 people together. 

They need to get some business of their own.


Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:24 AM
Quoting Pema_Jampa:

Why marry when the divorce rate is so high?

Here are some stats on that...

(source)

It is true that the longer a couple is married the lower their odds of divorce. Figure 3 shows a visual depiction of how the odds of divorce decline over time. The first 3 years of marriage require many adjustments for newlyweds. Of particular mention is the process of transitioning into a cohesive couple relationship with negotiated financial, sexual, social, emotional, intellectual, physical, and spiritual rules of engagement. Most couples have many of these negotiations in place by years 7-10. Anyone can divorce at any time in a marriage. Since longevity is often associated with the arrival of children, accumulation of wealth, establishment of acceptable social status (being married is still highly regarded as a status), and the buffering of many of life's daily stressors; the average couple finds it difficult and too costly to divorce, even though some features of the marriage are less than desirable (see Levinger's Model below).

Figure 3. Estimated Odds of Marriage Lasting Based on Number of Years Married

Estimated odds from data and tables. Retrieved from www.census.gov. 15 September 2009. Various Tables and Editions of Statistical Abstracts

29again
by Gold Member on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:26 AM


Quoting Clairwil:

Quoting 29again:

I think that if there were to be some sort of expression of religion, not necessarily teaching from Bible/Koran/Torah/etc, but the simple acknowledgement of a higher power (as they say today) would go far.  Students spend more time with their teacher than they do with any other adult in a week's time.  The teacher is more constant, and therefore more authoritative, in a student's life.  And if the teacher cannot reference any sort of religious belief, a couple of hours of church and/or Sunday school a week is not going to get through.

If that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see a difference for the stats for children from families of denominations like the Catholic church, who are well known for strong indoctrination of children?

If I truly believed that the Catholic church strongly indoctrinated children, possibly.  I just don't believe that any Christian church indoctrinates children these days.  Whatever headway the Church may make on Sunday morning is gone by Monday afternoon.

Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:26 AM

(source)

Effect of Baby Boomers on the Divorce Rate

We'll discuss these trends in divorce rates below, but first we must define cohort. A Cohort is a group of people who have some demographic characteristic, typically associated with their birth year or group of birth years. The Baby Boom is a cohort of those born between 1946 and 1964 and represents a never-before and never-after repeated high period of birth rates that yielded about 70 million living Baby Boomers today (i.e., people born 1946-1964).

There are few different rates for measuring divorce. The most common divorce rate used by the U.S. Census Bureau is the number of divorces/1,000 population. Another divorce rate is the number of divorces/1,000 married women. Look at Figure 1 below to see the United States marriage and divorce rates/1,000 population from 1900 to 2006.

Figure 1. United States Marriage and Divorce Rates per 1,000 Population 1900-2006

Retrieved from www.census.gov. 9 September 2009. Various Tables and Editions of Statistical Abstracts

Notice that divorce rates have always been much lower than marriage rates in the U.S. Also notice that marriage and divorce rates moved in very similar directions over the last century. A slight rise is visible for both after WWI and WWII ended (1919 and 1946). A slight decline is visible during the Depression (1930s) and the turbulent 1960s. Most importantly, notice that both marriage and divorce rates have been declining in the 1990s and 2000s. Younger people today wait to marry until their late twenties (Delayed Marriage), while other family forms such as single parenting, cohabiting, and three-generational families have increased in the U.S.

Figure 1 also shows the trends in ratio of divorces to marriages for the U.S. In 1900 there was 1 divorce per 13 marriages that year or 1:13, in 1930 1:6, in 1950 1:4, in 1970 1:3, 1980 1:2, 1990 1:2, and 2006 1:2. Today, that means that every year there are 2 state-sanctioned legal marriages to every 1 state-sanctioned legal dissolution of a marriage. One plus two equals three. For the 12 months in 2008 there was a marriage rate of 7.1 marriages for every 1,000 population and a divorce rate of 3.5 divorces for every 1,000 population. As mentioned above, that translates to over 2.1 million marriages and about 1 million divorces in 2008.

