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Natural Birth & Parenting Natural Birth & Parenting
Replies (61-65):
orangeshirt
by on Aug. 31, 2012 at 8:02 PM
1 mom liked this
Plus, in areas of the world that experience high rates of HIV such as Africa, not breastfeeding could lead to major malnourishment for babies. We aren't talking about places where women can just search for donor milk on FB or run to WIC or Walmart to stock up on Goodstart.


Quoting tabi_cat1023:

It drastically reduces and comes close to eliminating the risks. It does not make it risk free, but wth is risk free? Moms need all the info out there to make educated choices for their child. For most moms it would be formula risks which are much higher imho over the small risk of hiv passing. Keep in mind baby already had the risk during pregnancy




Quoting anime.princess:

Wow, you sure want to find a way to prove that you're right even when you aren't.  You should say that taking antiretroviral medications REDUCES the chance, but it will not eliminate it.  Why is that hard to understand it?



Quoting MaryJarrett:

What if those 95% are the ones who suffers necrotising enterocolitis, asthma attack, SIDs, childhood leukemia, chronic ear infections, eczema, upper respiratory infections, diabetes, etc from being *unnecessarily* formula fed?


Why consider not breastfeeding a safe method? It is not risk free to skip out on mother's own milk. It is worth it to weigh the risks (5%) vs the benefit (95%).





Now I realize you aren't jumping straight to formula, as the child could get donor milk. That would be *great*, but the advantages of getting mothers own milk should never be discredited, especially when it is the best practice advice from the largest medical organization. The WHO lists the hierarchy of infant feed as (1) mother's milk from mother's breast (2) mother's milk in any way (3) human milk any way (4 and lastly) formula.


But look at how hard it is to get human milk. Use and popularity of donor milk has gone up dramatically lately, but it's still not enough as of yet.






Quoting anime.princess:

What about that less than 5%? It can still pass. 




Quoting MaryJarrett:

*Below* 5%. :) Let's read all of it.  

You are saying it *will* still pass. That IS false. It has a 95% chance of NOT passing. I said that in my post (which is probably where you are getting it from since you seem not so keen on checking).

That is your opinion that it isn't worth it.

Based on all the potential risks of formula usage, it would be my opinion (which is supported by the World Health Organization as linked below) to breastfeed. I tend to stick with the pros on this stuff. Best practice advice based in facts and studies, not on myths and old ill conceived theories. There are a lot of myths in the realm of pathology, especially the pathology of something misunderstood as HIV/AIDs. A lot of people believe that HIV and AIDs are the same thing, but you can have HIV for years without having AIDs. AIDs is only when your CD4 drops below 200. We're here to spread the most recent developments in the breastfeeding world. What you are saying is outdated and untrue. Good luck to you! :)  

Quoting anime.princess:

It is not 100% safe anyways; 95% safe, perhaps but not worth the risk.  It will still pass, regardless of the medication taken.   Looks like that part of the article YOU didn't read it.




Quoting MaryJarrett:

Did you read it? They are being treated with antiretroviral medications. These medications are also past through the breastmilk, which combines with breastmilk's natural ability to fight diseases. The recommendation before this was for mothers with HIV/AIDs to breastfeed exclusively for 6 months, then once solids were introduced to switch to formula. That goes along the same basis that breastmilk does help STOP the virus. Those studies showed that as long as the baby was only recieving mothers milk the baby was protected. This recent study has shown that even once solids are introduced the baby is still protected.
Not treated mothers transfer rates to children are between 15-45%. Treated mothers transfer rates are below 5%. It is fairly safe to breast feed with HIV/AIDs.
Not only that but scientists are researching ways to heat treat human milk so that it will be free of diseases, including HIV/AIDs. This is still new and in testing stages. I pray that it works. Yes, it will kill some of the goodness of the human milk BUT it would be just the same as scorching milk with excess lipase to prevent breakdown during storage. Still better nutritionally that formula, so to say.   

Also, you mention Hepatitis, there are multiple strains for Hep. Here is what WHO has to say on Hep B. 

