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PIOG: Ireland May Allow Limited Abortions. How do YOU feel about this both there and here in the US. Please share your opinion on the OP

Posted by on Jul. 7, 2013 at 2:31 PM
  • 23 Replies

I'm posting this here because I know this group leans conservative and I have yet to get many conservatives replying to this post. So, please do share your vision of the points listed below to help me understand...

Ireland May Allow Limited Abortions

Politicians in the Catholic Republic of Ireland have overwhelmingly voted to introduce abortion in cases where the woman's life is in danger or she is at risk of suicide. John Waters, columnist for the Irish Times, speaks with Weekend Edition Sunday host Rachel Martin about this sensitive issue.

While Ireland is cracking open the door for this possibility, probably in response to last year's internationally publicized death case, this country is quickly closing the door with people/politicians pushing for more restrictions on abortion

My question is, How will this, and exceptions for rape and incest be POLICED? If this is a law, then there will be a legal system in place to enforce it. 

Some things to think about for discussion...

How MUCH of a danger must the mother's life be in in terms of percentages to qualify? 20% chance of dying? 50% chance of dying? If your daughter was pregnant and was at risk of dying giving birth, what percentage do you feel comfortable accepting?

Who decides if the woman meets this percentage on a case by case basis? Doctors often disagree, so how many doctors must agree? How long will the process take in a situation where every day every hour counts?

How will the doctors decisions be policed? 

Will a doctor be allowed a "quota" before becoming "suspect" in his decision making process?

What type of committee/group oversees the doctor's decision on this? Who will be on that committee? 

In terms of rape or incest, will a woman need to prove her case prior to receiving the abortion?

If so, will these cases be expedited and must result in a conviction to be approved considering that it now can take months and years to bring these cases through the court system if it ever goes to court?

If not, and the woman is allowed to have the abortion while waiting for the slow wheels of justice to turn will the woman be prosecuted for murder if her case does not result in a conviction? What should be her sentence?

Will responding police officers have a personal say in whether they believe the woman or not on the police report? 

What would all of this look like in practical terms?

Considering these things, do you feel comfortable letting politicians, administrators, policeman and judges make these decisions concerning the life or death of you or your own daughter?


Neon Washable Paint

by on Jul. 7, 2013 at 2:31 PM
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Replies (1-10):
29again
by Gold Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:15 PM

I am not going to answer all those questions, not because I don't "feel like it" or anything like that, but because I just don't have the answers to most of them.  In the first place, there is ALWAYS a risk, in EVERY pregnancy, of the mother dying.  But, I will answer the last one.  Considering these things, I certainly AM comfortable letting politicians, et al make decisions concerning the unnecessary murders of unborn children simply to suit the whim of a selfish woman.  I DO realize that not every abortion is for birth control, which are the ones I am referring to in this way.  I think abortions should be extremely limited, and I am quite comfortable with the laws that limit and restrict them.  I also think that when a particular solution is so easy it becomes the solution of choice, rather than just an option.

Lorik1969
by Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:19 PM
I think it's a day late and a dollar short for the women who have already lost their lives. But, not my country, not my business. We have enough to deal with in the increasingly messed up United States.
NWP
by Guerilla Girl on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:21 PM

OK...but how do you see this happen in practical terms IRL?

The part in red is of great concern to me and I believe that it may be the case that folks who think like you do do not consider the points above or cannot develop effective answers.

What if it was your married daughter who already had a few very young children at home who needed chemo and would absolutely not live another 3 months without it, but stood a great chance of surviving her cancer, but losing her pregnancy with it?

Please try to think it through to help me understand...How would it work exactly?

Quoting 29again:

I am not going to answer all those questions, not because I don't "feel like it" or anything like that, but because I just don't have the answers to most of them.  In the first place, there is ALWAYS a risk, in EVERY pregnancy, of the mother dying.  But, I will answer the last one.  Considering these things, I certainly AM comfortable letting politicians, et al make decisions concerning the unnecessary murders of unborn children simply to suit the whim of a selfish woman.  I DO realize that not every abortion is for birth control, which are the ones I am referring to in this way.  I think abortions should be extremely limited, and I am quite comfortable with the laws that limit and restrict them.  I also think that when a particular solution is so easy it becomes the solution of choice, rather than just an option.


Neon Washable Paint

NWP
by Guerilla Girl on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:23 PM
1 mom liked this

I do not believe you read my OP through...I am addressing how this would look in the US in those states that are passing severe restrictions manage to take it to this level, which is what many pro-life people want.

I want to know how they think this will look in practical, real life application...

Quoting Lorik1969:

I think it's a day late and a dollar short for the women who have already lost their lives. But, not my country, not my business. We have enough to deal with in the increasingly messed up United States.


