Ok, I'm seeing a new (to me) argument in the "gay is bad" debates, in relation to the idea expressed in my siggy. (The idea basically being, sure, gays are denounced in Leviticus, but then, so are all these other things, so why are we only holding on to that ONE?) So their argument now is that Christ came and made the new Covenant, and made it so that people didn't have to abide by those laws anymore. HOWEVER, the "sin of gay" was mentioned AGAIN in the New Testament (I checked it out: Corinthians 6:9) meaning that it had somehow not escaped with the others via Christ.
What say you now?
(I'm, of course, only asking because I need to know how to rebut this to someone who REFUSES to consider the idea that the Bible might not be 100%), and I'm coming up short.
Before we get going down an ugly path again, I want to emphasize that this is NOT to become a Christian-bashing thread. For some reason, "Celebrating Diversity" is often translated as "Celebrating everyone who's not mainstream, and bashing those who are." That's not what this is about. I think we can have a mature conversation about two conflicting lifestyles without ostracizing any of our group members.
Now show me that that disclaimer was unnecessary. :-)
Well, being neither a Christian or a lesbian.... :-) I honestly feel that the Bible is a great book full of wonderful philosophies and stories. I do not take it as fact or take everything in it literally.
When I was a Cathloic I definately a buffet Catholic. I would pick and choose what felt right for me.
OK... I just can't leave it out there....
Here you go....
Matthew 7:1-5 "Judge not lest ye be judged....
http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/7.html
Luke 6:27-36 Love your enemies
Luke 6:37-42 Judge not lest ye be judged.
Luke 6:43-45 A tree is known by it's fruit
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh
http://www.bartleby.com/108/42/6.html#37
John 8: 1-11 Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
http://www.cafemom.com/group/16717/boards/reply.php?post_id=4811119
John 13: 34
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
I don't have time to look up the others.... if you want rules from the new testament that very few follow.... Jesus commanded that the dead bury the dead and that a man leave his family to follow Christ. But those are a little slipperier. Also note the quote is from Corinthians, a letter from Paul, not part of the Gospels. It was probably written 50 years after the death of Christ.
Essentially, I think, Jesus exhorts us to be generous of spirit and heart and leave the judgement to the Divine Judge. Those who judge others pretend to be God.
Quoting Bike_Mom:
Those who judge others pretend to be God.
While I agree, this doesn't do much to in an argument with someone who says "It's not my place to judge anyone, but the BIBLE says it's wrong." Or, "I have no problem with gay people, but the life they lead is sinful."
But you're probably right...in that argument, the "judge not" route would probably be the best way to go.
This topic interests me because I have known quite a few devout Christians who are also gay. It confused me that they would associate with the church until I talked to a friend, a former monk, who explained things much the way Jess does in the OP. He added that he was sure that his love for his boyfriend was not a sin the same way he was sure that dancing and drinking were not sins: he had prayed about it, studied about it and knew that it was God's will that he be who he is.
Still, I'm not sure I would want to be a member of any organization whose members automatically condemned me for who I am while ignoring their own faults. I guess there are always going to be individuals who can find reasons to feel superior no matter where you are. As a result, I left the church decades ago. But, I've always had a special admiration for homosexuals who were strong enough to keep going to church, keep believing and keep forgiving those who aren't able to accept them wholly.
I think I mentioned in another post that it seems to me that the Bible gives a "pass" to lesbian relationships while gay men have suffered much more persecution; society seems to follow that lead as well. Or, is it the other way around? At least it seems so to me.
Maybe I should ask a question instead of conjecturing though. Is it more acceptable to be a lesbian according to the cultural and or religious mores of our society?
Diva G
Quoting DivaG:
Maybe I should ask a question instead of conjecturing though. Is it more acceptable to be a lesbian according to the cultural and or religious mores of our society?
uh oh...watch it ur gonna make jess mad!. lol jk...
i think you don't need to go to church to be a good "Christian". and really isn't a good "Christian" about loving everyone...no matter there differences...not being judgemental...
Quoting DivaG:
Quoting BigMommaJesca:
Quoting DivaG:
Maybe I should ask a question instead of conjecturing though. Is it more acceptable to be a lesbian according to the cultural and or religious mores of our society?
Uh oh. Did I hit a touchy subject?
Quoting DivaG:
Quoting BigMommaJesca:
Uh oh. Did I hit a touchy subject?
Nope; I don't think so. That's my "Wow, that's a really good question, I can't wait to see the responses" sweetpea. I know people usually use it as "Oh, yay, catfight ensuing," but I'm taking it back.
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on Aug. 6, 2008 at 4:42 PM