Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

10: The complete lack of solid evidence for God's existence.

Posted by on Jul. 11, 2012 at 7:43 AM
  • 48 Replies
  • 867 Total Views
1 mom liked this

From: "The Top 10 Reasons I Don't Believe in God" by Greta Christina

__________________________________________________________________



10: The complete lack of solid evidence for God's existence.

This is probably the best argument I have against God's existence: There's no evidence for it. No good evidence, anyway. No evidence that doesn't just amount to opinion and tradition and confirmation bias and all the other stuff I've been talking about. No evidence that doesn't fall apart upon close examination.

And in a perfect world, that should have been the only argument I needed. In a perfect world, I shouldn't have had to spend a month and a half collating and summarizing the reasons I don't believe in God, any more than I would have for Zeus or Quetzalcoatl or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As thousands of atheists before me have pointed out: It is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is up to theists to prove that he does.

In a comment on my blog, arensb made a point on this topic that was so insightful, I'm still smacking myself on the head for not having thought of it myself. I was writing about how believers get upset at atheists when we reject religion after hearing 876,363 bad arguments for it, and how believers react to this by saying, "But you haven't considered Argument #876,364! How can you be so close-minded?" And arensb said:

"If, in fact, it turns out that argument #876,364 is the one that will convince you, WTF didn't the apologists put it in the top 10?"

Why, indeed?

If there's an argument for religion that's convincing -- actually convincing, convincing by means of something other than authority, tradition, personal intuition, confirmation bias, fear and intimidation, wishful thinking, or some combination of the above -- wouldn't we all know about it?

Wouldn't it have spread like wildfire? Wouldn't it be the Meme of All Memes? I mean, we all saw that Simon's Cat video within about two weeks of it hitting the Internet. Don't you think that the Truly Excellent Argument for God's Existence would have spread even faster, and wider, than some silly cartoon cat video?

If the arguments for religion are so wonderful, why are they so unconvincing to anyone who doesn't already believe?

And why does God need arguments, anyway? Why does God need people to make his arguments for him? Why can't he just reveal his true self, clearly and unequivocally, and settle the question once and for all? If God existed, why wouldn't it just be obvious?

It is not up to atheists to prove that God does not exist. It is up to believers to prove that he does. And in the absence of any good, solid evidence or arguments in favor of God's existence -- and in the presence of a whole lot of solid arguments against it -- I will continue to be an atheist. God almost certainly does not exist, and it's completely reasonable to act as if he doesn't.

by on Jul. 11, 2012 at 7:43 AM
Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Replies (1-10):
butlerro1013
by Member on Jul. 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM

If you replace "God" with something else, I think the point is more obvious.

The invisible pink unicorn created the world in 7 days. The invisible pink unicorn loves you with all it marshmallow heart.

Everybody in his right mind would now ask for evidence. Which does not exist because the invisible pink unicorn is made up. 

Clairwil
by Group Owner on Jul. 11, 2012 at 9:23 AM
Quoting butlerro1013:

If you replace "God" with something else, I think the point is more obvious.

The invisible pink unicorn created the world in 7 days. The invisible pink unicorn loves you with all it marshmallow heart.

Everybody in his right mind would now ask for evidence. Which does not exist because the invisible pink unicorn is made up. 

I imagine some people will be saying "Ah, but there isn't a book claiming TIU (The Invisible Unicorn) love you."

Have you ever considered internet memes?

The ones that spread strongly and stay around for years often have convincing details and make strong claims that they are true.   And you can trace versions of these stories back through the archives, and work out in which year particular details got added to the story, stripping off the details and strength of claim until you eventually arrive back at an original tale (which is either a true story but nothing like as dramatic as claimed or, more often, an intentional fiction, not intended to deceive but used as a teaching story or parable).

If you've read the one about Einstein debating a college profession while still a student, about darkness, cold and evil, that's a good case in point.

Another example is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which was originally not about Jews at all, but was aimed at an entirely different group.

You do, in fact, all through history, have multiple examples of documents which people end up sincerely believing to be true accounts of real events, which on later investigation, turn out to have been shaped over time and in fact bear little relationship to what actually happened.

