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Mommy don't we love America?

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Mommy, don't we love America?

Kids puzzled when school pledge rebuffs Mom and Dad.

By most standards, Lisa and John are model citizens. He's a veteran, they are both college grads, and they've been married for over ten years. Both have good jobs, John in high-tech and Lisa in the medical field. They live in the Boston suburbs, send their kids to public school, and spend most of their waking hours juggling busy schedules involving work, school, and the kids' activities.

Religious affirmations in school can discriminate against nonbelieving families, contributing to prejudice against them.

Nevertheless, in the eyes of some, there is reason to question the patriotism of Lisa and John. Their flaw, it seems, is that they don't conform to official government doctrine on the existence of a divinity. "Our six-year-old daughter came home from first grade very confused," Lisa explains. "In school she was taught to stand up each morning and declare that we are a nation under God, but she knows that mommy and daddy don't believe in any gods. She wanted to know, why does the school say there's a God when mommy and daddy say there isn't?"


Lisa and John, who both consider themselves Humanists, explained to their daughter that not all Americans believe in divinities, and that the "under God" wording was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by people who thought it was important. Trying not to overwhelm the small child with too much information, they simply explained that people who don't believe in God should not have their patriotism questioned.

Of course, Lisa and John are right. The Constitution guarantees religiousfreedom, including the right to not believe, as well as the separation of church and state. The Constitution also forbids religious tests for public office, making it clear that religiosity and good citizenship are unrelated concepts.

"She's a confident little girl and she knows that we are good citizens," John explains. "But she takes words seriously, and she was obviously troubled by the fact that the school was saying one thing and her parentswere saying another."

Lisa and John feel that they gave their daughter the assurances she needs, but they nevertheless resent that, on a daily basis in school, she must confront a religious truth claim that contradicts their family's beliefs. "Why should my child go to school every day to be told by the school, in an official flag-salute ceremony with teachers and classmates, that the religious views we've been teaching her are wrong?" John asks. "We teach her good values, right from wrong. She's a good girl, and her family's religion shouldn't be disparaged by her school."

Lisa expresses concern that the "under God" wording strongly implies that nonbelievers are less patriotic than those who believe. "This is a patriotic exercise, let's be clear about that," she says. "So if this official patriotic ceremony, conducted every day with hand over heart, declares that our country is under God, then obviously the inference is that true patriots must believe in God. That's always made me uneasy, but now that my kids are getting to school age it really worries me."

And John and Lisa are not alone. From sea to shining sea, secular Americans who love their country find themselves dealing with the problem of governmental religiosity in an age when religious activists are politically engaged, well funded, and ready to assert their agenda on such issues. As such, anyone who questions governmental God-talk immediately becomes a participant in the culture wars.

The problem, says Ron, a father of two from California, is that many Americans are oblivious to history. "A lot of people think the Pledge was written by the Founding Fathers," he says, when in fact it was actually written about a century later, in 1892, for a children's magazine. That original Pledge had no religious language, as it promised allegiance to "one nation indivisible." Though it proved catchy and was eventually utilized widely by schools, it remained secular until the "under God" wording was added in 1954 at the height of the McCarthy era, after much lobbying by the Knights of Columbus and other religious groups.

Around the same time that "under God" was added to the official federal version of the Pledge, religious lobbyists succeeded in convincing Congress to make "In God We Trust" the national motto. Again, Ron says many Americans are unaware that this religious motto was adopted only as recently as the 1950s.

"The real motto of this country, from the days of the Founders, was E Pluribus Unum," he says, referring to the Latin motto (meaning "Out of many, one") found on the Great Seal of the United States, which dates back to 1782. Ron and others point to what they feel is the beauty of E Pluribus Unum, in that it exemplifies the federal structure of the country (out of many states, one nation) and the pluralistic, melting-pot nature of the American population (out of many peoples, one American people).