:
"Risk of transmission by breastfeeding 




Breastfeeding has been suggested as an additional mechanism by which infants may acquire 




HBV infection, because small amounts of Hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) have been 




detected in some samples of breastmilk. However, there is no evidence that breastfeeding 




increases the risk of mother to child transmission. A follow up study of 147 infants born to 




mothers known to be carriers of HBV in Taiwan (4) found similar rates of HBV infection in 92 




children who were breastfed compared to 55 who were bottle fed. A study in Britain, involving 




126 subjects, also showed no additional risk for breastfed versus non breastfed infants of carrier 




mothers (5). This study included the measurement of HBeAg status of the mothers, but found no 




association between maternal e-antigen status and transmission rates. These findings suggest 




strongly that any risk of transmission associated with breastmilk is negligible compared to the 




high risk of exposure to maternal blood and body fluids at birth. Experts on hepatitis, however, 




do have concerns that breast pathology such as cracked or bleeding nipples or lesions with serous 




exudates could expose the infant to infectious doses of HBV. " 



 

Quoting anime.princess:

The virus can be passed throught the milk.  I don't know how the fuck they came up with those studies.  




Quoting MaryJarrett:

So the World Health Organization recommending that even mother's with HIV/AIDs breastfeed is what?







http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2009/world_aids_20091130/en/index.html











"In 2006, WHO recommended that ARVs be provided to HIV-positive pregnant women in the third trimester (beginning at 28 weeks) to prevent mother-to-child transmission of HIV. At the time, there was insufficient evidence on the protective effect of ARVs during breastfeeding. Since then, several clinical trials have shown the efficacy of ARVs in preventing transmission to the infant while breastfeeding. The 2009 recommendations promote the use of ARVs earlier in pregnancy, starting at 14 weeks and continuing through the end of the breastfeeding period.







WHO now recommends that breastfeeding continue until the infant is 12 months of age, provided the HIV-positive mother or baby is taking ARVs during that period. This will reduce the risk of HIV transmission and improve the infant's chance of survival.







"In the new recommendations, we are sending a clear message that breastfeeding is a good option for every baby, even those with HIV-positive mothers, when they have access to ARVs," said Daisy Mafubelu, WHO's Assistant Director General for Family and Community Health."











Quoting anime.princess:

None of those outlets are reliable sources.  Just pick a basic biology book that talks about viruses.  Don't try to feed me with your lack of knowledge.  





Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Not according to UNC CHapel Hill's recent studies

http://www.naturalnews.com/036382_breast_milk_AIDS_HIV.html

http://now.msn.com/breast-milk-has-superpowers-even-you-didnt-realize

This is current research from reliable sources





Quoting anime.princess:

You're are sooooo wrong.  That virus passes through the milk; it is not destroyed.  





Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Actually its being shown that bfing with hiv can protect babies..that bm kills the virus so i dunno there














Quoting anime.princess:

That's good, as long as she's not HIV+ or has Hepatits. 

















Posted on CafeMom Mobile
MaryJarrett
by Silver Member on Aug. 31, 2012 at 8:35 PM
3 moms liked this
It's not about being right and wrong. It's about what would be most beneficial for babies. I think that is what you are missing. The most current information states that it is most beneficial for babies born to HIV/AIDs mothers to be breast fed. Period. End of story. The recommendations never promise ultimate protection even without HIV/AIDs.

Could you highlight/underline/color change where I stated that it eliminates the risks, because that is not what I said. You misread, misunderstood, didn't read at all, or something with that assumption, just like you assume that it is better not to breastfeed. Your opinion that it is not OK to breastfeed with these diseases is misguided at best. Your failure to take the recommendations as they are further shows your lack of understanding. You seem to want to make this about me and you when it is not. It is about spreading the current information so all can know. I'm not sure why you are so upset about with advancement. It's a good thing.


Quoting anime.princess:

Wow, you sure want to find a way to prove that you're right even when you aren't.  You should say that taking antiretroviral medications REDUCES the chance, but it will not eliminate it.  Why is that hard to understand it?


Quoting MaryJarrett:

What if those 95% are the ones who suffers necrotising enterocolitis, asthma attack, SIDs, childhood leukemia, chronic ear infections, eczema, upper respiratory infections, diabetes, etc from being *unnecessarily* formula fed?

