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News & Politics News & Politics

Obamacare or the Debt Ceiling

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Republicans are winning the shutdown fight, and Democrats know it.

People turning on the news this week came away with the knowledge that it was about Obamacare and kept hearing that Democrats wouldn’t negotiate. They also learned that for some reason the President didn’t want Word War II veterans to tour their own memorial, and Harry Reid won’t turn the funding on for cancer clinical trials at the NIH. Oh, and the rollout for Obamacare is one big glitch.

Late yesterday came word that the Amber Alert system has been shut down, but Barack Obama’s federally funded golf course remains open. Catholics are openly fretting that priests on military bases could get arrested for performing mass — at the very least they are prohibited from doing so.

The President had to invite Congressional Leaders to talk, Harry Reid had to sit down with Dana Bash of CNN to explain himself, the shutdown coverage overall started to recede by Friday, and the Democrats began to shift the conversation to the debt limit.

The polls are shifting against the Democrats. They will continue to shift as more and more Americans realize that this fight is fundamentally about the letter they just received informing them of massive premium increases.

But the problem is that the expiration of the debt limit is on October 17th (or thereabouts, as the President manipulates it) and both Democrats and Republican Leadership have an incentive to merge a “grand bargain” to increase the debt limit with a continuing resolution that funds Obamacare. Both sides get to change the conversation–one to protect an unpopular law and the other to minimize political risk by reverting back to the norm–and get past two critical leverage points with a blend of GOP and Democrat votes.

The result will be no substantial changes to Obamacare. It will be funded in its entirety. Sure, they will repeal the medical device tax and maybe add the Vitter language to have the illusion that Congress is going to live under Obamacare. Nothing real though.

Don’t believe me? Listen to the reporting. Its all grand bargain and debt limit. The negotiations do not include Obamacare.

So the question is do we want to stop Obamacare or do we want to stop the debt ceiling increase? My view is that we cannot do both at the same time. We might dare to dream, but the debt ceiling will be increased one way or the other.

Right now the GOP is holding up very well in the press and public opinion because it is clear they want negotiations. The GOP keeps passing legislation to fund departments of government. It has put the Democrats in an awkward position.

But the moment the GOP refuses to raise the debt ceiling, we are going to have problems. Remember, the last time you and I wanted the GOP to fight on the debt ceiling, the attacks from our own side were particularly vicious.

They’ve been vicious over the shutdown too, but now that we are here, the water ain’t so bad and only a few ankle biting yappers continue to take shots at conservatives from the GOP side.

It will not be so with the debt ceiling. And the GOP will no longer seem very reasonable. The debt ceiling fight will become an impediment to undermining Obamacare.

It is what Republican leaders want. They are hoping for us to be recalcitrant and angry over the debt ceiling increase. They want to appear to shove us off by raising it. They know they can’t fight us on Obamacare because the public hates Obamacare. But they know they can on the debt ceiling because of the specter of default.

So what should we do? I think somebody like Steve Scalise, who chairs the Republican Study Committee, needs to propose a short-term debt limit for a few weeks and attach to it the Full Faith and Credit Act that ensures the Treasury Department prioritizes interest payments in the event the debt limit is ever not increased. This would buy us some time to finish the fight to defund Obamacare and set us up well to fight the next long-term debt limit increase to the death by removing some of the President’s scare tactics. How do Republican Leaders not adopt and push such a proposal? How does Obama not accept it without looking completely unreasonable?

Regardless, the only path to victory in this shutdown is to keep our fire on Obamacare and our focus on the defunding effort. We can still undermine Obamacare, but we need to resist the attempt to merge this with the debt limit and hold the line on the continuing resolution. Otherwise we will lose on both

by on Oct. 7, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Replies (41-50):
Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 9:14 AM

 

Dang, you made me forget my gym shoes.

Quoting marchantmom06:

You better hurry before you miss your bus to high school. The adults will be here waiting when you come back with knowledge and some better skills. TTFN.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


so you don't know - okay.


Quoting marchantmom06:

Child if you don't know how it works I suggest picking up a book. But again, I'm not the one that has the burden of proof. You are and it seems anytime you get under fire you attempt to attack someone so your little buddies will come click the like button and make you feel better about yourself.

If you don't know all the ins and outs of the process then go research it. Good luck with all that, oh and I'll throw you a bone. It's generally republicans that use this as a way to get what they want passed. "Congress has used the procedure to enact omnibus budget bills, first in 1980. Between 1980 and 2009, 17 of 23 reconciliation bills have been signed into law by Republican presidents (a Republican was president for 20 of those 29 years).


Quoting Billiejeens:


 



Ok here is your big moment - don't blow it.