Thus, secular parents like John, Lisa, and Ron teach their kids that America's sharp turn toward public religiosity actually contradicts traditional American values. Religious conservatives can cherry pick examples of the Founders making religious references, of course, but such arguments ignore the fact that the Founders did not have a religious pledge, a religious national motto, or for that matter an official annual National Day of Prayer. To be sure, practical politics in the 18th century required a certain level of respect be paid to religion, but what's most remarkable about the Founders is not their religiosity, but their secularism. Many Founders, such as Thomas Jefferson, considered themselves Deists and rejected outright the notion of revelation-based religion.

Some have argued that secular families and children should simply stop complaining, that they should learn to accept official governmentalbias against their religious views. If the Pledge wording really bothers you, these people argue, then don't participate in the flag-salute ceremony each day. (The Supreme Court ruled in 1943, in a case involving a Jehovah's Witnesses child, that schools cannot force children to participate in the Pledge.) This argument assumes, however, that nonparticipation is an easy option, but numerous documented instances of harassment toward those who refuse to participate in patriotic exercises suggest otherwise. 

Even more importantly, secular families feel that the burden of resiliency should not rest with the child, who simply comes to school expecting to be treated as an equal, but with the government, which has a duty to treat all children equally. "My child doesn't want to sit out while the rest of her class says the Pledge," argues Melissa, an Illinois mother of a junior high student. "No kid likes to be the odd one, the one who's different. She wants to participate like everyone else, but she doesn't want the government criticizing our family's religious beliefs." 

Some secular parents are active in Humanist and atheist communities, whereas others simply have no group affiliation. Almost all of them, however, are more likely to spend Sunday morning in a museum than a church, and all must find ways of dealing with the religiosity that is regularly imposed on their kids. Though it comes in various forms, the most persistent problem seems to be the regular, often daily, recitation of the religious Pledge of Allegiance in schools.

These secular families address this issue in different ways, depending on numerous factors - their own willingness to be visible dissenters, the temperment of their child, the level of sympathy of teachers and administrators, the religious and patriotic climate in the school community, and other factors. Most atheist and Humanist children indeed participate in the Pledge, though many parents report that their kids discreetly remain silent while the words "under God" are spoken. (Melissa's daughter quietly, and cleverly, says "under law" instead.)

Most secular parents are not thrilled with such compromises, but realize that there are few better options. "By participating, even if you don't say 'under God,' you are validating the religious language, because nobody knows that you aren't saying the religious words," John says. "By standing and participating, you give the appearance of unanimity. It perpetuates the ridiculous idea that all patriotic people believe in God."

Regardless of how secular families deal with the issue, most wish they simply weren't forced to do so. They see the entire dilemma as being caused by overzealous religious conservatives and the politicians who are reluctant to stand up to them, fearful of doing the right thing to keep governmentout of the religion business and protect the rights of minorities.

To illustrate what it's like to have their religious views rejected on a daily basis by the schools, atheist and Humanist parents suggest imagining a hypothetical where the Pledge wording is changed to "one nation, under Jesus." There would be no question, of course, that such a Pledge would discriminate against Hindus, Jews, and Muslims. As such, atheist and Humanist parents argue, the "under God" wording is really no different. The assertion that a country is "under God" is, by definition, a specific religious truth claim, a claim that is believed by some and not others.

Since America is growing increasingly secular, especially among the younger generation, this is a problem that is unlikely to go away soon. But until it does, the goal of true indivisibility may remain elusive.

 

Note: All names were changed for this article.

See the original Pledge (pre-McCarthy) here:  Porky Pig Pledge

Join me on Facebook

Text copyright 2011 David Niose

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201102/mommy-dont-we-love-america

by on Jan. 9, 2013 at 11:46 AM
Replies (151-160):
paperorplastic
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 9:26 PM

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History

by Dr. John W. Baer

Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

 

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality(1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'



h0tp0t
by Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 9:28 PM
There are the intolerant and judgmental people on both sides, one person or incident doesn't define the populous.



You may need to move on from this little "event" to gain perspective. Perhaps talk it out with someone. You seem a little too tied to the specific details of one interaction.



Quoting broncfan:




Quoting h0tp0t:

It is not uncommon that a six year old may have formulated that idea without adult persuasion. The "I am better than you" attitude is very common at that age and can come from children with very positive/tolerant parents.




