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News & Politics News & Politics

Obamacare or the Debt Ceiling

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Republicans are winning the shutdown fight, and Democrats know it.

People turning on the news this week came away with the knowledge that it was about Obamacare and kept hearing that Democrats wouldn’t negotiate. They also learned that for some reason the President didn’t want Word War II veterans to tour their own memorial, and Harry Reid won’t turn the funding on for cancer clinical trials at the NIH. Oh, and the rollout for Obamacare is one big glitch.

Late yesterday came word that the Amber Alert system has been shut down, but Barack Obama’s federally funded golf course remains open. Catholics are openly fretting that priests on military bases could get arrested for performing mass — at the very least they are prohibited from doing so.

The President had to invite Congressional Leaders to talk, Harry Reid had to sit down with Dana Bash of CNN to explain himself, the shutdown coverage overall started to recede by Friday, and the Democrats began to shift the conversation to the debt limit.

The polls are shifting against the Democrats. They will continue to shift as more and more Americans realize that this fight is fundamentally about the letter they just received informing them of massive premium increases.

But the problem is that the expiration of the debt limit is on October 17th (or thereabouts, as the President manipulates it) and both Democrats and Republican Leadership have an incentive to merge a “grand bargain” to increase the debt limit with a continuing resolution that funds Obamacare. Both sides get to change the conversation–one to protect an unpopular law and the other to minimize political risk by reverting back to the norm–and get past two critical leverage points with a blend of GOP and Democrat votes.

The result will be no substantial changes to Obamacare. It will be funded in its entirety. Sure, they will repeal the medical device tax and maybe add the Vitter language to have the illusion that Congress is going to live under Obamacare. Nothing real though.

Don’t believe me? Listen to the reporting. Its all grand bargain and debt limit. The negotiations do not include Obamacare.

So the question is do we want to stop Obamacare or do we want to stop the debt ceiling increase? My view is that we cannot do both at the same time. We might dare to dream, but the debt ceiling will be increased one way or the other.

Right now the GOP is holding up very well in the press and public opinion because it is clear they want negotiations. The GOP keeps passing legislation to fund departments of government. It has put the Democrats in an awkward position.

But the moment the GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, we are going to have problems. Remember, the last time you and I wanted the GOP to fight on the debt ceiling, the attacks from our own side were particularly vicious.

They’ve been vicious over the shutdown too, but now that we are here, the water ain’t so bad and only a few ankle biting yappers continue to take shots at conservatives from the GOP side.

It will not be so with the debt ceiling. And the GOP will no longer seem very reasonable. The debt ceiling fight will become an impediment to undermining Obamacare.

It is what Republican leaders want. They are hoping for us to be recalcitrant and angry over the debt ceiling increase. They want to appear to shove us off by raising it. They know they can’t fight us on Obamacare because the public hates Obamacare. But they know they can on the debt ceiling because of the specter of default.

So what should we do? I think somebody like Steve Scalise, who chairs the Republican Study Committee, needs to propose a short-term debt limit for a few weeks and attach to it the Full Faith and Credit Act that ensures the Treasury Department prioritizes interest payments in the event the debt limit is ever not increased. This would buy us some time to finish the fight to defund Obamacare and set us up well to fight the next long-term debt limit increase to the death by removing some of the President’s scare tactics. How do Republican Leaders not adopt and push such a proposal? How does Obama not accept it without looking completely unreasonable?

Regardless, the only path to victory in this shutdown is to keep our fire on Obamacare and our focus on the defunding effort. We can still undermine Obamacare, but we need to resist the attempt to merge this with the debt limit and hold the line on the continuing resolution. Otherwise we will lose on both

by on Oct. 7, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Replies (101-109):
Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 1:56 PM
Who tells me who to vote for?
Quoting gludwig2000:

Yep, that's it Billie, its just that easy. Just because you vote for the person that you are told to vote for, doesn't mean everyone does.
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

My famly taught us to think for ourselves, and to follow our conscience. But I am going to ask you again, if you believe in voting the party ticket, whether or not you believe in the candidate?


Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting Analeigh2012:I think I understand what she is saying because I have fallen into that mold....
I was raised in the early 70s in New England and was a "Kennedy Democrat", which I have found is very central / moderate in today's realm. If you were to take the Democrats from 50 years ago, the values and platform of the left / far left are not the same as today. I do not fit in with the core of the right / far right or the left / far left. I am moderate on social issues - liberal on some issues and moderate on others. But with government control and fiscal issues - I am either moderate or conservative.