Describe "the reconciliation process" (mis) used to pass the AHCA and how it by-passed the House's role in Governing.




 



Quoting marchantmom06:

I know exactly what it is.

And unless you can from  form a real question with a subject then I cannot answer the questions.




Quoting Billiejeens:



 




You obviously don't know what reconciliation is.




All the rest of your stuff, what point in time are you talking about?




Quoting marchantmom06:

I'm not embarrassing myself. I like your copy and paste answer. Reconciliation is the reason we are here in a shut down today. But don't act like congress has never done that before. Do some research, it's pretty common. And only 60 republicans had go appeal for it to be overturned. Yet here we sit. So step off, I see you had nothing to say about the 25 reps that stood by and kissed Barry's ass. But surprise surprise you only comment on something when you can put someone down. Grow up Billie.





Quoting Billiejeens:




 





 





Quoting marchantmom06:

Do you know the stats of office holders?

House

Membership
435 Members
5 Delegates
1 Resident
Commissioner
Party Divisions
232 Republicans
200 Democrats
0 Independents
3 Vacancies

Then If a majority of the Representatives say or select yes, the bill passes in the U.S. House of Representatives. The bill is then certified by the Clerk of the House and delivered to the U.S. Senate.

Senate

Membership
100 Senators
(Vice President votes in case of a tie)
Party Divisions
52 Democrats
46 Republicans
2 Independents

Then
Senators vote by voice. Those who support the bill say “yea,” and those who oppose it say “nay.” If a majority of the Senators say “yea,” the bill passes in the U.S. Senate and is ready to go to the President.

If no republicans voted it would not have made it out of the house.









Quoting Billiejeens:





 






No that's false.






It "passed" with out a single Republican Vote in either house.






Quoting marchantmom06:

Oh there you go again. Which of the seats do you hold that has you in the meetings? Or are you just assuming anyone is doing anything to uphold the constitution.
You forget these are the same people who passed Obamacare over 3 years ago. And now they want to act concerned to get re elected.

None of those fools are for the American people or they would have voted to not receive their 91 million dollar collective salary.







Quoting SallyMJ:






We have a president and the Senate majority leader who won't negotiate.






And the House doing their Constitutional responsibility under Section 7.






Your point again?






Quoting marchantmom06:

I'm pretty sure we will lose on both anyways. With a president that won't negotiate, and parties only out for themselves, the people are the only ones who get screwed.













 






 






 





 First off we are talking 2009- when the bill passed.





Different makeup at that time.





No Republicans voted "yea" Congress used the reconciliation process to get around the rules, and to negate the vote of Senator Scott Brown who was just elected to replace Ted Kennedy who had finally assumed room temperature.





Take a step back - Look around, learn something, you are embarrassing yourself.





 




 




 



 




 


 



 

JoJoBean8
by Silver Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 12:20 PM

bump

gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 8, 2013 at 6:01 PM
Obstinate was never in question, but as you can see, reluctant is a synonym for recalcitrant: adj unenthusiastic, unwilling prev next afraid Relevance Relevance ranks synonyms and suggests the best matches based on how closely a synonym’s sense matches the sense you selected. A-Z Complexity Complexity sorts synonyms based on their difficulty. Adjust it higher to choose from words that are more complex. - +Length Length ranks your synonyms based on character count. - +listsblocks Common Common words appear frequently in written and spoken language across many genres from radio to academic journals. Informal Informal words should be reserved for casual, colloquial communication. adj unenthusiastic, unwilling Synonyms for reluctant afraid star averse star cautious star circumspect star hesitant star loath star shy star slow star squeamish star uncertain star wary star backward star calculating star chary star demurring star diffident star discouraged star disheartened star disinclined star grudging star hanging back star hesitating star indisposed star involuntary star laggard star opposed star queasy star recalcitrant star remiss star slack star tardy star uneager star
Quoting Farmlady09:

Really?? This is what I get when I google them both.

ob·sti·nate
ˈäbstənit/
adjective
adjective: obstinate
1.
stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
antonyms: compliant
  • (of an unwelcome phenomenon or situation
 
re·luc·tant
riˈləktənt/
adjective
adjective: reluctant
  1. 1.
    unwilling and hesitant; disinclined.
    "she seemed reluctant to discuss the matter"
    synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, unenthusiastic, resistant, resisting, opposed; More


 Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 


 

Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 6:14 PM

Sigh. So, if the president continues to be militantly reluctant to negotiate are you good with the US defaulting ~ and all that goes with it?


