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Should a Pro-Abortion Printer be Forced to Print “Abortion is Murder” Signs and Shirts?

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Should a Pro-Abortion Printer be Forced to Print "Abortion is Murder" Signs and Shirts?

Posted on February 25, 2014 by Filed under 1st Amendment, Abortion, Christianity, Constitution, Culture, Ethics, Homosexuality

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The courts have kicked a legal hornet's nest by redefining marriage and forcing people to agree with their decision under threat of fines and possible imprisonment.

Now states are trying to project business owners that do not agree with the redefinition of marriage by passing laws allowing them to refuse service to people of the same sex who want to get married. Consider Arizona's governor Jan Brewer:

"She must decide if she is going to sign into law legislation that would allow business owners, as long as they assert their religious beliefs, to deny service to gay and lesbian customers."

These new legal attempts to fix what the courts broke are getting a lot of attention. They are being portrayed as pro-discrimination laws. Some have described them as similar in kind to 'Jim Crow' laws. Being black is not a behavior or a belief.

Business owners (religious or not) should be able to make their own decisions about who they want to do business with.

Sometimes the best way to explain to people the nature of something is to put the shoe on the other foot. Here are some "what ifs." Babies are Murdered Here

  • What if a print-shop owner holds to a "pro-choice" view on abortion and a pro-life group comes in and wants shirts and signs made that read "Babies are Murdered Here" to use in front of an abortion clinic? Should the owner of the shop be forced to make the shirts and signs?
  • What if a print-shop owner who is homosexual gets an order for shirts and signs that are to read "God Hates Fags"? Should the owner be forced to fill the order under penalty of law?
  • Should a supporter of PETA who owns a print shop be forced to make signs and shirts that read "PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals"?
  • Should a baker be forced to supply cakes to a KKK-themed wedding or birthday party?
  • Should an atheist who owns a print shop be forced to print signs and shirts that read "All Atheists are Going to Hell"?
  • Should a printer be forced to print shirts and signs that read "Hitler Was Right"?
  • Should a photographer be forced to film and photograph a wedding that has a "White Power" or KKK theme?

I suspect that the vast majority of people in America would sympathize with these business owners who were asked to do something contrary to their beliefs that is an advocacy position against those beliefs.

This is quite different from a rabid racist who buys a cake from a baker or wants business cards made for his son's new business venture. In the majority of cases, people who operate businesses don't know the personal views or sexual habits of their customers, and in most cases they don't want to know.

But when someone comes in to advocate for a view that has moral meaning for them, that's a different story.

We may not like the advocacy of this group or that group, but what we should like even less is the government saying how we should advocate for our beliefs.

The above examples would not be prohibited by law. Same-sex sex has special protection under the law. Laws have been written that say a business cannot refuse to support the behavior of people who engage in same-sex relationships and marriage.

This is tyranny of the highest order. The First Amendment was drafted to protect speech, popular or not. My view of unpopular speech and someone else's view of unpopular speech are equally protected. The government may want to stop the propagation of popular speech since to them it's a threat to the establishment.

Academia likes to protect its eggs by keeping out dissent. Global Warming advocates have declared that the "debate is over." Dissent is not only not tolerated; it's not even allowed to speak.


by on Feb. 28, 2014 at 2:53 PM
Replies (41-50):
SallyMJ
by Ruby Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 1:26 PM
3 moms liked this

Because it's indefensible.

That's the point, Teddy.

Quoting slashteddy: Unfortunately, I don't have enough time left in my lunch break to go into all the ways this article is ridiculous. Oh well.


Debrowsky
by Gold Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 3:30 PM
1 mom liked this

 but.... included in the mind of the pro-choice- is killing the baby if the mother or father wanted to.   Just as a reminder-  a pregnant woman has another life inside of her,  not one life we are to be concerned about - TWO lives.  Here's a lovely article that helps clarify the importance of that -second- life in the woman.