Indeed, you see this in politics, with conflicting accounts of what happened in demonstrations.   You see this today in the accounts from Syria, about whether it was the Army or the Rebels dressed in army uniforms, who did certain terrible deeds.


Just having a book that claims to be true, is no evidence that it is actually true.

PeeperSqueak
by on Jul. 11, 2012 at 9:29 AM
1 mom liked this

I don't have the time or patience to read this....but just the first few sentences tell me enough......along with the title of the thread.

I don't know if the OP can see....(but then even blind people can see) or not but evidence of God's existence is everywhere. Maybe some just don't want to see ?

The moon, stars, the wind, trees, grass, birds flying.....and the list goes on and on.

Have a good day

Clairwil
by Group Owner on Jul. 11, 2012 at 9:42 AM
Quoting PeeperSqueak:

evidence of God's existence is everywhere.

The moon, stars, the wind, trees, grass, birds flying

How exactly is the moon evidence of the existence of the hypothesised supreme creator deity of the Christians?

butlerro1013
by Member on Jul. 11, 2012 at 9:43 AM

You say that this is evidence of God, that is your personal belief.  Where is the proof that God actually did these things you claim to be true?

Quoting PeeperSqueak:

I don't have the time or patience to read this....but just the first few sentences tell me enough......along with the title of the thread.

I don't know if the OP can see....(but then even blind people can see) or not but evidence of God's existence is everywhere. Maybe some just don't want to see ?

The moon, stars, the wind, trees, grass, birds flying.....and the list goes on and on.

Have a good day


Clairwil
by Group Owner on Jul. 11, 2012 at 9:44 AM
Quoting PeeperSqueak:

I don't have the time or patience to read this....but just the first few sentences tell me enough.

Would you be happy if the atheists you are trying to testify to were to reject unread all your posts, after reading only the first few sentences?

Earn courtesy by proffering it.   Have not we responded to your long posts in detail?

jcribb16
by on Jul. 11, 2012 at 3:23 PM

You've already made up your mind what you choose to believe or not believe.  That's your choice.  We, as Christians, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, do not have to prove God to anyone.  His creation, perfection, and how everything goes together and works together is obvious for anyone to see.  I choose to believe in Intelligent Design as opposed to some big explosion happening all by itself with no intelligence behind the perfection that was made. 

This group is a disappointment, in that, instead of discussing, and gaining knowledge and perspective from both sides, it is totally placing Christianity on the defense all the way around.  You have made your final judgment of God not existing - it matters not what any Christian says at this point - you will not accept anything but what you think.  That's fine - it's your choice.  I have my faith in my Lord, based on the above mentioned with Intelligent Design, God's Word, history, Jesus's sacrifice on that cross for us who believe on His Father, and other than that, I do not have to explain myself like I'm in a courtroom. 

Have a nice day.

butlerro1013
by Member on Jul. 11, 2012 at 3:49 PM


Quoting jcribb16:

You've already made up your mind what you choose to believe or not believe.  That's your choice.  We, as Christians, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, do not have to prove God to anyone.  His creation, perfection, and how everything goes together and works together is obvious for anyone to see.  I choose to believe in Intelligent Design as opposed to some big explosion happening all by itself with no intelligence behind the perfection that was made. 

This group is a disappointment, in that, instead of discussing, and gaining knowledge and perspective from both sides, it is totally placing Christianity on the defense all the way around.  You have made your final judgment of God not existing - it matters not what any Christian says at this point - you will not accept anything but what you think.  That's fine - it's your choice.  I have my faith in my Lord, based on the above mentioned with Intelligent Design, God's Word, history, Jesus's sacrifice on that cross for us who believe on His Father, and other than that, I do not have to explain myself like I'm in a courtroom. 

Have a nice day.

You're making the affirmative claim ("God exists"). Therefore the burden of proof lies on you. All atheists are doing is saying "we don't believe your claim". They have nothing to prove. 

