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News & Politics News & Politics

Who really shut down the government??

Posted by on Oct. 13, 2013 at 9:29 PM
  • 29 Replies


Thomas Sowell: Who shut down the government?

Oct. 12, 2013 @ 07:55 PM

Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for Obamacare.
This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives’ right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that congressmen there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

Whether Obamacare is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. But it is a matter of fact that members of the House of Representatives have a right to make spending decisions based on their opinion.
Obamacare is indeed “the law of the land,” as its supporters keep saying, and the Supreme Court has upheld its constitutionality.

But the whole point of having a division of powers within the federal government is that each branch can decide independently what it wants to do or not do, regardless of what the other branches do, when exercising the powers specifically granted to that branch by the Constitution.

The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies — unless they are in an agency that would administer Obamacare.

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who — if anybody — “wants to shut down the government.” But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for Obamacare.
The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for Obamacare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a “clean” bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word “clean” like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Harry Reid everything he wants?

If Sen. Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run Obamacare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.
You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

When Barack Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of “legislation by appropriation” as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out — and articulation has never been their strong suit — the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose.

So - what say you?


by on Oct. 13, 2013 at 9:29 PM
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Replies (1-10):
grandmab125
by Platinum Member on Oct. 13, 2013 at 10:20 PM
1 mom liked this

 Hi.  Welcome to this group.  Most of us in this group say that it is Obama's fault because he refuses to negotiate with the Republicans.  So, whom do you blame?

blondekosmic15
by Blonde on Oct. 14, 2013 at 12:18 AM
2 moms liked this

In terms of message & articulation...gov't scandals under the Obama admin reveals intimidation & preventive measures to suppress the conservative voice prior to elections in 2012. A reason to pause since Obama won re-election by 51%. The Country has lost because Obama is destroying America's economy, unemployment @ 15% or higher when you factor the underemployed & those who've stopped looking for a job. 50% of College grads are unable to find a job in their major. Al-Qaeda & affiliates are strengthening in various regions of the world due to Obama's failed foreign policy & weak leadership. He's divided this Nation more than any President. We reap what we sow. Unfortunately, Americans who knew better not to vote for Barack Obama are suffering the consequences of this guy remaining in the WH for a 2nd term. Our children & grandchildren will bare the heavy burden~

quote from OP>

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out — and articulation has never been their strong suit — the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose.

-Celestial-
by Pepperlynn on Oct. 14, 2013 at 2:21 AM

Republicans need to learn how democracy works.

grandmab125
by Platinum Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 3:57 AM
1 mom liked this

 How many times do we have to tell you, the US is a Republic not a democracy?

REPUBLIC vs. DEMOCRACY



I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


SUMMARY
In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy." I invite you to join me in raising public awareness regarding that distinction.

A republic and a democracy are identical in every aspect except one. In a republic the sovereignty is in each individual person. In a democracy the sovereignty is in the group.

Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]



The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.

Or:

2:58 What is the difference between a republic and a democracy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqAlyEfkLMo - 149k - Cached - Similar pages
Dec 29, 2011 ... Why America is a Republic, not a Democracyby TheIndicrat 12,826 views · 1:00: 06. Watch Later After Words with Andrew Napolitano C-SPAN ...
Quoting -Celestial-:

Republicans need to learn how democracy works.

 

grandma B

MomofHDFandNWF
by on Oct. 14, 2013 at 6:43 AM
1 mom liked this

I would agree with you - I do think that this is primarily Obama's fault.  I do not think Obamacare is the way to go - I do think that our "health system" (ie: primarily health insurae) needs a major overhauling and we need to figure out a better way.  I like the idea of Health Saving Accounts; but don't know everything there is to know about them.

I think shutting down the National Parks is completely rediculous!  It is not the National Parks that are causing the shutdown... if anything one could argue it is the people in Washington.  If anything should be shutdown in this country it should be their salaries and their state of the art fitness center.  We are "paying" everyone in Washington to do their job, their job is not getting done, so why are we still paying them?

Quoting grandmab125:

 Hi.  Welcome to this group.  Most of us in this group say that it is Obama's fault because he refuses to negotiate with the Republicans.  So, whom do you blame?



MomofHDFandNWF
by on Oct. 14, 2013 at 6:57 AM

I live 15 minutes from Acadia National Park... the other day a friend of mine posted this on FB.  She was headed to work and this car was in front of her - trying to turn into Acadia.

Her caption "Oh, I'm sorry... You couldn't visit our beautiful park while here visiting.  You can thank your bumper sticker for that one!"


Clairwil
by Gold Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 7:18 AM
Quoting blondekosmic15:

preventive measures to suppress the conservative voice prior to elections in 2012

What were those?  Do you feel that this was responsible for the election being lost by the conservatives?

Were there no other factors, acting to bias things in the other direction, that evened the playing field?


Clairwil
by Gold Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 7:54 AM
2 moms liked this
Quoting MomofHDFandNWF:

When Barack Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of “legislation by appropriation” as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

So - what say you?

I just looked up the history of “legislation by appropriation".

It is generally used to fund something minor, by adding it as a rider to an unrelated appropriations bill.

Occasionally it has been used to restrict things the president has done by using his executive powers (generally wars or other military actions, in foreign countries) - ie things which were never voted upon by congress in the first place.

I can't find a single example of when a minority party has ever used it to overturn the will of the people by reversing a main centerpiece bit of legislation, that was passed in both houses, signed by the president, ratified by the supreme court, and confirmed by the people who then re-elected the party championing it.


And that isn't what the appropriations process was designed for.   It breaks the fundamental pact of there being a loyal opposition - there being two sides who disagree, but who work together to make the country better.  

It is like a ship, where the oasrmen vote in a new captain each day.  It is ok for a minority group of oarsmen whose choice didn't get in, to grumble that they're going to Island QQQ first then Island RRR, rather than the other way around.   It isn't ok for that minority to grab axes, barricade themselves in the hold, and threaten to sink the ship unless the captain immediately sets sail directly for Island RRR.

MomTiara19
by Silver Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 8:53 AM

So we dont pay our bills until the republicans get what they lost in the election?So we destroy America over it?

ReadWriteLuv
by Member on Oct. 14, 2013 at 9:00 AM

 As a registered Independent, I blame both major parties. However, I have to add that it appears that the Republican party is imploding. They need to get their stuff together and quit squabbling amongst themselves if they really want to "fix" anything.  That, or the Tea Party needs to break off from the Republicans all together, and make America a three party system.

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