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Should a Pro-Abortion Printer be Forced to Print “Abortion is Murder” Signs and Shirts?

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Should a Pro-Abortion Printer be Forced to Print "Abortion is Murder" Signs and Shirts?

Posted on February 25, 2014 by Filed under 1st Amendment, Abortion, Christianity, Constitution, Culture, Ethics, Homosexuality

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The courts have kicked a legal hornet's nest by redefining marriage and forcing people to agree with their decision under threat of fines and possible imprisonment.

Now states are trying to project business owners that do not agree with the redefinition of marriage by passing laws allowing them to refuse service to people of the same sex who want to get married. Consider Arizona's governor Jan Brewer:

"She must decide if she is going to sign into law legislation that would allow business owners, as long as they assert their religious beliefs, to deny service to gay and lesbian customers."

These new legal attempts to fix what the courts broke are getting a lot of attention. They are being portrayed as pro-discrimination laws. Some have described them as similar in kind to 'Jim Crow' laws. Being black is not a behavior or a belief.

Business owners (religious or not) should be able to make their own decisions about who they want to do business with.

Sometimes the best way to explain to people the nature of something is to put the shoe on the other foot. Here are some "what ifs." Babies are Murdered Here

  • What if a print-shop owner holds to a "pro-choice" view on abortion and a pro-life group comes in and wants shirts and signs made that read "Babies are Murdered Here" to use in front of an abortion clinic? Should the owner of the shop be forced to make the shirts and signs?
  • What if a print-shop owner who is homosexual gets an order for shirts and signs that are to read "God Hates Fags"? Should the owner be forced to fill the order under penalty of law?
  • Should a supporter of PETA who owns a print shop be forced to make signs and shirts that read "PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals"?
  • Should a baker be forced to supply cakes to a KKK-themed wedding or birthday party?
  • Should an atheist who owns a print shop be forced to print signs and shirts that read "All Atheists are Going to Hell"?
  • Should a printer be forced to print shirts and signs that read "Hitler Was Right"?
  • Should a photographer be forced to film and photograph a wedding that has a "White Power" or KKK theme?

I suspect that the vast majority of people in America would sympathize with these business owners who were asked to do something contrary to their beliefs that is an advocacy position against those beliefs.

This is quite different from a rabid racist who buys a cake from a baker or wants business cards made for his son's new business venture. In the majority of cases, people who operate businesses don't know the personal views or sexual habits of their customers, and in most cases they don't want to know.

But when someone comes in to advocate for a view that has moral meaning for them, that's a different story.

We may not like the advocacy of this group or that group, but what we should like even less is the government saying how we should advocate for our beliefs.

The above examples would not be prohibited by law. Same-sex sex has special protection under the law. Laws have been written that say a business cannot refuse to support the behavior of people who engage in same-sex relationships and marriage.

This is tyranny of the highest order. The First Amendment was drafted to protect speech, popular or not. My view of unpopular speech and someone else's view of unpopular speech are equally protected. The government may want to stop the propagation of popular speech since to them it's a threat to the establishment.

Academia likes to protect its eggs by keeping out dissent. Global Warming advocates have declared that the "debate is over." Dissent is not only not tolerated; it's not even allowed to speak.


by on Feb. 28, 2014 at 2:53 PM
Replies (81-85):
Ziva65
by Bronze Member on Mar. 7, 2014 at 12:43 AM

 Oh no, it's totally fine. I do think we agree on things completely. I didn't mean to say you were offensive in any way.

***I try to qualify my statements on here, because I think openly condemning in general (like general broad Christian statements that I see on CM) are more damaging to the cause than the goal. I try to dissassociate myself from those. Not you :)

Quoting Ednarooni160:

 

Quoting Ziva65:

it was pretty different. I really couldn't not go. I ran a large hospital department and it was an employee who really wanted me to go. Everyone knew I was a conservative Baptist too- it was REALLY different being there. It would have been a bad statement on my part not to show up.

But, they really appreciated me being there. They full well knew I didn't approve of the whole thing. My heart goes out to them though, because where I worked, most of the people had been cut off from their families, and really didn't have a strong social network other than each other.

I have a hard time to with my friends brother, and his partner with 2 little kids, but, it's the world today. I won't condemn them, because I'm no better. Given the choice, I'd still choose some of our gay friends over heterosexuals I know.  I could go on and on, but won't, not the right forum here. I likely agree with you on things. 

Quoting Ednarooni160:

 

Quoting Ziva65:

 

Quoting Ednarooni160:

 

Quoting Ziva65:

I don't understand why someone would be so bold as to say why they are refusing service to someone... it's just offensive. That to me is also really bad for business... I may not agree with someone, but I wouldn't intentionally offend them.

Quoting Debrowsky:

 

Quoting Ziva65:

The thing is, there are ways to refuse business to someone without stating why- "we can't meet that need", "we are booked up that weekend", "we are short staffed" "we can't meet your deadline"... whatever it is. I've seen people delay in giving answers to the point where the customer takes their business elsewhere... there are ways without offending someone or making an issue of it.

While I won't say what line of business we are in, I have refused customers for various reasons. It might be as simple as being given a heads up they don't pay their bills, or using foul language in front of me... would I ever say that? No. We simply find a cordial reason that we are unable to meet that request.

 I really appreciate your perspective from the business side.  you seem to have good sense.

 

Ziva..the Oregon baker did the gay person's mother's wedding cake...  What do you do when someone comes in and says.."I want a cake around such and such time"..and then the baker agrees and "then" finds out it's for a gay wedding... Just a scenerio..but I'm sure it can happen.

I get what you are saying. And it could easily happen.

I'd bake it anyway.