Why consider not breastfeeding a safe method? It is not risk free to skip out on mother's own milk. It is worth it to weigh the risks (5%) vs the benefit (95%).



Now I realize you aren't jumping straight to formula, as the child could get donor milk. That would be *great*, but the advantages of getting mothers own milk should never be discredited, especially when it is the best practice advice from the largest medical organization. The WHO lists the hierarchy of infant feed as (1) mother's milk from mother's breast (2) mother's milk in any way (3) human milk any way (4 and lastly) formula.

But look at how hard it is to get human milk. Use and popularity of donor milk has gone up dramatically lately, but it's still not enough as of yet.




Quoting anime.princess:

What about that less than 5%? It can still pass. 



Quoting MaryJarrett:

*Below* 5%. :) Let's read all of it.  

You are saying it *will* still pass. That IS false. It has a 95% chance of NOT passing. I said that in my post (which is probably where you are getting it from since you seem not so keen on checking).

That is your opinion that it isn't worth it.

Based on all the potential risks of formula usage, it would be my opinion (which is supported by the World Health Organization as linked below) to breastfeed. I tend to stick with the pros on this stuff. Best practice advice based in facts and studies, not on myths and old ill conceived theories. There are a lot of myths in the realm of pathology, especially the pathology of something misunderstood as HIV/AIDs. A lot of people believe that HIV and AIDs are the same thing, but you can have HIV for years without having AIDs. AIDs is only when your CD4 drops below 200. We're here to spread the most recent developments in the breastfeeding world. What you are saying is outdated and untrue. Good luck to you! :)  

Quoting anime.princess:

It is not 100% safe anyways; 95% safe, perhaps but not worth the risk.  It will still pass, regardless of the medication taken.   Looks like that part of the article YOU didn't read it.



Quoting MaryJarrett:

Did you read it? They are being treated with antiretroviral medications. These medications are also past through the breastmilk, which combines with breastmilk's natural ability to fight diseases. The recommendation before this was for mothers with HIV/AIDs to breastfeed exclusively for 6 months, then once solids were introduced to switch to formula. That goes along the same basis that breastmilk does help STOP the virus. Those studies showed that as long as the baby was only recieving mothers milk the baby was protected. This recent study has shown that even once solids are introduced the baby is still protected.
Not treated mothers transfer rates to children are between 15-45%. Treated mothers transfer rates are below 5%. It is fairly safe to breast feed with HIV/AIDs.
Not only that but scientists are researching ways to heat treat human milk so that it will be free of diseases, including HIV/AIDs. This is still new and in testing stages. I pray that it works. Yes, it will kill some of the goodness of the human milk BUT it would be just the same as scorching milk with excess lipase to prevent breakdown during storage. Still better nutritionally that formula, so to say.   

Also, you mention Hepatitis, there are multiple strains for Hep. Here is what WHO has to say on Hep B. 

:
"Risk of transmission by breastfeeding 



Breastfeeding has been suggested as an additional mechanism by which infants may acquire 



HBV infection, because small amounts of Hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) have been 



detected in some samples of breastmilk. However, there is no evidence that breastfeeding 



increases the risk of mother to child transmission. A follow up study of 147 infants born to 



mothers known to be carriers of HBV in Taiwan (4) found similar rates of HBV infection in 92 



children who were breastfed compared to 55 who were bottle fed. A study in Britain, involving 



126 subjects, also showed no additional risk for breastfed versus non breastfed infants of carrier 



mothers (5). This study included the measurement of HBeAg status of the mothers, but found no 



association between maternal e-antigen status and transmission rates. These findings suggest 



strongly that any risk of transmission associated with breastmilk is negligible compared to the 



high risk of exposure to maternal blood and body fluids at birth. Experts on hepatitis, however, 



do have concerns that breast pathology such as cracked or bleeding nipples or lesions with serous 



exudates could expose the infant to infectious doses of HBV. " 



 

Quoting anime.princess:

The virus can be passed throught the milk.  I don't know how the fuck they came up with those studies.  