Beautiful Photo of Noah, Miscarried at 12 Weeks, Shows Unborn Baby's Humanity

by Sarah Jones Zagorski | Baton Rouge, LA | LifeNews.com | 2/28/14 1:42 PM

Baby Noah died from a spontaneous miscarriage on February 20th, 2014. His mother, Lara, named him Noah because it means "rest" and "peace".

Noah was only 12 weeks and 5 days old when he died. Even though he passed away, his perfectly formed body displays the development of a new human life, the most spectacular miracle on earth.

 babynoah

 From the very start, a preborn human meets all of the criteria needed to establish biological life and secures his place in the human family. The child is metabolizing nutrition, moving, growing, can react to stimuli and contains the genetic potential necessary to reproduce. At only 18 to 22 days old, he begins to circulate his own blood, often times with a blood type unique to that of his mothers. In fact, his tiny heart will beat nearly 54 million times before he is even born.

At six-weeks-old, the child's eyes and eyelids, nose, mouth and tongue have formed and electrical brain activity can be observed. In his first twelve weeks of life, critical systems are set in place, like the circulatory, nervous, and digestive system, and vital organs are not only fully formed, but are beginning to function. Remarkably, the most dramatic changes in a human's development occur during this fragile stage. The science is clear: a unique, distinct human life has begun.

However, these members of the human family are the most marginalized of society. Through abortion, they are killed at a staggering rate of approximately 3,600 deaths a day. Worse yet, these tiny humans cannot speak to defend themselves, and the laws of our land permit their destruction. Without a trail, a jury, or defense, these little lives are extinguished before they even see the light of day.

In America, the most common abortion procedure is the suction curettage abortion. In fact, nearly ninety percent occur before the end of the mothers' first trimester. The abortionist uses a suction machine to remove the child and then uses a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the remaining body parts out of the mothers' uterus.

Many think that this sort of brutality is limited to procedures performed during late abortions. However, this is how ex-abortionist, Dr. Grant Clark, describes first trimester abortions done by suction:

"... That was probably the most difficult part of the abortion procedure with the suction abortions... you had to go through what you suctioned out of the uterus and identify perfectly formed little arms and legs and little hands... the skulls were usually crushed."

In twenty minutes or less, the baby is dead.

In order to move this reality from the abstract to the concrete, sometimes humanity needs a nudge and a reminder of who these children are. We need more than the scientific data, statistics and cold hard facts. Instead, we need empirical evidence to move our emotions and our senses. Sometimes when words are not enough, we need to see what these humans look like. We need a face.

For today, Noah is that face. His age was within range of when the majority of abortions are performed. While all the concrete facts prove their humanity, this image of Noah speaks for itself.

Noah's mother, Lara, said the following about Noah:

 "Even though he only lived for twelve weeks, Noah was special to me. I am blessed that I was able to hold him, to see that he was real. Just like every other mother, this first photo of my child will always be special to me. I am devastated that we lost Noah, but I know that his 12 weeks of life had a purpose. His body reveals the miracle of human life. If he could help show one mother considering abortion the beauty of her child, then our loss would be worth it."

Noah, may you rest in peace. We pray that our nation will see in you the intrinsic value that every human life possesses, no matter how small or frail.




Quoting VoodooVixen: There are other choices as well such as contraceptives, adoption and keeping the child. Pro choice means just that. Leave the woman to make her own decisions on what she doe with her life and her body.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 choice - includes killing babies- pretty much means your for abortion.Pro- life means exclusively saving life of baby.

Quoting Owl_Feather:

I hate the term "pro-abortion". As if thats all they support and encourage. Wat happened to the term "pro-choice"

 

 

Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 3:34 PM
1 mom liked this

 That's their entire argument.

Quoting SallyMJ:

Religion is part of one's philosophy.

You are saying that the pro-abort person has the right to conscience, but not the religious person.

That's inconsistent. People have the same rights in this country regardless of ideology.

