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News & Politics News & Politics

Obamacare or the Debt Ceiling

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Republicans are winning the shutdown fight, and Democrats know it.

People turning on the news this week came away with the knowledge that it was about Obamacare and kept hearing that Democrats wouldn’t negotiate. They also learned that for some reason the President didn’t want Word War II veterans to tour their own memorial, and Harry Reid won’t turn the funding on for cancer clinical trials at the NIH. Oh, and the rollout for Obamacare is one big glitch.

Late yesterday came word that the Amber Alert system has been shut down, but Barack Obama’s federally funded golf course remains open. Catholics are openly fretting that priests on military bases could get arrested for performing mass — at the very least they are prohibited from doing so.

The President had to invite Congressional Leaders to talk, Harry Reid had to sit down with Dana Bash of CNN to explain himself, the shutdown coverage overall started to recede by Friday, and the Democrats began to shift the conversation to the debt limit.

The polls are shifting against the Democrats. They will continue to shift as more and more Americans realize that this fight is fundamentally about the letter they just received informing them of massive premium increases.

But the problem is that the expiration of the debt limit is on October 17th (or thereabouts, as the President manipulates it) and both Democrats and Republican Leadership have an incentive to merge a “grand bargain” to increase the debt limit with a continuing resolution that funds Obamacare. Both sides get to change the conversation–one to protect an unpopular law and the other to minimize political risk by reverting back to the norm–and get past two critical leverage points with a blend of GOP and Democrat votes.

The result will be no substantial changes to Obamacare. It will be funded in its entirety. Sure, they will repeal the medical device tax and maybe add the Vitter language to have the illusion that Congress is going to live under Obamacare. Nothing real though.

Don’t believe me? Listen to the reporting. Its all grand bargain and debt limit. The negotiations do not include Obamacare.

So the question is do we want to stop Obamacare or do we want to stop the debt ceiling increase? My view is that we cannot do both at the same time. We might dare to dream, but the debt ceiling will be increased one way or the other.

Right now the GOP is holding up very well in the press and public opinion because it is clear they want negotiations. The GOP keeps passing legislation to fund departments of government. It has put the Democrats in an awkward position.

But the moment the GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, we are going to have problems. Remember, the last time you and I wanted the GOP to fight on the debt ceiling, the attacks from our own side were particularly vicious.

They’ve been vicious over the shutdown too, but now that we are here, the water ain’t so bad and only a few ankle biting yappers continue to take shots at conservatives from the GOP side.

It will not be so with the debt ceiling. And the GOP will no longer seem very reasonable. The debt ceiling fight will become an impediment to undermining Obamacare.

It is what Republican leaders want. They are hoping for us to be recalcitrant and angry over the debt ceiling increase. They want to appear to shove us off by raising it. They know they can’t fight us on Obamacare because the public hates Obamacare. But they know they can on the debt ceiling because of the specter of default.

So what should we do? I think somebody like Steve Scalise, who chairs the Republican Study Committee, needs to propose a short-term debt limit for a few weeks and attach to it the Full Faith and Credit Act that ensures the Treasury Department prioritizes interest payments in the event the debt limit is ever not increased. This would buy us some time to finish the fight to defund Obamacare and set us up well to fight the next long-term debt limit increase to the death by removing some of the President’s scare tactics. How do Republican Leaders not adopt and push such a proposal? How does Obama not accept it without looking completely unreasonable?

Regardless, the only path to victory in this shutdown is to keep our fire on Obamacare and our focus on the defunding effort. We can still undermine Obamacare, but we need to resist the attempt to merge this with the debt limit and hold the line on the continuing resolution. Otherwise we will lose on both

by on Oct. 7, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Replies (21-30):
gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 7, 2013 at 6:44 PM
1 mom liked this
Well then, I consider myself corrected. I see him as reluctant, you see him as obstinate, so once again, its all in perceptions. But its good to know that you too consider me and others unintelligent, as Billie did.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.


Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 


 

gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 7, 2013 at 6:53 PM
2 moms liked this
Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.


Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 


 

Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Oct. 7, 2013 at 7:00 PM
1 mom liked this
Quoting marchantmom06:

Do you know the stats of office holders?

House

Membership
435 Members
5 Delegates
1 Resident
Commissioner
Party Divisions
232 Republicans
200 Democrats
0 Independents
3 Vacancies

Then If a majority of the Representatives say or select yes, the bill passes in the U.S. House of Representatives. The bill is then certified by the Clerk of the House and delivered to the U.S. Senate.