Unlike you, I was told growing up to just vote the ticket. We are a hard working family and vote Democratic. My grandmother still insists we "have" to vote for Obama (last election), because that is who the Democrats put up. I am not going to say my family is wrong, but I disagree with them. I think every candidate should be evaluated and I vote that way. So, I describe myself as a moderate conservative now, who was a moderate Democrat - my husband says I should just say I am an Independent.


Quoting gludwig2000:No, because I was taught to not vote the party ticket, to look at each individual and vote for whom I believed in, without allowing party to play a part in my vote. I had planned on voting McCain, until he named Palin as a running mate, so I instead voted for Obama.


Quoting pvtjokerus:

 I thought you were old school Dems but didn't want to assume.  I have distant family members that are the same way.  No matter what, they will vote Demo regardless on how bad the new Dems have shifted to the left in order for them to say...."I vote Democratic."  But you all realize that the old Dems barely exist anymore in this administration, right?  The current Dems are high-jacked by more liberal views and do not share the views of the old Dems.  Right now, you all are voting with the liberal Dems! ;  )



Quoting gludwig2000:I guess you can say we are old Democrats, and hell, Billie herself has tried to tell me that she believes that I am confused about my party because she believes I'm a conservative,lol. All of my family have always worked for a living, all of us. None of us were raised to stay home and live off of the government which is why I don't like the lables out there now about we are all looking for freebies. Hell, when that became the catch phrase of Reps/Cons, I was working two freaking jobs and quite often asked why I bothered since I was being labled with everyone else. That is why generalizations don't work, because not many of us fit into this nice, neat little box, and honestly, I've never wanted to fit into one. Hell, my whole family has defied the box,lol.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Does your family belong to the Democrats of the old or with the new?  There is a big difference.  The old Democrats were somewhat conservative and many from the South still vote Democratic because of the old Democratic values. 


 


Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:Damn it, it didn't post my replies. I don't really support the ACA, its a nice idea, but it wasn't the time for it, we had more important issues that needed attention. And for the record, nobody is giving me anything. I've worked all of my life, don't get welfare, food stamps, an Obama phone, free housing or any of the others freebies us Dems are supposed to want.Post the replies again.You may not want free stuff but you vote with people who do.


Not for nothing, but all of my life, the Democratic Party has been the party of the working class. I know that you and many others want to change that classification, but it still remains true today, despite all the crap about "hand outs" and "freebies".

That is not true.If it were I would be a Democrat.

And so you deny my entire childhood and the fact that I come from a family of working class people who are and were mostly Democrats. "If you say it, then it must be so" doesn't work for me, sorry.


 


 





 






Your family understood that politics is a team endeavor. That fact seems lost on so many.





Think for yourself, to what limit?

Did they send you to school and say Look that math teacher will tell you that 2 plus 2 equals 4, but fuck that noise, you decide what 2 plus 2 is for yourself?


gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 14, 2013 at 4:21 PM
You and I view her in different lights, thats for sure. I don't really know much about her now, but my opinion of her from her run as VP is that I think that she believes herself to be entitled. My opinion, of course, since I don't know her personally, is that she wants to hold a high office here just for the prestige. If she decides to run in 2016, I wish her luck but she will not get my vote, but then H.Clinton probably wouldn't get it either.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Based on what you know now about Palin her pros: her standing up to corrupt Repubs and Demos in her state, her Constitutional values, her ability to rally the troops vs her cons: departing from the govern-ship early due to lawsuits.....How do you now see her?


Quoting gludwig2000:

Honestly, there was a bigger chance that Palin would become president then Biden. McCain has his age against him, and when you throw in the stress that comes with the job, I'm not sure he would have lasted. I know that he is a tough old guy, but to my mind, it wasn't something I personally was willing to risk. Believe me, Biden isn't any better than Palin, imo.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 So why did you pick Biden over Palen?

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

No, because I was taught to not vote the party ticket, to look at each individual and vote for whom I believed in, without allowing party to play a part in my vote. I had planned on voting McCain, until he named Palin as a running mate, so I instead voted for Obama.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 I thought you were old school Dems but didn't want to assume.  I have distant family members that are the same way.  No matter what, they will vote Demo regardless on how bad the new Dems have shifted to the left in order for them to say...."I vote Democratic."  But you all realize that the old Dems barely exist anymore in this administration, right?  The current Dems are high-jacked by more liberal views and do not share the views of the old Dems.  Right now, you all are voting with the liberal Dems! ;  )