Are you suggesting that some people are more equal than others?

Quoting blueforewolf:

 not accepting a job because the words they would be printing would be against their philosophy or disgusting to them is different from the bakers situation because - they are not discriminating against a group because of racial, religious, ethnic, or sexual orientation and therefore it does not apply 

 

The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.
Sometimes the Enemy of my Enemy is just another Enemy.
The trick is to know when.
VoodooVixen
by Bronze Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 3:55 PM
1 mom liked this
It's all in personhood. I elieve personhood comes at viability. Life and death are tricky things that scientist have yet to agree on. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Quoting Debrowsky:

 but.... included in the mind of the pro-choice- is killing the baby if the mother or father wanted to.   Just as a reminder-  a pregnant woman has another life inside of her,  not one life we are to be concerned about - TWO lives.  Here's a lovely article that helps clarify the importance of that -second- life in the woman.


Beautiful Photo of Noah, Miscarried at 12 Weeks, Shows Unborn Baby's Humanity


by Sarah Jones Zagorski | Baton Rouge, LA | LifeNews.com | 2/28/14 1:42 PM


Baby Noah died from a spontaneous miscarriage on February 20th, 2014. His mother, Lara, named him Noah because it means "rest" and "peace".


Noah was only 12 weeks and 5 days old when he died. Even though he passed away, his perfectly formed body displays the development of a new human life, the most spectacular miracle on earth.


 babynoah


 From the very start, a preborn human meets all of the criteria needed to establish biological life and secures his place in the human family. The child is metabolizing nutrition, moving, growing, can react to stimuli and contains the genetic potential necessary to reproduce. At only 18 to 22 days old, he begins to circulate his own blood, often times with a blood type unique to that of his mothers. In fact, his tiny heart will beat nearly 54 million times before he is even born.


At six-weeks-old, the child's eyes and eyelids, nose, mouth and tongue have formed and electrical brain activity can be observed. In his first twelve weeks of life, critical systems are set in place, like the circulatory, nervous, and digestive system, and vital organs are not only fully formed, but are beginning to function. Remarkably, the most dramatic changes in a human's development occur during this fragile stage. The science is clear: a unique, distinct human life has begun.


However, these members of the human family are the most marginalized of society. Through abortion, they are killed at a staggering rate of approximately 3,600 deaths a day. Worse yet, these tiny humans cannot speak to defend themselves, and the laws of our land permit their destruction. Without a trail, a jury, or defense, these little lives are extinguished before they even see the light of day.


In America, the most common abortion procedure is the suction curettage abortion. In fact, nearly ninety percent occur before the end of the mothers' first trimester. The abortionist uses a suction machine to remove the child and then uses a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the remaining body parts out of the mothers' uterus.


Many think that this sort of brutality is limited to procedures performed during late abortions. However, this is how ex-abortionist, Dr. Grant Clark, describes first trimester abortions done by suction:


"... That was probably the most difficult part of the abortion procedure with the suction abortions... you had to go through what you suctioned out of the uterus and identify perfectly formed little arms and legs and little hands... the skulls were usually crushed."


In twenty minutes or less, the baby is dead.


In order to move this reality from the abstract to the concrete, sometimes humanity needs a nudge and a reminder of who these children are. We need more than the scientific data, statistics and cold hard facts. Instead, we need empirical evidence to move our emotions and our senses. Sometimes when words are not enough, we need to see what these humans look like. We need a face.


For today, Noah is that face. His age was within range of when the majority of abortions are performed. While all the concrete facts prove their humanity, this image of Noah speaks for itself.


Noah's mother, Lara, said the following about Noah:


 "Even though he only lived for twelve weeks, Noah was special to me. I am blessed that I was able to hold him, to see that he was real. Just like every other mother, this first photo of my child will always be special to me. I am devastated that we lost Noah, but I know that his 12 weeks of life had a purpose. His body reveals the miracle of human life. If he could help show one mother considering abortion the beauty of her child, then our loss would be worth it."