BTW, your courtroom scenario is backwards. An accused individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies on the prosecution. They're claiming the accused is guilty. They have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the accused is guilty. 

If I were to tell you "I have an invisible unicorn in my backyard" you'd say "I don't believe you". If I demanded you obey the rules set forth by my invisible unicorn, because my Unicorn Bible says you must do so, you'd be within your rights to demand proof of my invisible unicorn. The burden of proof would be on me, since I was making the affirmative claim. 

I'm sorry if you feel put on the defensive, but xtians are, in fact, the ones making a claim.  We don't have delusions that either side will change their mind, but we are having a discussion.  A discussion in which your group is making a claim.  Honestly, your response doesn't surprise me.  Faith is the only explanation you can give, and it is far from proof.

ETA: I would encourage you to find out more information about the Big Bang Theory and the scientific origins of the Universe.  Neil Degrasse Tyson is a great place to start.

jcribb16
by on Jul. 11, 2012 at 4:21 PM

I've already studied that.  I still say Intelligent Design by a Creator is more believable because of the perfections of the way everything was created and works together in harmony. 

These posts and threads, in here, are set up against Christianity - that is extremely obvious.  I was led to believe, before signing up, that it would be a group for both sides to discuss both views.  Instead, the Christians are the ones placed on "trial" and that is unfair.  A Christian does not have to or need to prove God to anyone - I gave you my reasons already for why I believe in God.  You both have indeed closed ranks on the Christianity end of it with your "final" judgements.  Unless I, as a Christian, am shown solid evidence He doesn't exist, then I will remain a Christian.

Quoting butlerro1013:


Quoting jcribb16:

You've already made up your mind what you choose to believe or not believe.  That's your choice.  We, as Christians, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, do not have to prove God to anyone.  His creation, perfection, and how everything goes together and works together is obvious for anyone to see.  I choose to believe in Intelligent Design as opposed to some big explosion happening all by itself with no intelligence behind the perfection that was made. 

This group is a disappointment, in that, instead of discussing, and gaining knowledge and perspective from both sides, it is totally placing Christianity on the defense all the way around.  You have made your final judgment of God not existing - it matters not what any Christian says at this point - you will not accept anything but what you think.  That's fine - it's your choice.  I have my faith in my Lord, based on the above mentioned with Intelligent Design, God's Word, history, Jesus's sacrifice on that cross for us who believe on His Father, and other than that, I do not have to explain myself like I'm in a courtroom. 

Have a nice day.

You're making the affirmative claim ("God exists"). Therefore the burden of proof lies on you. All atheists are doing is saying "we don't believe your claim". They have nothing to prove. 

BTW, your courtroom scenario is backwards. An accused individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies on the prosecution. They're claiming the accused is guilty. They have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the accused is guilty. 

If I were to tell you "I have an invisible unicorn in my backyard" you'd say "I don't believe you". If I demanded you obey the rules set forth by my invisible unicorn, because my Unicorn Bible says you must do so, you'd be within your rights to demand proof of my invisible unicorn. The burden of proof would be on me, since I was making the affirmative claim. 

I'm sorry if you feel put on the defensive, but xtians are, in fact, the ones making a claim.  We don't have delusions that either side will change their mind, but we are having a discussion.  A discussion in which your group is making a claim.  Honestly, your response doesn't surprise me.  Faith is the only explanation you can give, and it is far from proof.

ETA: I would encourage you to find out more information about the Big Bang Theory and the scientific origins of the Universe.  Neil Degrasse Tyson is a great place to start.


Clairwil
by Group Owner on Jul. 11, 2012 at 4:29 PM
Quoting jcribb16:

This group is a disappointment, in that, instead of discussing, and gaining knowledge and perspective from both sides, it is totally placing Christianity on the defense all the way around. 

The threads:

Letter to Michelle Obama

Question for athiest

were ones putting atheists on the defensive.  As indeed was the first thread in the group (the Christian poster decided to delete the thread, when her curiosity was satified).


The group is intended to have a mix of threads, from both sides.   It is a place for Christians to testify to Atheists, and for Atheists to testify to Christians.

Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)