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

I guess you can say we are old Democrats, and hell, Billie herself has tried to tell me that she believes that I am confused about my party because she believes I'm a conservative,lol. All of my family have always worked for a living, all of us. None of us were raised to stay home and live off of the government which is why I don't like the lables out there now about we are all looking for freebies. Hell, when that became the catch phrase of Reps/Cons, I was working two freaking jobs and quite often asked why I bothered since I was being labled with everyone else. That is why generalizations don't work, because not many of us fit into this nice, neat little box, and honestly, I've never wanted to fit into one. Hell, my whole family has defied the box,lol.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Does your family belong to the Democrats of the old or with the new?  There is a big difference.  The old Democrats were somewhat conservative and many from the South still vote Democratic because of the old Democratic values. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:Damn it, it didn't post my replies. I don't really support the ACA, its a nice idea, but it wasn't the time for it, we had more important issues that needed attention. And for the record, nobody is giving me anything. I've worked all of my life, don't get welfare, food stamps, an Obama phone, free housing or any of the others freebies us Dems are supposed to want.



Post the replies again.


You may not want free stuff but you vote with people who do.







Not for nothing, but all of my life, the Democratic Party has been the party of the working class. I know that you and many others want to change that classification, but it still remains true today, despite all the crap about "hand outs" and "freebies".



That is not true.

If it were I would be a Democrat.

And so you deny my entire childhood and the fact that I come from a family of working class people who are and were mostly Democrats. "If you say it, then it must be so" doesn't work for me, sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

joyfree
by Kat on Oct. 14, 2013 at 6:12 PM



Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting joyfree:

She KNOWS, Gludwig, believe me. She thinks that she is smarter than everyone else for some extremely odd reason.



Quoting gludwig2000:Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:



Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.














Because I am.

No other reason.


NOT!

sidesplittinglaughter

pvtjokerus
by Gold Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 6:35 PM

 Entitled?  Nah.....you haven't study her.  Well, at least you are not going to vote for the crook, Hillary! lol


Quoting gludwig2000:

You and I view her in different lights, thats for sure. I don't really know much about her now, but my opinion of her from her run as VP is that I think that she believes herself to be entitled. My opinion, of course, since I don't know her personally, is that she wants to hold a high office here just for the prestige. If she decides to run in 2016, I wish her luck but she will not get my vote, but then H.Clinton probably wouldn't get it either.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Based on what you know now about Palin her pros: her standing up to corrupt Repubs and Demos in her state, her Constitutional values, her ability to rally the troops vs her cons: departing from the govern-ship early due to lawsuits.....How do you now see her?

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Honestly, there was a bigger chance that Palin would become president then Biden. McCain has his age against him, and when you throw in the stress that comes with the job, I'm not sure he would have lasted. I know that he is a tough old guy, but to my mind, it wasn't something I personally was willing to risk. Believe me, Biden isn't any better than Palin, imo.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 So why did you pick Biden over Palen?

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

No, because I was taught to not vote the party ticket, to look at each individual and vote for whom I believed in, without allowing party to play a part in my vote. I had planned on voting McCain, until he named Palin as a running mate, so I instead voted for Obama.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 I thought you were old school Dems but didn't want to assume.  I have distant family members that are the same way.  No matter what, they will vote Demo regardless on how bad the new Dems have shifted to the left in order for them to say...."I vote Democratic."  But you all realize that the old Dems barely exist anymore in this administration, right?  The current Dems are high-jacked by more liberal views and do not share the views of the old Dems.  Right now, you all are voting with the liberal Dems! ;  )

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

I guess you can say we are old Democrats, and hell, Billie herself has tried to tell me that she believes that I am confused about my party because she believes I'm a conservative,lol. All of my family have always worked for a living, all of us. None of us were raised to stay home and live off of the government which is why I don't like the lables out there now about we are all looking for freebies. Hell, when that became the catch phrase of Reps/Cons, I was working two freaking jobs and quite often asked why I bothered since I was being labled with everyone else. That is why generalizations don't work, because not many of us fit into this nice, neat little box, and honestly, I've never wanted to fit into one. Hell, my whole family has defied the box,lol.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Does your family belong to the Democrats of the old or with the new?  There is a big difference.  The old Democrats were somewhat conservative and many from the South still vote Democratic because of the old Democratic values. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:Damn it, it didn't post my replies. I don't really support the ACA, its a nice idea, but it wasn't the time for it, we had more important issues that needed attention. And for the record, nobody is giving me anything. I've worked all of my life, don't get welfare, food stamps, an Obama phone, free housing or any of the others freebies us Dems are supposed to want.



Post the replies again.


You may not want free stuff but you vote with people who do.