Noah, may you rest in peace. We pray that our nation will see in you the intrinsic value that every human life possesses, no matter how small or frail.


Quoting VoodooVixen: There are other choices as well such as contraceptives, adoption and keeping the child. Pro choice means just that. Leave the woman to make her own decisions on what she doe with her life and her body.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 choice - includes killing babies- pretty much means your for abortion.Pro- life means exclusively saving life of baby.


Quoting Owl_Feather:

I hate the term "pro-abortion". As if thats all they support and encourage. Wat happened to the term "pro-choice"


 


 

Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 3:56 PM
1 mom liked this

 Good read - Thanks!

Quoting Debrowsky:

 but.... included in the mind of the pro-choice- is killing the baby if the mother or father wanted to.   Just as a reminder-  a pregnant woman has another life inside of her,  not one life we are to be concerned about - TWO lives.  Here's a lovely article that helps clarify the importance of that -second- life in the woman.

Beautiful Photo of Noah, Miscarried at 12 Weeks, Shows Unborn Baby's Humanity

by Sarah Jones Zagorski | Baton Rouge, LA | LifeNews.com | 2/28/14 1:42 PM

Baby Noah died from a spontaneous miscarriage on February 20th, 2014. His mother, Lara, named him Noah because it means "rest" and "peace".

Noah was only 12 weeks and 5 days old when he died. Even though he passed away, his perfectly formed body displays the development of a new human life, the most spectacular miracle on earth.

 babynoah

 From the very start, a preborn human meets all of the criteria needed to establish biological life and secures his place in the human family. The child is metabolizing nutrition, moving, growing, can react to stimuli and contains the genetic potential necessary to reproduce. At only 18 to 22 days old, he begins to circulate his own blood, often times with a blood type unique to that of his mothers. In fact, his tiny heart will beat nearly 54 million times before he is even born.

At six-weeks-old, the child's eyes and eyelids, nose, mouth and tongue have formed and electrical brain activity can be observed. In his first twelve weeks of life, critical systems are set in place, like the circulatory, nervous, and digestive system, and vital organs are not only fully formed, but are beginning to function. Remarkably, the most dramatic changes in a human's development occur during this fragile stage. The science is clear: a unique, distinct human life has begun.

However, these members of the human family are the most marginalized of society. Through abortion, they are killed at a staggering rate of approximately 3,600 deaths a day. Worse yet, these tiny humans cannot speak to defend themselves, and the laws of our land permit their destruction. Without a trail, a jury, or defense, these little lives are extinguished before they even see the light of day.

In America, the most common abortion procedure is the suction curettage abortion. In fact, nearly ninety percent occur before the end of the mothers' first trimester. The abortionist uses a suction machine to remove the child and then uses a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the remaining body parts out of the mothers' uterus.

Many think that this sort of brutality is limited to procedures performed during late abortions. However, this is how ex-abortionist, Dr. Grant Clark, describes first trimester abortions done by suction:

"... That was probably the most difficult part of the abortion procedure with the suction abortions... you had to go through what you suctioned out of the uterus and identify perfectly formed little arms and legs and little hands... the skulls were usually crushed."

In twenty minutes or less, the baby is dead.

In order to move this reality from the abstract to the concrete, sometimes humanity needs a nudge and a reminder of who these children are. We need more than the scientific data, statistics and cold hard facts. Instead, we need empirical evidence to move our emotions and our senses. Sometimes when words are not enough, we need to see what these humans look like. We need a face.

For today, Noah is that face. His age was within range of when the majority of abortions are performed. While all the concrete facts prove their humanity, this image of Noah speaks for itself.

Noah's mother, Lara, said the following about Noah:

 "Even though he only lived for twelve weeks, Noah was special to me. I am blessed that I was able to hold him, to see that he was real. Just like every other mother, this first photo of my child will always be special to me. I am devastated that we lost Noah, but I know that his 12 weeks of life had a purpose. His body reveals the miracle of human life. If he could help show one mother considering abortion the beauty of her child, then our loss would be worth it."