Quoting MaryJarrett:

So the World Health Organization recommending that even mother's with HIV/AIDs breastfeed is what?





http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2009/world_aids_20091130/en/index.html








"In 2006, WHO recommended that ARVs be provided to HIV-positive pregnant women in the third trimester (beginning at 28 weeks) to prevent mother-to-child transmission of HIV. At the time, there was insufficient evidence on the protective effect of ARVs during breastfeeding. Since then, several clinical trials have shown the efficacy of ARVs in preventing transmission to the infant while breastfeeding. The 2009 recommendations promote the use of ARVs earlier in pregnancy, starting at 14 weeks and continuing through the end of the breastfeeding period.





WHO now recommends that breastfeeding continue until the infant is 12 months of age, provided the HIV-positive mother or baby is taking ARVs during that period. This will reduce the risk of HIV transmission and improve the infant's chance of survival.





"In the new recommendations, we are sending a clear message that breastfeeding is a good option for every baby, even those with HIV-positive mothers, when they have access to ARVs," said Daisy Mafubelu, WHO's Assistant Director General for Family and Community Health."








Quoting anime.princess:

None of those outlets are reliable sources.  Just pick a basic biology book that talks about viruses.  Don't try to feed me with your lack of knowledge.  




Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Not according to UNC CHapel Hill's recent studies

http://www.naturalnews.com/036382_breast_milk_AIDS_HIV.html

http://now.msn.com/breast-milk-has-superpowers-even-you-didnt-realize

This is current research from reliable sources




Quoting anime.princess:

You're are sooooo wrong.  That virus passes through the milk; it is not destroyed.  




Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Actually its being shown that bfing with hiv can protect babies..that bm kills the virus so i dunno there











Quoting anime.princess:

That's good, as long as she's not HIV+ or has Hepatits. 














Posted on CafeMom Mobile
hapababies
by Silver Member on Aug. 31, 2012 at 11:37 PM
3 moms liked this
You, orangeshirt, and Tabi are sharing some really great information. I wish it wasn't hidden in this post though, so that others could see the research that has been going on about bf and HIV.


Quoting MaryJarrett:

What if those 95% are the ones who suffers necrotising enterocolitis, asthma attack, SIDs, childhood leukemia, chronic ear infections, eczema, upper respiratory infections, diabetes, etc from being *unnecessarily* formula fed?

Why consider not breastfeeding a safe method? It is not risk free to skip out on mother's own milk. It is worth it to weigh the risks (5%) vs the benefit (95%).



Now I realize you aren't jumping straight to formula, as the child could get donor milk. That would be *great*, but the advantages of getting mothers own milk should never be discredited, especially when it is the best practice advice from the largest medical organization. The WHO lists the hierarchy of infant feed as (1) mother's milk from mother's breast (2) mother's milk in any way (3) human milk any way (4 and lastly) formula.

But look at how hard it is to get human milk. Use and popularity of donor milk has gone up dramatically lately, but it's still not enough as of yet.




Quoting anime.princess:

What about that less than 5%? It can still pass. 



Quoting MaryJarrett:

*Below* 5%. :) Let's read all of it.  

You are saying it *will* still pass. That IS false. It has a 95% chance of NOT passing. I said that in my post (which is probably where you are getting it from since you seem not so keen on checking).

That is your opinion that it isn't worth it.

Based on all the potential risks of formula usage, it would be my opinion (which is supported by the World Health Organization as linked below) to breastfeed. I tend to stick with the pros on this stuff. Best practice advice based in facts and studies, not on myths and old ill conceived theories. There are a lot of myths in the realm of pathology, especially the pathology of something misunderstood as HIV/AIDs. A lot of people believe that HIV and AIDs are the same thing, but you can have HIV for years without having AIDs. AIDs is only when your CD4 drops below 200. We're here to spread the most recent developments in the breastfeeding world. What you are saying is outdated and untrue. Good luck to you! :)  

Quoting anime.princess:

It is not 100% safe anyways; 95% safe, perhaps but not worth the risk.  It will still pass, regardless of the medication taken.   Looks like that part of the article YOU didn't read it.