Not for nothing, but all of my life, the Democratic Party has been the party of the working class. I know that you and many others want to change that classification, but it still remains true today, despite all the crap about "hand outs" and "freebies".



That is not true.

If it were I would be a Democrat.

And so you deny my entire childhood and the fact that I come from a family of working class people who are and were mostly Democrats. "If you say it, then it must be so" doesn't work for me, sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Redwall
by Bronze Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 7:07 PM
1 mom liked this

Just give me someone, anyone, who follows the Constitution to a T and we'll all be fine.

Ednarooni160
by Eds on Oct. 14, 2013 at 10:06 PM
1 mom liked this


Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Oct. 15, 2013 at 3:55 PM

 

Once again, Who do you think tells me who to vote for?

Quoting gludwig2000:

Yep, that's it Billie, its just that easy. Just because you vote for the person that you are told to vote for, doesn't mean everyone does.
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

My famly taught us to think for ourselves, and to follow our conscience. But I am going to ask you again, if you believe in voting the party ticket, whether or not you believe in the candidate?


Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting Analeigh2012:I think I understand what she is saying because I have fallen into that mold....
I was raised in the early 70s in New England and was a "Kennedy Democrat", which I have found is very central / moderate in today's realm. If you were to take the Democrats from 50 years ago, the values and platform of the left / far left are not the same as today. I do not fit in with the core of the right / far right or the left / far left. I am moderate on social issues - liberal on some issues and moderate on others. But with government control and fiscal issues - I am either moderate or conservative.

Unlike you, I was told growing up to just vote the ticket. We are a hard working family and vote Democratic. My grandmother still insists we "have" to vote for Obama (last election), because that is who the Democrats put up. I am not going to say my family is wrong, but I disagree with them. I think every candidate should be evaluated and I vote that way. So, I describe myself as a moderate conservative now, who was a moderate Democrat - my husband says I should just say I am an Independent.


Quoting gludwig2000:No, because I was taught to not vote the party ticket, to look at each individual and vote for whom I believed in, without allowing party to play a part in my vote. I had planned on voting McCain, until he named Palin as a running mate, so I instead voted for Obama.


Quoting pvtjokerus:

 I thought you were old school Dems but didn't want to assume.  I have distant family members that are the same way.  No matter what, they will vote Demo regardless on how bad the new Dems have shifted to the left in order for them to say...."I vote Democratic."  But you all realize that the old Dems barely exist anymore in this administration, right?  The current Dems are high-jacked by more liberal views and do not share the views of the old Dems.  Right now, you all are voting with the liberal Dems! ;  )


 


Quoting gludwig2000:I guess you can say we are old Democrats, and hell, Billie herself has tried to tell me that she believes that I am confused about my party because she believes I'm a conservative,lol. All of my family have always worked for a living, all of us. None of us were raised to stay home and live off of the government which is why I don't like the lables out there now about we are all looking for freebies. Hell, when that became the catch phrase of Reps/Cons, I was working two freaking jobs and quite often asked why I bothered since I was being labled with everyone else. That is why generalizations don't work, because not many of us fit into this nice, neat little box, and honestly, I've never wanted to fit into one. Hell, my whole family has defied the box,lol.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Does your family belong to the Democrats of the old or with the new?  There is a big difference.  The old Democrats were somewhat conservative and many from the South still vote Democratic because of the old Democratic values. 


 


Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:Damn it, it didn't post my replies. I don't really support the ACA, its a nice idea, but it wasn't the time for it, we had more important issues that needed attention. And for the record, nobody is giving me anything. I've worked all of my life, don't get welfare, food stamps, an Obama phone, free housing or any of the others freebies us Dems are supposed to want.Post the replies again.You may not want free stuff but you vote with people who do.


Not for nothing, but all of my life, the Democratic Party has been the party of the working class. I know that you and many others want to change that classification, but it still remains true today, despite all the crap about "hand outs" and "freebies".

That is not true.If it were I would be a Democrat.

And so you deny my entire childhood and the fact that I come from a family of working class people who are and were mostly Democrats. "If you say it, then it must be so" doesn't work for me, sorry.


 


 




 


 






Your family understood that politics is a team endeavor. That fact seems lost on so many.





Think for yourself, to what limit?

Did they send you to school and say Look that math teacher will tell you that 2 plus 2 equals 4, but fuck that noise, you decide what 2 plus 2 is for yourself?