I'm a conservative Christian too- I see that we are in the world but not of the world.  I guess for me I wouldn't screen every single customer to determine if they meet my requirement or not. Oh my gosh, I think about some of my customers- gay couples, far more pleasant than some others.... I work with geriatrics, and some kids are relaly hateful to their parents, shockingly hateful, but I still give them service. It's like where would I draw the line, then I might as well not be in business, or not work with the public.

I don't personally believe that I am guilty of their sin by doing a service for that person. I'd given care to a gay man, who I know will go right out and keep doing what he is doing, or a prostitute...I've gone to a gay wedding- doesn't mean I am sinning as I think they are...

Our church had a lady request to borrow chairs for her sons gay wedding... well, the church figured it out and wasn't in agreement. Technically they were being borrowed by a church member... the church then decided it would no longer loan out chairs...It's a tough one...

Yes, it is tough..I do not disrespect anyone unless they give me reason not to..and since you were honest, I want to be also.., I probably wouldn't go to a gay wedding..and I could LIKE/LOVE the people attending, it would just hurt me to bear witness to it.

 

.I'm not judging you..please don't think that..just wanted to be honest with you..like you were with me..  :  )  I grew up with Liberace and as a child I just LOVED him..felt good listening to him..and watching him.. You and I both know Jesus came to save not to destroy.. : )

 

Ednarooni160
by Eds on Mar. 7, 2014 at 12:46 AM
1 mom liked this


Quoting Ziva65:

 Oh no, it's totally fine. I do think we agree on things completely. I didn't mean to say you were offensive in any way.

***I try to qualify my statements on here, because I think openly condemning in general (like general broad Christian statements that I see on CM) are more damaging to the cause than the goal. I try to dissassociate myself from those. Not you :)

Quoting Ednarooni160:


Quoting Ziva65:

it was pretty different. I really couldn't not go. I ran a large hospital department and it was an employee who really wanted me to go. Everyone knew I was a conservative Baptist too- it was REALLY different being there. It would have been a bad statement on my part not to show up.

But, they really appreciated me being there. They full well knew I didn't approve of the whole thing. My heart goes out to them though, because where I worked, most of the people had been cut off from their families, and really didn't have a strong social network other than each other.

I have a hard time to with my friends brother, and his partner with 2 little kids, but, it's the world today. I won't condemn them, because I'm no better. Given the choice, I'd still choose some of our gay friends over heterosexuals I know.  I could go on and on, but won't, not the right forum here. I likely agree with you on things. 

Quoting Ednarooni160:


Quoting Ziva65:


Quoting Ednarooni160:


Quoting Ziva65:

I don't understand why someone would be so bold as to say why they are refusing service to someone... it's just offensive. That to me is also really bad for business... I may not agree with someone, but I wouldn't intentionally offend them.

Quoting Debrowsky:


Quoting Ziva65:

The thing is, there are ways to refuse business to someone without stating why- "we can't meet that need", "we are booked up that weekend", "we are short staffed" "we can't meet your deadline"... whatever it is. I've seen people delay in giving answers to the point where the customer takes their business elsewhere... there are ways without offending someone or making an issue of it.

While I won't say what line of business we are in, I have refused customers for various reasons. It might be as simple as being given a heads up they don't pay their bills, or using foul language in front of me... would I ever say that? No. We simply find a cordial reason that we are unable to meet that request.

 I really appreciate your perspective from the business side.  you seem to have good sense.


Ziva..the Oregon baker did the gay person's mother's wedding cake...  What do you do when someone comes in and says.."I want a cake around such and such time"..and then the baker agrees and "then" finds out it's for a gay wedding... Just a scenerio..but I'm sure it can happen.

I get what you are saying. And it could easily happen.

I'd bake it anyway.

I'm a conservative Christian too- I see that we are in the world but not of the world.  I guess for me I wouldn't screen every single customer to determine if they meet my requirement or not. Oh my gosh, I think about some of my customers- gay couples, far more pleasant than some others.... I work with geriatrics, and some kids are relaly hateful to their parents, shockingly hateful, but I still give them service. It's like where would I draw the line, then I might as well not be in business, or not work with the public.

I don't personally believe that I am guilty of their sin by doing a service for that person. I'd given care to a gay man, who I know will go right out and keep doing what he is doing, or a prostitute...I've gone to a gay wedding- doesn't mean I am sinning as I think they are...

Our church had a lady request to borrow chairs for her sons gay wedding... well, the church figured it out and wasn't in agreement. Technically they were being borrowed by a church member... the church then decided it would no longer loan out chairs...It's a tough one...

Yes, it is tough..I do not disrespect anyone unless they give me reason not to..and since you were honest, I want to be also.., I probably wouldn't go to a gay wedding..and I could LIKE/LOVE the people attending, it would just hurt me to bear witness to it.


.I'm not judging you..please don't think that..just wanted to be honest with you..like you were with me..  :  )  I grew up with Liberace and as a child I just LOVED him..felt good listening to him..and watching him.. You and I both know Jesus came to save not to destroy.. : )


I feel the same way about you..I always love reading your replies. : )

Matthew 6:24

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

cakklove
by Member on Mar. 7, 2014 at 12:54 AM

I don't think they should be forced.  Any private business she be allowed the right to refuse service.  It's their private business.  Why would someone the owner is judgmental against want to use their services after knowing it's forced and they aren't really welcome?

Billiejeens
by Ruby Member on Mar. 7, 2014 at 8:30 AM

BUMP!

Debrowsky
by Gold Member on Mar. 7, 2014 at 10:02 AM

Control

Quoting cakklove:

I don't think they should be forced.  Any private business she be allowed the right to refuse service.  It's their private business.  Why would someone the owner is judgmental against want to use their services after knowing it's forced and they aren't really welcome?


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