Senate

Membership
100 Senators
(Vice President votes in case of a tie)
Party Divisions
52 Democrats
46 Republicans
2 Independents

Then
Senators vote by voice. Those who support the bill say “yea,” and those who oppose it say “nay.” If a majority of the Senators say “yea,” the bill passes in the U.S. Senate and is ready to go to the President.

If no republicans voted it would not have made it out of the house.





Quoting Billiejeens:

 


No that's false.


It "passed" with out a single Republican Vote in either house.


Quoting marchantmom06:Oh there you go again. Which of the seats do you hold that has you in the meetings? Or are you just assuming anyone is doing anything to uphold the constitution. You forget these are the same people who passed Obamacare over 3 years ago. And now they want to act concerned to get re elected. None of those fools are for the American people or they would have voted to not receive their 91 million dollar collective salary.
Quoting SallyMJ:

We have a president and the Senate majority leader who won't negotiate.


And the House doing their Constitutional responsibility under Section 7.


Your point again?


Quoting marchantmom06:I'm pretty sure we will lose on both anyways. With a president that won't negotiate, and parties only out for themselves, the people are the only ones who get screwed.






 






Are you totally out of it?

We were discussing the "passing" of the AHCA.

marchantmom06
by Bronze Member on Oct. 7, 2013 at 7:40 PM
1 mom liked this
There is another one.... An Illogical reply when facts are presented. These people PASS the bills. Without their votes no bill is passed.


Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting marchantmom06:

Do you know the stats of office holders?



House



Membership

435 Members

5 Delegates

1 Resident

Commissioner

Party Divisions

232 Republicans

200 Democrats

0 Independents

3 Vacancies



Then If a majority of the Representatives say or select yes, the bill passes in the U.S. House of Representatives. The bill is then certified by the Clerk of the House and delivered to the U.S. Senate.



Senate



Membership

100 Senators

(Vice President votes in case of a tie)

Party Divisions

52 Democrats

46 Republicans

2 Independents



Then

Senators vote by voice. Those who support the bill say “yea,” and those who oppose it say “nay.” If a majority of the Senators say “yea,” the bill passes in the U.S. Senate and is ready to go to the President.



If no republicans voted it would not have made it out of the house.











Quoting Billiejeens:

 



No that's false.



It "passed" with out a single Republican Vote in either house.



Quoting marchantmom06:Oh there you go again. Which of the seats do you hold that has you in the meetings? Or are you just assuming anyone is doing anything to uphold the constitution. You forget these are the same people who passed Obamacare over 3 years ago. And now they want to act concerned to get re elected. None of those fools are for the American people or they would have voted to not receive their 91 million dollar collective salary.

Quoting SallyMJ:

We have a president and the Senate majority leader who won't negotiate.



And the House doing their Constitutional responsibility under Section 7.



Your point again?



Quoting marchantmom06:I'm pretty sure we will lose on both anyways. With a president that won't negotiate, and parties only out for themselves, the people are the only ones who get screwed.









 









Are you totally out of it?



We were discussing the "passing" of the AHCA.




Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Oct. 7, 2013 at 10:28 PM
2 moms liked this

Actually I do consider you to be intelligent ~ but words mean something, and knowing what they mean is the only way people can communicate. Making up your own definition isn't helpful to that process.

When someone repeatedly says 'I will not negotiate', even with a partial government shut down and a looming default on the US debt, they are obstinate ... and believe me when I say I am being as kind as possible in my choice of words.


Quoting gludwig2000:

Well then, I consider myself corrected. I see him as reluctant, you see him as obstinate, so once again, its all in perceptions. But its good to know that you too consider me and others unintelligent, as Billie did.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 


 

Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Oct. 7, 2013 at 10:33 PM
1 mom liked this

Really?? This is what I get when I google them both.

ob·sti·nate
ˈäbstənit/
adjective
adjective: obstinate
1.
stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
antonyms: compliant
  • (of an unwelcome phenomenon or situation
 
re·luc·tant
riˈləktənt/
adjective
adjective: reluctant
  1. 1.
    unwilling and hesitant; disinclined.
    "she seemed reluctant to discuss the matter"
    synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, unenthusiastic, resistant, resisting, opposed; More


 Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 


 

SallyMJ
by Ruby Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 3:59 AM
1 mom liked this

It's what happens when you take too much calcium. You recalcitrate it.