Every year only 1 in 3 legal status changes is a marriage ending in a divorce. The other 2 legal status changes end in marriage. It is a commonly stated myth that 1 in 2 marriages ends in divorce. That myth is not true according to the ratios we just considered nor the divorces per 1,000 population over the last 100 years in the U.S. Only 10 percent of the population is currently divorced, and of all the adults many have never experienced divorce. The oldest U.S. age category considered by the U.S. Census Bureau had the highest stats, with 40 percent of men and women ages 50 and over who'd ever had a divorce (Number, Timing, and Duration of Marriages and Divorces: 2001, Feb. 2005 P70-97 retrieved 11 September 2009 from http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p70-97.pdf).

The National center for Health Statistics reported May 24, 2001, that 43 percent of current marriages break up within the first 15 years of marriage (see http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/01news/firstmarr.htm). That was in 2001 and not today. It was the highest official scientifically based divorce risks estimate given, and still it was a full 7 percentage points shy of the 50/50 figure carelessly thrown around in the media and classrooms.

Figure 2 shows a more detailed description of U.S. divorce rates since 1940 and some of the factors that contributed to them. As you already noticed in Figure 1, divorce rates were relatively low prior to 1940. But, in the 1940s WWII was ongoing and divorce rates moved upward, with a one-year spike in 1946. As a reminder, keep in mind that 1946 was the United States' most unusual year for family-related rates. Divorce rates, marriage rates, birth rates and remarriage rates surged during this year while couples married at their lowest median age in U.S. history. Remember that the Baby Boom began in 1946.

Figure 2. United States Divorce Rates per 1,000 Population 1900-2006

Retrieved from www.census.gov. 9 September 2009. Various Tables and Editions of Statistical Abstracts

After 1946, divorce rates fell to steady low levels and remained there until the 1960s, when they slowly began to rise. The Baby Boomers directly and indirectly influenced the rise of divorce rates. In 1964 the first group of Baby Boomers turned 18 and entered the U.S.'s 18-24 prime marriage market years. For the next two decades Baby Boomers added about 4 million men and women to the marriage market each year. Thus, Baby Boomers raised the numbers of married people and thereby the numbers at risk of divorcing.

Directly, Baby Boomers contributed to the divorce rate. Baby Boomers and those immediately preceding them (born 1936-1945) have very high rates of divorce. Table 1 shows that the experience of ever having divorced is not directly related to age. In other words, the oldest members of society have NOT divorced the most. In fact, it is the Baby Boomers and Pre-Baby Boomers who divorced the most, followed by the oldest and then the younger cohorts. The up arrow symbol in Table 1 signifies the highest rate of divorce ever, which is found among women and men of the cohort 50-59 years (these are Baby Boomers born 1946-1955). The highest rate of currently divorced people is also found among the women and men of the 50-59 cohort. The Baby Boomers 1946-1955 still hold the highest divorce rates of any cohort in U.S. history. Their unprecedented high divorce rates raised the overall divorce rates for the entire nation and contributed in part to the myth of half of all marriages ending in divorce.

Clairwil
by Platinum Member on Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:32 AM
Quoting 29again:
Quoting Clairwil:
Quoting 29again:

I think that if there were to be some sort of expression of religion, not necessarily teaching from Bible/Koran/Torah/etc, but the simple acknowledgement of a higher power (as they say today) would go far.  Students spend more time with their teacher than they do with any other adult in a week's time.  The teacher is more constant, and therefore more authoritative, in a student's life.  And if the teacher cannot reference any sort of religious belief, a couple of hours of church and/or Sunday school a week is not going to get through.

If that were the case, wouldn't you expect to see a difference for the stats for children from families of denominations like the Catholic church, who are well known for strong indoctrination of children?

If I truly believed that the Catholic church strongly indoctrinated children, possibly.  I just don't believe that any Christian church indoctrinates children these days.  Whatever headway the Church may make on Sunday morning is gone by Monday afternoon.

I couldn't find a break down by denomination, but these two looked interesting:



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