Quoting broncfan:



 




Quoting h0tp0t:

I don't think teaching a child a fundamental understanding of the sciences should be considered bad parenting.



Teaching tolerance and understanding of beliefs is where they missed the boat.



It isn't bad parenting to be an atheist.






Quoting broncfan:




This is exactly why we send our kids to private school, why we give up other things, why I work extra shifts to make the money.  I PICK the place that has so much influence on my kids for 7 hours a day, not depend on where somebody sitting at a desk decides to draw a line on a map for school districts. I want my kids to say the pledge, I want them to start their day with prayer and I want them to bless their food before eating.  I am willing to pay for my choices.






Kids are going to be mean to each other, about everything.  The worse my daughter was ever hurt by another child was when a child of 2 atheist parents told her (at gym class) that she (my dd) and us ( her parents) were stupid because we believed in some made up man in the sky and her parents believed in SCIENCE because they were smart.  Tell me who teaches a 6 year old this stuff?  Funny thing is, this child 10 years later, comes to youth group at our church is is now a believer in God. 







I did not say being atheist is being a bad parent, being a bad parent is when you teach a 6 year old that other people are stupid because they believe differently than you.





Ok, I guess that is why the child said "My Mom said you and your family are stupid, you believe in a pretend man in the sky, my Mom is smart she believes in science".  I will never forget those words, it hurt my 6 year olds feelings and I think about it every time I hear how "intolerant and judgemetal" Christians are.



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paperorplastic
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 9:39 PM
1 mom liked this

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.

Quoting paperorplastic:

Just out of curiosity, since you mention the author, didn't someon have to get permission to re-write the POA?  I haven't had time to research this part of it.

Quoting autodidact:

The words don't belong in there. how is your religion being belittled by the insertion of words against theauthor's wishes?

Quoting 3lilladies81:

I love how you reword things to cause strife.

Quoting autodidact:

So your religion is belittled if it's not allowed to force it's way into any authors work?


Quoting 3lilladies81:

How does saying or not saying "one nation under God" make someone patriotic or not? Not believing in God does NOT make you a bad person. I honestly can't imagine little kids making fun of someone for not saying it I doubt they would even notice. As far as older children again unless the chil makes a big issue out of no one will probably even notice. Adults should not tell a child they are bad for not believing what they believe it's idiotic (has this actually happened to you?) Taking "under God" out of it DOES belittle my religion. So my children come home an ask why did they take out under God from the pledge is that not going to effect them? Um YEA it will! So are you going to explain to my child why all of the sudden it is out of the pledge? How is it any different!? It's not!! We are Pentecostal so yea we know what it is like to be looked at as different.





Quoting mikiemom:

and what if you child came home confused because everyone said that in order to be a patriot she had to believe in Isis and that is she didn't believe she was a bad person? What if your child said it just to fit in? What if your child was bullied for not saying it? How would you feel if the other parents told you so what who gives two hoots about how your kid feels; or that your child should feel shame for believing in the christian god instead of Isis?



not saying under god in the pledge in no way belittles or downplays your childs faith but forcing a non-christian to say it does downplay that child's choice of belief. Why are you ok with doing that to a child. Would you want that done to your child?



Quoting 3lilladies81:

My child simply wouldn't say it.



Quoting mikiemom:



Not saying Under God doesn't take god away from your child - saying under God makes a child who doesn't believe say somethig they don't believe.




Please answer this question, if they were making your child pledge allegience to Odin or Thor or Isis or Ganeshe would you be ok with that?




Quoting 3lilladies81:

Why not y'all are taking God out of everything else. How about the act that it offends me that you want to take it out if the pledge?? so what your offense is better than mine?? Oh I guess because I'm a Christian I can never be offended because that would be "judgmental"












autodidact
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 9:46 PM
1 mom liked this

meh, that's only because when you're young you have no concept of how much there is TO know. : )

Quoting paperorplastic:

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.

Quoting paperorplastic:

Just out of curiosity, since you mention the author, didn't someon have to get permission to re-write the POA?  I haven't had time to research this part of it.