Quoting Billiejeens:


Seriously?

Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.

Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.

I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.




SallyMJ
by Ruby Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 4:45 AM
3 moms liked this

"There you go again...!" One of Reagan's most famous lines.   :)

Just listen to Obama say about every 1-2 days: "I will NOT negotiate with Republicans." Are you SERIOUS you haven't heard him say that? Where have you been? He says it every day or two. Google it and you will find  tons of videos. Ask your liberal friends. Everyone knows O said, NO negotiating with Republicans, and dammit, especially not Tea Party members!!!!!!! They are terrorists, arsonists, murderers, suicide bombers, anarchists... Ironic, since these kinds of people are overwhelmingly libs.

As you know, Marchantmom - every law must be funded before it can go into effect. There are some bills passed that don't end up getting funded, or not funded completely. That's nothing new.

I don't understand how Dems don't get this - Funding is a different step from voting in a law. It's been 3-1/2 years since Obamacare passed. The House in Oct. 2013 is very different from the House in March 2010 - 3-1/2 years!! You do know that Republicans took 60-something seats away from Democrats in Nov. 2010? - only 7 months after the Obamacare vote - because Americans were pissed? That's how the Tea Party was even formed - because Americans were pissed becaue of Obamacare. How can you be naive and not realizing the leadership dynamics n the House have changed? It changed starting November 2010. As O is fond of saying, "Elections have consequences."  

Republican Representatives are simply supporting their citizens on how they fund Obamacare. As Democrat Senators do. Republicans  are not Democrats, so they vote differently from how Dems would vote.

And as you WELL know - there have been not one, but THREE bills re: Obamacare sent to the Senate. The most recent one does not defund, does not delay for everyone for a year, but merely removes all the special exemptions, delays, subsidiaries for government workers that Obama added to the bill after SCOTUS reviewed it - inequities that make this bill so unfair to average Americans. Which means the law would everyone the same, meeting the standard in the 14th Amendment - equal protection under the law. How can you, O, and Reid possibly side with Big Corporations and government workers against the American people? How can you possible oppose fairness, liberty and justice for all - and side instead with Big Corporations? 


Quoting marchantmom06:

Oh there you go again. Which of the seats do you hold that has you in the meetings? Or are you just assuming anyone is doing anything to uphold the constitution.
You forget these are the same people who passed Obamacare over 3 years ago. And now they want to act concerned to get re elected.

None of those fools are for the American people or they would have voted to not receive their 91 million dollar collective salary.


Quoting SallyMJ:

We have a president and the Senate majority leader who won't negotiate.

And the House doing their Constitutional responsibility under Section 7.

Your point again?

Quoting marchantmom06:

I'm pretty sure we will lose on both anyways. With a president that won't negotiate, and parties only out for themselves, the people are the only ones who get screwed.




143myboys9496
by Gold Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 5:42 AM
2 moms liked this

 Sorry but the might sound the same but are different. One describes a person who is is not...negotiable, doesn't follow rules and does't care what happens when they don't follow the rules.The other describes someone who is negotiable. Who knows the right thing to do and will do it even though they would rather do something different.

Perfect example I pulled from another post, this is the quote:

 " "Reagan would say, 'I'd rather get 80% of what I want than go over the cliff with my flag flying.'"

Getting 80% is reluctant, going "over the cliff with my flag flying" is recalcitrant. Reagan was the former, Obama is the latter.

re·cal·ci·trant

[ri-kal-si-truhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
resisting authority or control; not obedient or compliant; refractory.
2.
hard to deal with, manage, or operate.
noun
3.
a recalcitrant person.
1. resistant, rebellious, opposed. See unruly.
 
 
 
re·luc·tant
[ri-luhk-tuhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
unwilling; disinclined: a reluctant candidate.
2.
struggling in opposition.
 
Reluctant implies some sort of mental struggle, as between disinclination and sense of duty: reluctant to expel students.
 
 
 
Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

 

 

 

143myboys9496
by Gold Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 5:48 AM
1 mom liked this

 sidesplittinglaughter

Quoting SallyMJ:

It's what happens when you take too much calcium. You recalcitrate it.

Quoting Billiejeens:

 

Seriously?

Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.

Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.

I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.

 

 


 

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