Quoting gludwig2000:

Obstinate was never in question, but as you can see, reluctant is a synonym for recalcitrant: adj unenthusiastic, unwilling prev next afraid Relevance Relevance ranks synonyms and suggests the best matches based on how closely a synonym’s sense matches the sense you selected. A-Z Complexity Complexity sorts synonyms based on their difficulty. Adjust it higher to choose from words that are more complex. - +Length Length ranks your synonyms based on character count. - +listsblocks Common Common words appear frequently in written and spoken language across many genres from radio to academic journals. Informal Informal words should be reserved for casual, colloquial communication. adj unenthusiastic, unwilling Synonyms for reluctant afraid star averse star cautious star circumspect star hesitant star loath star shy star slow star squeamish star uncertain star wary star backward star calculating star chary star demurring star diffident star discouraged star disheartened star disinclined star grudging star hanging back star hesitating star indisposed star involuntary star laggard star opposed star queasy star recalcitrant star remiss star slack star tardy star uneager star
Quoting Farmlady09:

Really?? This is what I get when I google them both.

ob·sti·nate
ˈäbstənit/
adjective
adjective: obstinate
1.
stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
antonyms: compliant
  • (of an unwelcome phenomenon or situation
 
re·luc·tant
riˈləktənt/
adjective
adjective: reluctant
  1. 1.
    unwilling and hesitant; disinclined.
    "she seemed reluctant to discuss the matter"
    synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, unenthusiastic, resistant, resisting, opposed; More

 

 Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

DSamuels
by Gold Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 6:17 PM
recalcitrant
— adjective

resisting authority or control; not obedient or compliant; refractory.
hard to deal with, manage, or operate.
------------
It's not reluctant at all. Obstinate is very close, which can be described as stubborn.


Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.


Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.


One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.


Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.




Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:


No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 


 


Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:


Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.



Quoting Billiejeens:

 



Seriously?



Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.



Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.



I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.




 



 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.


 


 




 

Posted on CafeMom Mobile
gludwig2000
by Gina on Oct. 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM
I never said that I was. I want ALL of them to do their jobs, and this whole back and forth between us happened because someone else chose to insult the intelligence of Dems or anyone who supports Obama. On this issue, I don't support his actions, nor do I support the actions of Boehner and just want them to again, do their freaking jobs, but on other issues, yes, I support Obama. See who poorly things end when insults and snark are used instead of respect? And no, I am not talking about or refering to you.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Sigh. So, if the president continues to be militantly reluctant to negotiate are you good with the US defaulting ~ and all that goes with it?


Quoting gludwig2000:

Obstinate was never in question, but as you can see, reluctant is a synonym for recalcitrant: adj unenthusiastic, unwilling prev next afraid Relevance Relevance ranks synonyms and suggests the best matches based on how closely a synonym’s sense matches the sense you selected. A-Z Complexity Complexity sorts synonyms based on their difficulty. Adjust it higher to choose from words that are more complex. - +Length Length ranks your synonyms based on character count. - +listsblocks Common Common words appear frequently in written and spoken language across many genres from radio to academic journals. Informal Informal words should be reserved for casual, colloquial communication. adj unenthusiastic, unwilling Synonyms for reluctant afraid star averse star cautious star circumspect star hesitant star loath star shy star slow star squeamish star uncertain star wary star backward star calculating star chary star demurring star diffident star discouraged star disheartened star disinclined star grudging star hanging back star hesitating star indisposed star involuntary star laggard star opposed star queasy star recalcitrant star remiss star slack star tardy star uneager star
Quoting Farmlady09:

Really?? This is what I get when I google them both.

ob·sti·nate
ˈäbstənit/
adjective
adjective: obstinate
1.
stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
antonyms: compliant
  • (of an unwelcome phenomenon or situation
 
re·luc·tant
riˈləktənt/
adjective
adjective: reluctant
  1. 1.
    unwilling and hesitant; disinclined.
    "she seemed reluctant to discuss the matter"
    synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, unenthusiastic, resistant, resisting, opposed; More

 

 Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 6:38 PM
2 moms liked this

Ok ~ do you consider the House to be doing it's job? They have submitted several budgets, agreed to commit to Obamacare as long as no one gets a waiver, and have tried to remove the most ridiculous closures as well as make sure the military doesn't suffer ~ and at the same time doing the job they were elected to do which is represent their constituents.

Do you consider either the Senate or the president to have been doing their jobs? The Senate and the president have only stated they will not negotiate. Obama went golfing, and the senators couldn't even bother to be there several days. They want a budget that raises taxes and the debt ceiling raised. Once they get that they will all sit down and make nice.


Quoting gludwig2000:

I never said that I was. I want ALL of them to do their jobs, and this whole back and forth between us happened because someone else chose to insult the intelligence of Dems or anyone who supports Obama. On this issue, I don't support his actions, nor do I support the actions of Boehner and just want them to again, do their freaking jobs, but on other issues, yes, I support Obama. See who poorly things end when insults and snark are used instead of respect? And no, I am not talking about or refering to you.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Sigh. So, if the president continues to be militantly reluctant to negotiate are you good with the US defaulting ~ and all that goes with it?