Quoting autodidact:

The words don't belong in there. how is your religion being belittled by the insertion of words against theauthor's wishes?

Quoting 3lilladies81:

I love how you reword things to cause strife.

Quoting autodidact:

So your religion is belittled if it's not allowed to force it's way into any authors work?


Quoting 3lilladies81:

How does saying or not saying "one nation under God" make someone patriotic or not? Not believing in God does NOT make you a bad person. I honestly can't imagine little kids making fun of someone for not saying it I doubt they would even notice. As far as older children again unless the chil makes a big issue out of no one will probably even notice. Adults should not tell a child they are bad for not believing what they believe it's idiotic (has this actually happened to you?) Taking "under God" out of it DOES belittle my religion. So my children come home an ask why did they take out under God from the pledge is that not going to effect them? Um YEA it will! So are you going to explain to my child why all of the sudden it is out of the pledge? How is it any different!? It's not!! We are Pentecostal so yea we know what it is like to be looked at as different.





Quoting mikiemom:

and what if you child came home confused because everyone said that in order to be a patriot she had to believe in Isis and that is she didn't believe she was a bad person? What if your child said it just to fit in? What if your child was bullied for not saying it? How would you feel if the other parents told you so what who gives two hoots about how your kid feels; or that your child should feel shame for believing in the christian god instead of Isis?



not saying under god in the pledge in no way belittles or downplays your childs faith but forcing a non-christian to say it does downplay that child's choice of belief. Why are you ok with doing that to a child. Would you want that done to your child?



Quoting 3lilladies81:

My child simply wouldn't say it.



Quoting mikiemom:



Not saying Under God doesn't take god away from your child - saying under God makes a child who doesn't believe say somethig they don't believe.




Please answer this question, if they were making your child pledge allegience to Odin or Thor or Isis or Ganeshe would you be ok with that?




Quoting 3lilladies81:

Why not y'all are taking God out of everything else. How about the act that it offends me that you want to take it out if the pledge?? so what your offense is better than mine?? Oh I guess because I'm a Christian I can never be offended because that would be "judgmental"
















paperorplastic
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 9:56 PM
1 mom liked this

Lol!  I guess that concept hit me when I turned 40 a few years ago.  Autodidact, I wish I were younger somedays in the fact that there was so much I wish I paid attention to in my education, and life experience.  Yes it molded me, but there seems to be a lot I missed.   

Quoting autodidact:

meh, that's only because when you're young you have no concept of how much there is TO know. : )

Quoting paperorplastic:

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.

Quoting paperorplastic:

Just out of curiosity, since you mention the author, didn't someon have to get permission to re-write the POA?  I haven't had time to research this part of it.

Quoting autodidact:

The words don't belong in there. how is your religion being belittled by the insertion of words against theauthor's wishes?

Quoting 3lilladies81:

I love how you reword things to cause strife.

Quoting autodidact:

So your religion is belittled if it's not allowed to force it's way into any authors work?


Quoting 3lilladies81:

How does saying or not saying "one nation under God" make someone patriotic or not? Not believing in God does NOT make you a bad person. I honestly can't imagine little kids making fun of someone for not saying it I doubt they would even notice. As far as older children again unless the chil makes a big issue out of no one will probably even notice. Adults should not tell a child they are bad for not believing what they believe it's idiotic (has this actually happened to you?) Taking "under God" out of it DOES belittle my religion. So my children come home an ask why did they take out under God from the pledge is that not going to effect them? Um YEA it will! So are you going to explain to my child why all of the sudden it is out of the pledge? How is it any different!? It's not!! We are Pentecostal so yea we know what it is like to be looked at as different.





Quoting mikiemom:

and what if you child came home confused because everyone said that in order to be a patriot she had to believe in Isis and that is she didn't believe she was a bad person? What if your child said it just to fit in? What if your child was bullied for not saying it? How would you feel if the other parents told you so what who gives two hoots about how your kid feels; or that your child should feel shame for believing in the christian god instead of Isis?



not saying under god in the pledge in no way belittles or downplays your childs faith but forcing a non-christian to say it does downplay that child's choice of belief. Why are you ok with doing that to a child. Would you want that done to your child?