Neon Washable Paint

29again
by Gold Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM
1 mom liked this

I promise you:  I will think on this, and try to come up with reasonable answers.  I have a couple things to do before the store closes, so I will come back to this.  Your ex. below is quite accurate, I do have a married dd with young children.  If she got cancer, though, I believe that she would take a different route than chemo, so that one too is hard to answer! 


LOL, why you doing this to me???  It is Sun, my day off, I don't want to think this hard, lol!  But, this is important, so.....  I'll be back!

Quoting NWP:

OK...but how do you see this happen in practical terms IRL?

The part in red is of great concern to me and I believe that it may be the case that folks who think like you do do not consider the points above or cannot develop effective answers.

What if it was your married daughter who already had a few very young children at home who needed chemo and would absolutely not live another 3 months without it, but stood a great chance of surviving her cancer, but losing her pregnancy with it?

Please try to think it through to help me understand...How would it work exactly?

Quoting 29again:

I am not going to answer all those questions, not because I don't "feel like it" or anything like that, but because I just don't have the answers to most of them.  In the first place, there is ALWAYS a risk, in EVERY pregnancy, of the mother dying.  But, I will answer the last one.  Considering these things, I certainly AM comfortable letting politicians, et al make decisions concerning the unnecessary murders of unborn children simply to suit the whim of a selfish woman.  I DO realize that not every abortion is for birth control, which are the ones I am referring to in this way.  I think abortions should be extremely limited, and I am quite comfortable with the laws that limit and restrict them.  I also think that when a particular solution is so easy it becomes the solution of choice, rather than just an option.



NWP
by Guerilla Girl on Jul. 7, 2013 at 3:45 PM

I appreciate your consideration. 

Your answers may help me understand.

I am pro-choice for the very reasons I listed above. It tears my heart out when I hear stories about the woman in Ireland last year who was allowed to die against her family's wishes when a simple abortion would have saved her life, or the teenage girl in the Dominican Republic who succumbed to leukemia along with her fetus because her chemo treatments were withheld while a committee took its time to decide if she had a good enough chance of living to have them or not. 

As a mother who is past my ability to have more children, I place myself in the position of the mothers of those two people and it breaks my heart. I read an interview full of anguish with the mother of the Dominican teen who was attempting to fight the slow process. I have no reason to believe that our own government, considering how little they function now, would move any faster.

I personally, knowing how politicians from all sides operate, could never trust a politician to put in place a system that would decide if my daughter lived or died in this situation. I would rather that be left with the family and with God as the judge, not our broken legal system.

Now that I have shared my personal reasons for making this post I wanted to say again thank you for your consideration.

Quoting 29again:

I promise you:  I will think on this, and try to come up with reasonable answers.  I have a couple things to do before the store closes, so I will come back to this.  Your ex. below is quite accurate, I do have a married dd with young children.  If she got cancer, though, I believe that she would take a different route than chemo, so that one too is hard to answer! 


LOL, why you doing this to me???  It is Sun, my day off, I don't want to think this hard, lol!  But, this is important, so.....  I'll be back!

Quoting NWP:

OK...but how do you see this happen in practical terms IRL?

The part in red is of great concern to me and I believe that it may be the case that folks who think like you do do not consider the points above or cannot develop effective answers.

What if it was your married daughter who already had a few very young children at home who needed chemo and would absolutely not live another 3 months without it, but stood a great chance of surviving her cancer, but losing her pregnancy with it?

Please try to think it through to help me understand...How would it work exactly?

Quoting 29again:

I am not going to answer all those questions, not because I don't "feel like it" or anything like that, but because I just don't have the answers to most of them.  In the first place, there is ALWAYS a risk, in EVERY pregnancy, of the mother dying.  But, I will answer the last one.  Considering these things, I certainly AM comfortable letting politicians, et al make decisions concerning the unnecessary murders of unborn children simply to suit the whim of a selfish woman.  I DO realize that not every abortion is for birth control, which are the ones I am referring to in this way.  I think abortions should be extremely limited, and I am quite comfortable with the laws that limit and restrict them.  I also think that when a particular solution is so easy it becomes the solution of choice, rather than just an option.




Neon Washable Paint

Lorik1969
by Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 4:07 PM
There can't be a clear cut, yes or no answer. First of all, unless the government plans to support every child born in this country, they need to stay out of women's bodies and lives. if you don't believe in abortion, don't whine about welfare. Abortions happened long before Roe v Wade, and they will continue. More women will simply die from them. How do you define the mother's life being in danger? Is she going to die, that's how. If a condition can be controlled while pregnant, then control it. If it can't, then the mother has as much right to life as the fetus, and the decision should be hers, or if she is unable to make it, then her next of kin. Should abortion be allowed past 24 weeks? In my opinion, no. Unless, of course, the mother's life is in danger. 6 months is more than enough time to make up your mind. Once the fetus is viable, it changes things a bit. The bottom line is that, in this country, the government has no business in my life or my body. The pro-lifers can stay out of it too, unless they, personally, plan to provide 18 years of emotional and monetary support to the mother and child.