Noah, may you rest in peace. We pray that our nation will see in you the intrinsic value that every human life possesses, no matter how small or frail.

Quoting VoodooVixen: There are other choices as well such as contraceptives, adoption and keeping the child. Pro choice means just that. Leave the woman to make her own decisions on what she doe with her life and her body.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 choice - includes killing babies- pretty much means your for abortion.Pro- life means exclusively saving life of baby.

Quoting Owl_Feather:

I hate the term "pro-abortion". As if thats all they support and encourage. Wat happened to the term "pro-choice"

 

 

 

The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.
Sometimes the Enemy of my Enemy is just another Enemy.
The trick is to know when.
Debrowsky
by Gold Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 4:23 PM
2 moms liked this

life is life and death is death.  you are either alive in the womb or dead.  you can only be a human in the womb.   it isn't that tricky.   people who are making excuses for what they want to do with this life, make it confusing and tricky only to themselves.  that's a lot of innocent lives being mutilated for the excuse of tricky.
we definitely disagree.

Quoting VoodooVixen: It's all in personhood. I elieve personhood comes at viability. Life and death are tricky things that scientist have yet to agree on. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 but.... included in the mind of the pro-choice- is killing the baby if the mother or father wanted to.   Just as a reminder-  a pregnant woman has another life inside of her,  not one life we are to be concerned about - TWO lives.  Here's a lovely article that helps clarify the importance of that -second- life in the woman.

Beautiful Photo of Noah, Miscarried at 12 Weeks, Shows Unborn Baby's Humanity

by Sarah Jones Zagorski | Baton Rouge, LA | LifeNews.com | 2/28/14 1:42 PM

Baby Noah died from a spontaneous miscarriage on February 20th, 2014. His mother, Lara, named him Noah because it means "rest" and "peace".

Noah was only 12 weeks and 5 days old when he died. Even though he passed away, his perfectly formed body displays the development of a new human life, the most spectacular miracle on earth.

 babynoah

 From the very start, a preborn human meets all of the criteria needed to establish biological life and secures his place in the human family. The child is metabolizing nutrition, moving, growing, can react to stimuli and contains the genetic potential necessary to reproduce. At only 18 to 22 days old, he begins to circulate his own blood, often times with a blood type unique to that of his mothers. In fact, his tiny heart will beat nearly 54 million times before he is even born.

At six-weeks-old, the child's eyes and eyelids, nose, mouth and tongue have formed and electrical brain activity can be observed. In his first twelve weeks of life, critical systems are set in place, like the circulatory, nervous, and digestive system, and vital organs are not only fully formed, but are beginning to function. Remarkably, the most dramatic changes in a human's development occur during this fragile stage. The science is clear: a unique, distinct human life has begun.

However, these members of the human family are the most marginalized of society. Through abortion, they are killed at a staggering rate of approximately 3,600 deaths a day. Worse yet, these tiny humans cannot speak to defend themselves, and the laws of our land permit their destruction. Without a trail, a jury, or defense, these little lives are extinguished before they even see the light of day.

In America, the most common abortion procedure is the suction curettage abortion. In fact, nearly ninety percent occur before the end of the mothers' first trimester. The abortionist uses a suction machine to remove the child and then uses a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the remaining body parts out of the mothers' uterus.

Many think that this sort of brutality is limited to procedures performed during late abortions. However, this is how ex-abortionist, Dr. Grant Clark, describes first trimester abortions done by suction:

"... That was probably the most difficult part of the abortion procedure with the suction abortions... you had to go through what you suctioned out of the uterus and identify perfectly formed little arms and legs and little hands... the skulls were usually crushed."

In twenty minutes or less, the baby is dead.