Quoting 3lilladies81:

My child simply wouldn't say it.



Quoting mikiemom:



Not saying Under God doesn't take god away from your child - saying under God makes a child who doesn't believe say somethig they don't believe.




Please answer this question, if they were making your child pledge allegience to Odin or Thor or Isis or Ganeshe would you be ok with that?




Quoting 3lilladies81:

Why not y'all are taking God out of everything else. How about the act that it offends me that you want to take it out if the pledge?? so what your offense is better than mine?? Oh I guess because I'm a Christian I can never be offended because that would be "judgmental"














autodidact
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 10:04 PM
3 moms liked this

but we live in such an amazing time, you can carry around free courses from Oxford University in your pocket in a device not much larger than a credit card. have you ever checked out educational podcasts, or TED talks, or Khan academy? it's really exciting how many resources are just there for the taking. 

and yet, lol: 
 

Quoting paperorplastic:

Lol!  I guess that concept hit me when I turned 40 a few years ago.  Autodidact, I wish I were younger somedays in the fact that there was so much I wish I paid attention to in my education, and life experience.  Yes it molded me, but there seems to be a lot I missed.   

Quoting autodidact:

meh, that's only because when you're young you have no concept of how much there is TO know. : )

Quoting paperorplastic:

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.

Quoting paperorplastic:

Just out of curiosity, since you mention the author, didn't someon have to get permission to re-write the POA?  I haven't had time to research this part of it.

Quoting autodidact:

The words don't belong in there. how is your religion being belittled by the insertion of words against theauthor's wishes?

Quoting 3lilladies81:

I love how you reword things to cause strife.

Quoting autodidact:

So your religion is belittled if it's not allowed to force it's way into any authors work?


Quoting 3lilladies81:

How does saying or not saying "one nation under God" make someone patriotic or not? Not believing in God does NOT make you a bad person. I honestly can't imagine little kids making fun of someone for not saying it I doubt they would even notice. As far as older children again unless the chil makes a big issue out of no one will probably even notice. Adults should not tell a child they are bad for not believing what they believe it's idiotic (has this actually happened to you?) Taking "under God" out of it DOES belittle my religion. So my children come home an ask why did they take out under God from the pledge is that not going to effect them? Um YEA it will! So are you going to explain to my child why all of the sudden it is out of the pledge? How is it any different!? It's not!! We are Pentecostal so yea we know what it is like to be looked at as different.





Quoting mikiemom:

and what if you child came home confused because everyone said that in order to be a patriot she had to believe in Isis and that is she didn't believe she was a bad person? What if your child said it just to fit in? What if your child was bullied for not saying it? How would you feel if the other parents told you so what who gives two hoots about how your kid feels; or that your child should feel shame for believing in the christian god instead of Isis?



not saying under god in the pledge in no way belittles or downplays your childs faith but forcing a non-christian to say it does downplay that child's choice of belief. Why are you ok with doing that to a child. Would you want that done to your child?



Quoting 3lilladies81:

My child simply wouldn't say it.



Quoting mikiemom:



Not saying Under God doesn't take god away from your child - saying under God makes a child who doesn't believe say somethig they don't believe.




Please answer this question, if they were making your child pledge allegience to Odin or Thor or Isis or Ganeshe would you be ok with that?




Quoting 3lilladies81:

Why not y'all are taking God out of everything else. How about the act that it offends me that you want to take it out if the pledge?? so what your offense is better than mine?? Oh I guess because I'm a Christian I can never be offended because that would be "judgmental"


















EvilQueenMommy
by Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 10:04 PM
1 mom liked this

Yea, 10 years ago I knew everything, now I barely know anything :/

Quoting paperorplastic:

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.


CafeMom Tickers

 "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."- Evelyn Beatrice Hall


paperorplastic
by Silver Member on Jan. 9, 2013 at 10:14 PM

Do we?  Information, right or wrong is streamed to a computer.  And yet, lol?