Quoting NWP:

I do not believe you read my OP through...I am addressing how this would look in the US in those states that are passing severe restrictions manage to take it to this level, which is what many pro-life people want.

I want to know how they think this will look in practical, real life application...

Quoting Lorik1969:

I think it's a day late and a dollar short for the women who have already lost their lives. But, not my country, not my business. We have enough to deal with in the increasingly messed up United States.



NWP
by Guerilla Girl on Jul. 7, 2013 at 4:23 PM

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Unless you are someone who wishes to make abortion illegal I see no need to ponder the questions unless you fear this happening.

In my case, I am afraid for women and girls in states that are headed toward these restrictions. I do think about these questions and I cannot come up with answers for them that are satisfactory to me. Every possible outcome I can fathom is bad.

Quoting Lorik1969:

There can't be a clear cut, yes or no answer. First of all, unless the government plans to support every child born in this country, they need to stay out of women's bodies and lives. if you don't believe in abortion, don't whine about welfare. Abortions happened long before Roe v Wade, and they will continue. More women will simply die from them. How do you define the mother's life being in danger? Is she going to die, that's how. If a condition can be controlled while pregnant, then control it. If it can't, then the mother has as much right to life as the fetus, and the decision should be hers, or if she is unable to make it, then her next of kin. Should abortion be allowed past 24 weeks? In my opinion, no. Unless, of course, the mother's life is in danger. 6 months is more than enough time to make up your mind. Once the fetus is viable, it changes things a bit. The bottom line is that, in this country, the government has no business in my life or my body. The pro-lifers can stay out of it too, unless they, personally, plan to provide 18 years of emotional and monetary support to the mother and child.


Quoting NWP:

I do not believe you read my OP through...I am addressing how this would look in the US in those states that are passing severe restrictions manage to take it to this level, which is what many pro-life people want.

I want to know how they think this will look in practical, real life application...

Quoting Lorik1969:

I think it's a day late and a dollar short for the women who have already lost their lives. But, not my country, not my business. We have enough to deal with in the increasingly messed up United States.




Neon Washable Paint

gludwig2000
by Gina on Jul. 7, 2013 at 4:25 PM
2 moms liked this

 I'm not a Conservative, but I do believe that once we allow our government to begin to place restrictions, we will lose even more of our freedoms. I hate the thought of abortion used in place of contraception, but if we limit the number of abortions a woman is allowed to have, that opens the door on placing limits in other areas. As to the policing and prosecution of abortion limitations, I don't have the answer but I do believe that this too would lead to excess and women will suffer for it.

Lorik1969
by Member on Jul. 7, 2013 at 4:28 PM
Maybe I can stir up some pro-lifers. They can be pretty entertaining when they get going lol!


Quoting NWP:

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Unless you are someone who wishes to make abortion illegal I see no need to ponder the questions unless you fear this happening.

In my case, I am afraid for women and girls in states that are headed toward these restrictions. I do think about these questions and I cannot come up with answers for them that are satisfactory to me. Every possible outcome I can fathom is bad.

Quoting Lorik1969:

There can't be a clear cut, yes or no answer. First of all, unless the government plans to support every child born in this country, they need to stay out of women's bodies and lives. if you don't believe in abortion, don't whine about welfare. Abortions happened long before Roe v Wade, and they will continue. More women will simply die from them. How do you define the mother's life being in danger? Is she going to die, that's how. If a condition can be controlled while pregnant, then control it. If it can't, then the mother has as much right to life as the fetus, and the decision should be hers, or if she is unable to make it, then her next of kin. Should abortion be allowed past 24 weeks? In my opinion, no. Unless, of course, the mother's life is in danger. 6 months is more than enough time to make up your mind. Once the fetus is viable, it changes things a bit. The bottom line is that, in this country, the government has no business in my life or my body. The pro-lifers can stay out of it too, unless they, personally, plan to provide 18 years of emotional and monetary support to the mother and child.





Quoting NWP:

I do not believe you read my OP through...I am addressing how this would look in the US in those states that are passing severe restrictions manage to take it to this level, which is what many pro-life people want.

I want to know how they think this will look in practical, real life application...

Quoting Lorik1969:

I think it's a day late and a dollar short for the women who have already lost their lives. But, not my country, not my business. We have enough to deal with in the increasingly messed up United States.






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