 

gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 15, 2013 at 4:23 PM
You are the one who quoted Analeigh commending her family for voting the party ticket and implying that I don't understand that its a "team effort", yet when I asked you if you always did the same, even if you don't believe in the candidate, you told me that you vote the party ticket 99% of the time, having only voted for one dem in your life. You also questioned my family teaching us to think for ourselves as if that is a bad thing, which means in my mind, that your party tells you who to vote for. When you vote a straight party ticket, yes, you are allowing the party to tell you who to vote for, which is why I don't vote that way, and instead pick who I believe is the best candidate in each individual race regardless of party.
Quoting Billiejeens:

 

Once again, Who do you think tells me who to vote for?

Quoting gludwig2000:

Yep, that's it Billie, its just that easy. Just because you vote for the person that you are told to vote for, doesn't mean everyone does.
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

My famly taught us to think for ourselves, and to follow our conscience. But I am going to ask you again, if you believe in voting the party ticket, whether or not you believe in the candidate?


Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting Analeigh2012:I think I understand what she is saying because I have fallen into that mold....
I was raised in the early 70s in New England and was a "Kennedy Democrat", which I have found is very central / moderate in today's realm. If you were to take the Democrats from 50 years ago, the values and platform of the left / far left are not the same as today. I do not fit in with the core of the right / far right or the left / far left. I am moderate on social issues - liberal on some issues and moderate on others. But with government control and fiscal issues - I am either moderate or conservative.

Unlike you, I was told growing up to just vote the ticket. We are a hard working family and vote Democratic. My grandmother still insists we "have" to vote for Obama (last election), because that is who the Democrats put up. I am not going to say my family is wrong, but I disagree with them. I think every candidate should be evaluated and I vote that way. So, I describe myself as a moderate conservative now, who was a moderate Democrat - my husband says I should just say I am an Independent.


Quoting gludwig2000:No, because I was taught to not vote the party ticket, to look at each individual and vote for whom I believed in, without allowing party to play a part in my vote. I had planned on voting McCain, until he named Palin as a running mate, so I instead voted for Obama.


Quoting pvtjokerus:

 I thought you were old school Dems but didn't want to assume.  I have distant family members that are the same way.  No matter what, they will vote Demo regardless on how bad the new Dems have shifted to the left in order for them to say...."I vote Democratic."  But you all realize that the old Dems barely exist anymore in this administration, right?  The current Dems are high-jacked by more liberal views and do not share the views of the old Dems.  Right now, you all are voting with the liberal Dems! ;  )


 


Quoting gludwig2000:I guess you can say we are old Democrats, and hell, Billie herself has tried to tell me that she believes that I am confused about my party because she believes I'm a conservative,lol. All of my family have always worked for a living, all of us. None of us were raised to stay home and live off of the government which is why I don't like the lables out there now about we are all looking for freebies. Hell, when that became the catch phrase of Reps/Cons, I was working two freaking jobs and quite often asked why I bothered since I was being labled with everyone else. That is why generalizations don't work, because not many of us fit into this nice, neat little box, and honestly, I've never wanted to fit into one. Hell, my whole family has defied the box,lol.
Quoting pvtjokerus:

 Does your family belong to the Democrats of the old or with the new?  There is a big difference.  The old Democrats were somewhat conservative and many from the South still vote Democratic because of the old Democratic values. 


 


Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:
Quoting Billiejeens:
Quoting gludwig2000:Damn it, it didn't post my replies. I don't really support the ACA, its a nice idea, but it wasn't the time for it, we had more important issues that needed attention. And for the record, nobody is giving me anything. I've worked all of my life, don't get welfare, food stamps, an Obama phone, free housing or any of the others freebies us Dems are supposed to want.Post the replies again.You may not want free stuff but you vote with people who do.


Not for nothing, but all of my life, the Democratic Party has been the party of the working class. I know that you and many others want to change that classification, but it still remains true today, despite all the crap about "hand outs" and "freebies".

That is not true.If it were I would be a Democrat.

And so you deny my entire childhood and the fact that I come from a family of working class people who are and were mostly Democrats. "If you say it, then it must be so" doesn't work for me, sorry.


 


 




 


 






Your family understood that politics is a team endeavor. That fact seems lost on so many.





Think for yourself, to what limit?

Did they send you to school and say Look that math teacher will tell you that 2 plus 2 equals 4, but fuck that noise, you decide what 2 plus 2 is for yourself?


 

cammibear
by Bronze Member on Oct. 15, 2013 at 5:48 PM
I think it was smooth moving to the debt ceiling and away from Obamacare.

I think Obamacare should be our focus. As long as we are trying to fund this monstrosity we will never be able to balance the budget and we will have to continue raising the debt limit. The numbers don't work. This should be our number 1 priority.
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