Quoting autodidact:

but we live in such an amazing time, you can carry around free courses from Oxford University in your pocket in a device not much larger than a credit card. have you ever checked out educational podcasts, or TED talks, or Khan academy? it's really exciting how many resources are just there for the taking. 

and yet, lol: 
 

Quoting paperorplastic:

Lol!  I guess that concept hit me when I turned 40 a few years ago.  Autodidact, I wish I were younger somedays in the fact that there was so much I wish I paid attention to in my education, and life experience.  Yes it molded me, but there seems to be a lot I missed.   

Quoting autodidact:

meh, that's only because when you're young you have no concept of how much there is TO know. : )

Quoting paperorplastic:

I would agree with your statement.  I had to do a little research.  I posted a little article that was written by the author.  I'm happy to be educating myself with these posts.  My theory is the older I get, the less I know:). 

Quoting autodidact:

He was deceased at the time it was changed but according to his family he wouldn't have wanted it in there.

Quoting paperorplastic:

Just out of curiosity, since you mention the author, didn't someon have to get permission to re-write the POA?  I haven't had time to research this part of it.

Quoting autodidact:

The words don't belong in there. how is your religion being belittled by the insertion of words against theauthor's wishes?

Quoting 3lilladies81:

I love how you reword things to cause strife.

Quoting autodidact:

So your religion is belittled if it's not allowed to force it's way into any authors work?


Quoting 3lilladies81:

How does saying or not saying "one nation under God" make someone patriotic or not? Not believing in God does NOT make you a bad person. I honestly can't imagine little kids making fun of someone for not saying it I doubt they would even notice. As far as older children again unless the chil makes a big issue out of no one will probably even notice. Adults should not tell a child they are bad for not believing what they believe it's idiotic (has this actually happened to you?) Taking "under God" out of it DOES belittle my religion. So my children come home an ask why did they take out under God from the pledge is that not going to effect them? Um YEA it will! So are you going to explain to my child why all of the sudden it is out of the pledge? How is it any different!? It's not!! We are Pentecostal so yea we know what it is like to be looked at as different.





Quoting mikiemom:

and what if you child came home confused because everyone said that in order to be a patriot she had to believe in Isis and that is she didn't believe she was a bad person? What if your child said it just to fit in? What if your child was bullied for not saying it? How would you feel if the other parents told you so what who gives two hoots about how your kid feels; or that your child should feel shame for believing in the christian god instead of Isis?



not saying under god in the pledge in no way belittles or downplays your childs faith but forcing a non-christian to say it does downplay that child's choice of belief. Why are you ok with doing that to a child. Would you want that done to your child?



Quoting 3lilladies81:

My child simply wouldn't say it.



Quoting mikiemom:



Not saying Under God doesn't take god away from your child - saying under God makes a child who doesn't believe say somethig they don't believe.




Please answer this question, if they were making your child pledge allegience to Odin or Thor or Isis or Ganeshe would you be ok with that?




Quoting 3lilladies81:

Why not y'all are taking God out of everything else. How about the act that it offends me that you want to take it out if the pledge?? so what your offense is better than mine?? Oh I guess because I'm a Christian I can never be offended because that would be "judgmental"
















LucyMom08
by Silver Member on Jan. 10, 2013 at 12:21 AM
1 mom liked this

 I know exactly how that little girl feels...I was raised in a secular home in the Bible belt and the Pledge was a very serious occasion in elementary school...I remember the feeling of saying it and it feeling very wrong to me to say, but then I felt guilty and confused because I was the only one I knew that felt that way...

LucyMom08
by Silver Member on Jan. 10, 2013 at 12:24 AM

 I just saw this on FB, it cracked me up, haha...and side note: I ADORE TED Talks...

Quoting autodidact:

but we live in such an amazing time, you can carry around free courses from Oxford University in your pocket in a device not much larger than a credit card. have you ever checked out educational podcasts, or TED talks, or Khan academy? it's really exciting how many resources are just there for the taking. 

and yet, lol: 
 

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