In order to move this reality from the abstract to the concrete, sometimes humanity needs a nudge and a reminder of who these children are. We need more than the scientific data, statistics and cold hard facts. Instead, we need empirical evidence to move our emotions and our senses. Sometimes when words are not enough, we need to see what these humans look like. We need a face.

For today, Noah is that face. His age was within range of when the majority of abortions are performed. While all the concrete facts prove their humanity, this image of Noah speaks for itself.

Noah's mother, Lara, said the following about Noah:

 "Even though he only lived for twelve weeks, Noah was special to me. I am blessed that I was able to hold him, to see that he was real. Just like every other mother, this first photo of my child will always be special to me. I am devastated that we lost Noah, but I know that his 12 weeks of life had a purpose. His body reveals the miracle of human life. If he could help show one mother considering abortion the beauty of her child, then our loss would be worth it."

Noah, may you rest in peace. We pray that our nation will see in you the intrinsic value that every human life possesses, no matter how small or frail.

Quoting VoodooVixen: There are other choices as well such as contraceptives, adoption and keeping the child. Pro choice means just that. Leave the woman to make her own decisions on what she doe with her life and her body.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 choice - includes killing babies- pretty much means your for abortion.Pro- life means exclusively saving life of baby.

Quoting Owl_Feather:

I hate the term "pro-abortion". As if thats all they support and encourage. Wat happened to the term "pro-choice"




KenneMaw
by Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 4:48 PM

Here is why I don't get.  If you are a baker that doesnt' support gay rights or a printer that is pro-abortion, when you get a request for the business, why don't you just give the customer a high price and a long lead time so they will do elsewhere?  

If you are in business, then you should be in business for everyone.  If you can't do that, then you need to revaluate if this is the life you want.   My company sells equipment to companies that I personally do not like and believe in, but it is business.   That may be an easy excuse, but I am OK with it.   If someone uses our equipment to print hateful things or make nasty signs, cakes, etc...then that is on the person ordering those items.   

Debrowsky
by Gold Member on Mar. 5, 2014 at 5:04 PM

You've brought up a good point of business practice.  someone else here who runs a business kindly pointed out how she finds ways to not do business with some people she wants no business with.  You can do that.  but I have a feeling some people for certain services they want, will ask pointed questions as to why.   I guess it's up to each person how far a stand they want to take on important issues, do they want to make a point.  sometimes it's needed and inevitable. 

Quoting KenneMaw:

Here is why I don't get.  If you are a baker that doesnt' support gay rights or a printer that is pro-abortion, when you get a request for the business, why don't you just give the customer a high price and a long lead time so they will do elsewhere?  

If you are in business, then you should be in business for everyone.  If you can't do that, then you need to revaluate if this is the life you want.   My company sells equipment to companies that I personally do not like and believe in, but it is business.   That may be an easy excuse, but I am OK with it.   If someone uses our equipment to print hateful things or make nasty signs, cakes, etc...then that is on the person ordering those items.   


blondekosmic15
by Blonde on Mar. 5, 2014 at 5:44 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting bunnyxlover:

who is pro abortion??

Pro = you are for something. In response to your question...anyone who personally supports abortion or for other women to have an abortion demonstrates pro-abortion. 

blondekosmic15
by Blonde on Mar. 5, 2014 at 5:50 PM
1 mom liked this

2 lives & 2 beating hearts when a woman is pregnant. You may do whatever you like to YOUR body. Your choice but pls wait til the innocent defenseless little baby is born.

Quoting VoodooVixen: There are other choices as well such as contraceptives, adoption and keeping the child. Pro choice means just that. Leave the woman to make her own decisions on what she doe with her life and her body.
Quoting Debrowsky:

 choice - includes killing babies- pretty much means your for abortion.Pro- life means exclusively saving life of baby.

Quoting Owl_Feather:

I hate the term "pro-abortion". As if thats all they support and encourage. Wat happened to the term "pro-choice"



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