Quoting MaryJarrett:

Did you read it? They are being treated with antiretroviral medications. These medications are also past through the breastmilk, which combines with breastmilk's natural ability to fight diseases. The recommendation before this was for mothers with HIV/AIDs to breastfeed exclusively for 6 months, then once solids were introduced to switch to formula. That goes along the same basis that breastmilk does help STOP the virus. Those studies showed that as long as the baby was only recieving mothers milk the baby was protected. This recent study has shown that even once solids are introduced the baby is still protected.
Not treated mothers transfer rates to children are between 15-45%. Treated mothers transfer rates are below 5%. It is fairly safe to breast feed with HIV/AIDs.
Not only that but scientists are researching ways to heat treat human milk so that it will be free of diseases, including HIV/AIDs. This is still new and in testing stages. I pray that it works. Yes, it will kill some of the goodness of the human milk BUT it would be just the same as scorching milk with excess lipase to prevent breakdown during storage. Still better nutritionally that formula, so to say.   

Also, you mention Hepatitis, there are multiple strains for Hep. Here is what WHO has to say on Hep B. 

:
"Risk of transmission by breastfeeding 



Breastfeeding has been suggested as an additional mechanism by which infants may acquire 



HBV infection, because small amounts of Hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) have been 



detected in some samples of breastmilk. However, there is no evidence that breastfeeding 



increases the risk of mother to child transmission. A follow up study of 147 infants born to 



mothers known to be carriers of HBV in Taiwan (4) found similar rates of HBV infection in 92 



children who were breastfed compared to 55 who were bottle fed. A study in Britain, involving 



126 subjects, also showed no additional risk for breastfed versus non breastfed infants of carrier 



mothers (5). This study included the measurement of HBeAg status of the mothers, but found no 



association between maternal e-antigen status and transmission rates. These findings suggest 



strongly that any risk of transmission associated with breastmilk is negligible compared to the 



high risk of exposure to maternal blood and body fluids at birth. Experts on hepatitis, however, 



do have concerns that breast pathology such as cracked or bleeding nipples or lesions with serous 



exudates could expose the infant to infectious doses of HBV. " 



 

Quoting anime.princess:

The virus can be passed throught the milk.  I don't know how the fuck they came up with those studies.  



Quoting MaryJarrett:

So the World Health Organization recommending that even mother's with HIV/AIDs breastfeed is what?





http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2009/world_aids_20091130/en/index.html








"In 2006, WHO recommended that ARVs be provided to HIV-positive pregnant women in the third trimester (beginning at 28 weeks) to prevent mother-to-child transmission of HIV. At the time, there was insufficient evidence on the protective effect of ARVs during breastfeeding. Since then, several clinical trials have shown the efficacy of ARVs in preventing transmission to the infant while breastfeeding. The 2009 recommendations promote the use of ARVs earlier in pregnancy, starting at 14 weeks and continuing through the end of the breastfeeding period.





WHO now recommends that breastfeeding continue until the infant is 12 months of age, provided the HIV-positive mother or baby is taking ARVs during that period. This will reduce the risk of HIV transmission and improve the infant's chance of survival.





"In the new recommendations, we are sending a clear message that breastfeeding is a good option for every baby, even those with HIV-positive mothers, when they have access to ARVs," said Daisy Mafubelu, WHO's Assistant Director General for Family and Community Health."








Quoting anime.princess:

None of those outlets are reliable sources.  Just pick a basic biology book that talks about viruses.  Don't try to feed me with your lack of knowledge.  




Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Not according to UNC CHapel Hill's recent studies

http://www.naturalnews.com/036382_breast_milk_AIDS_HIV.html

http://now.msn.com/breast-milk-has-superpowers-even-you-didnt-realize

This is current research from reliable sources




Quoting anime.princess:

You're are sooooo wrong.  That virus passes through the milk; it is not destroyed.  




Quoting tabi_cat1023:

Actually its being shown that bfing with hiv can protect babies..that bm kills the virus so i dunno there











Quoting anime.princess:

That's good, as long as she's not HIV+ or has Hepatits. 














Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Sweetheart08
by Member on Sep. 1, 2012 at 1:10 AM

that's wonderful that she had a change of heart!!

thickerthan
by on Sep. 1, 2012 at 10:21 PM
Quoting chelseamcnorman:


I used that stuff plus a cold cabbage leaf on each breast twice a week for pain relief. Just 20 minutes or it reduces milk production. I'm a lactavist, though I no longer have little ones. I always will speak for the right to breastfeed.
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