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Obstinate was never in question, but as you can see, reluctant is a synonym for recalcitrant: adj unenthusiastic, unwilling prev next afraid Relevance Relevance ranks synonyms and suggests the best matches based on how closely a synonym’s sense matches the sense you selected. A-Z Complexity Complexity sorts synonyms based on their difficulty. Adjust it higher to choose from words that are more complex. - +Length Length ranks your synonyms based on character count. - +listsblocks Common Common words appear frequently in written and spoken language across many genres from radio to academic journals. Informal Informal words should be reserved for casual, colloquial communication. adj unenthusiastic, unwilling Synonyms for reluctant afraid star averse star cautious star circumspect star hesitant star loath star shy star slow star squeamish star uncertain star wary star backward star calculating star chary star demurring star diffident star discouraged star disheartened star disinclined star grudging star hanging back star hesitating star indisposed star involuntary star laggard star opposed star queasy star recalcitrant star remiss star slack star tardy star uneager star
Quoting Farmlady09:

Really?? This is what I get when I google them both.

ob·sti·nate
ˈäbstənit/
adjective
adjective: obstinate
1.
stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
antonyms: compliant
  • (of an unwelcome phenomenon or situation
 
re·luc·tant
riˈləktənt/
adjective
adjective: reluctant
  1. 1.
    unwilling and hesitant; disinclined.
    "she seemed reluctant to discuss the matter"
    synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, unenthusiastic, resistant, resisting, opposed; More

 

 Quoting gludwig2000:

Funny thing just happened.After feeling a bit like a dumb ass, I decided to look up the word, and guess what? The words are synonyms, which means that they basically mean the same thing. Imagine that.
Quoting Farmlady09:

Reluctant and obstinate are not the same thing. Obstinate is stubborn. Reluctant is hesitant.

One is militantly refusing ~ one is showing doubt or not being eager to do something.

Obama is obstinately uncooperative. There is nothing reluctant or hesitant about his statements or actions.

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

Thanks for the lesson, but it still means reluctant, just to a higher degree, right? See, GED here, and while I couldn't give the exact definition as you did, I did know what the word meant.
Quoting Farmlady09:

No, it means to be obstinately uncooperative ... which is quite a few steps up from reluctant. Libertarian, but leaning towards anarchy. 

 

Quoting gludwig2000:

It means reluctant to do something, right? Obama supporter
Quoting Billiejeens:

Quoting gludwig2000:

Even though the ride on the party bus is free, sometimes you should get off for a bit to get some fresh air. Maybe then you will realize just how insulting your comments really are.


Quoting Billiejeens:

 


Seriously?


Dems are going to think that is some type of slur regarding him not getting his vitamins or something.


Quoting SallyMJ:

The Debt Ceiling is more important.


I hope the Republicans get the Dems to negotiate. Some pundits say O looked better in the first few days, but the longer it drags out, people will realize its O who is being recalcitrant.



 


 





Don't act like any Obama supporter knew what that word means.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Redwall
by Bronze Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 7:01 PM
1 mom liked this

I want both to happen.  I don't want the government to spend any more money that we don't have....  We are in debt up to our eyeballs and beyond.

NC_Mom_06
by on Oct. 8, 2013 at 7:02 PM
2 moms liked this
I say impeach Obama. This government shutdown would have never happened if Obamacare Health crap started. I don't see why it is problem to delay the stupid health care for a year. Obama is trying to control everything. It is his way or no way. I am glad the Republicans are standing their ground. We are being affected by the government shutdown too. My husband works at a shipyard. He receives veterans benefits. I think Obama needs to stop his BS and negotiate with the Republicans. The Republicans and Democrats need to put their differences aside and stop this soon to be default.
Kathy489
by Bronze Member on Oct. 8, 2013 at 7:21 PM
2 moms liked this

 

This is correct. The Republicans have offered solutions, but obuttma won't even come to the table to discuss them. Heck, he won't even come into the room!

Quoting NC_Mom_06:

I say impeach Obama. This government shutdown would have never happened if Obamacare Health crap started. I don't see why it is problem to delay the stupid health care for a year. Obama is trying to control everything. It is his way or no way. I am glad the Republicans are standing their ground. We are being affected by the government shutdown too. My husband works at a shipyard. He receives veterans benefits. I think Obama needs to stop his BS and negotiate with the Republicans. The Republicans and Democrats need to put their differences aside and stop this soon to be default.


 

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