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Propping bottle :-( ?? Advice, please!

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I went to the daycare I **thought** I would be sending my baby to. One of my best friends has a baby in the infant room there also. When I walked in, her baby was sitting in a bouncy seat with a boppy in his lap with his bottle propped on it! I was SHOCKED! bottle propping is never ok, is it? I mean, he's like 8 or 9 months old, but that's still not ok, right?

Should I tell her? If so, how?
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by on Apr. 5, 2012 at 9:39 AM
Replies (41-43):
K8wizzo
by Kate on Apr. 6, 2012 at 12:50 PM

I'm going to walk away from this discussion at this point.  Every source I have ever seen or read has strongly encouraged holding to feed and strongly discouraged bottle propping and giving babies bottles while they are lying down.  There are laws for daycares about these practices for this reason.

The article does address some key points about the mechanics of bottle-feeding vs feeding at the breast, and further reading from many other sources has confirmed that for me.  You are welcome to do your own research and come to your own conclusions.  This is the page that the article was linked from: http://kellymom.com/parenting/parenting-faq/ear-infection-nursing/


Quoting Angeldolphine:

ok um...that doesn't answer ANY of my questions. It  doesn't address the difference between a bottle fed formula baby and a bottle fed breastmilk baby and ear infections. It's also applicable to breastfed directly vrs formula. That's not what I was asking. Is the risk for ear infections greater because it is formula or is it the bottle itself? I think it's the liquid IN the bottle, not the method.  Breastmilk being different then formula, even in a bottle. Does the rate of ear infections change between a bottle fed breastmilk baby and a breastfed from the boob baby?

Also, in a formula baby,  does the rate of ear infections change between an older child who can control the flow and a younger baby who can't and lying down flat? Older babies control the flow and have learned to quickly swallow, so I would think less milk would get in the Eustachian tubes, because the baby is able to keep up with the flow.

 Also, an older baby removes the bottle when finished, I don't see how there would be pooling in the mouth or ear. Also, have you ever watched an older baby take a bottle? They do tend to lie on their sides, sometimes the back, but mostly sides or they sit up. They also quickly swallow, much like what we do when swallowing water. They take it out if they need a break.  Again, I've already said that propping is dangerious and not a good idea. I have been talking about bottles in the bed though with an OLDER baby who holds their own bottle, not propping a bottle in the bed.

This is also a horrible source too. IVilgage is a magazine, the exspert is a RN who is a lactation consultant. Not a study. Not to mention her sources are at least 14 years old.

Quoting K8wizzo:

Most important for the breastfed baby are the wonderful antibodies and immune system boosters provided by breastmilk that discourage the growth of bacteria in the mouth, nose and ears. (Harabuchi et al 1994). The mechanics of breastfeeding inhibit the flow of milk into the Eustachian tubes (tubes connecting the nose and mouth with the middle ear). In breastfeeding, the milk only flows when the baby sucks. The suck is usually followed by a swallow and this greatly reduces the risk that milk will pool in the baby's mouth and enter the Eustachian tubes.

With bottle feeding, the formula can flow even when the baby is not sucking and swallowing, leading to milk pooling in the mouth and increasing the risk that formula will enter the ears. This is one reason that bottles should never be propped-up for the baby. Even when babies are held during a bottle feeding it is possible for milk to enter the Eustachian tubes because babies are usually fed on their back. (Lawrence 1994)

Breastfed babies are usually on their side, or with their head slightly elevated during feedings. Breastfeeding at night can not be compared to bottle propping because of the mechanics involved as well as the immune factors. Formula is much more irritating if it gets into the ear. Remember, it is a foreign substance, unlike breastmilk. Additionally the antibodies in breastmilk would tend to discourage the growth of bacteria, if it did get into the middle ear, unlike formula that has no antibodies.


http://www.ivillage.com/can-lying-down-nurse-cause-ear-infections/6-n-136748 

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I'm curious about two things. Do you know the techniques they use to get the babies to sleep before putting them in the crib? If you do, I really want to know how to do that! How do they get 3+ babies asleep before putting them in cribs? At a larger daycare I worked at, we patted their backs or rubbed their heads while they were in the crib. You can't do that anymore though, because they need to go on the back to sleep. 

Also, it should be easy to prove that giving bottles raises the risk of ear infections. Do you have any studies where they specifically studied the difference between formula fed babies, breastfed babies with bottles and breastfed babies from the breast and ear infections? I think there would be a difference between a breastfed and a formula bottlefed baby because of the difference in the fluids. One has antibodies and is antiviral and antibacterial and one does not. I understand that the eustachian tube to the ear connects to the throat, which is why a  baby shouldn't lie flat to eat. I think there would be a difference if the formula got in there vrs. breastmilk though. Obviously, milk comes faster from a bottle then from the breast, so more likely to get fluid up there. If the eustachian tube were blocked from a cold or whatever, then it would cause a problem. It would make sense though, that breastmilk would help prevent this from happening, and formula would cause issues because of bacteria and no antibacterial or antiviral protection like they are sopposed to have.  It would also make sense to me that this is why a breastfed baby is less likely to have ear infections. Okay, now I want to either test this out or find out if studies have been done on this. I'm sure there has.

Quoting tabi_cat1023:


Quoting Angeldolphine:

1. if they are propped, yes, which shouldn't happen period. But, when a baby is holding their own bottle, WAY less likely to choke. Besides, I said in the same room, not leave them with the bottle.either way in MY state they are not allowed to put a child in the crib til they are ASLEEP and they are not allowed to lay a baby in a crib to eat

2. If propped sure, but I don't see how this is different from getting the bottle before or after bed. How does it lay in the mouth? This doesn't make sense to me.I don't see how this is different from giving your baby a bottle in the middle of the night. Makes sense to me formula would cause tooth decay period. Breastmilk would not, so this wouldn't apply to a bottle fed breastmilk baby. you are right breastmilk will not cause tooth decay unless baby is given formula or solid foods plus berastmilk

3. I need to do research on that.This wouldn't apply to a bottlefed breastmilk baby either. I do know it's a myth that breastfed babies get ear infections from lying horizontal.Some babies lie on their side, or sit up to feed. YES it would, its the bottle not the stuff in it that causes the ear infections MOST time.  The bacteria from formula also contributes BUT its the way a bottle needs to be sucked and the way the milk goes into the mouth different from the breast.  SO bottlefeeding ANYTHING laying down means higher risk of ear infections

See, if one person has three babies and hand feeds all of them, that's fifteen minutes each baby. It would take 45 minutes to feed all three babies.not necessarily! You don't have time to do that. you have to FIND time by law If you have two older babies (babies can learn to hold own bottles around four or five months), you give the other two babies bottles and hand feed the third and you are done in fifteen minutesyou can also put babies in a bumbo for the older ones to hold their own bottles, you can use the boppy for multiples that way they are reclined but not laying down and hold bottles for 2 babies at a time.. Watching multiple babies is all about routine and multi-tasking. That's why I say if you exspect a daycare provider to hand feed your older baby, you should get a nanny.NOPE daycares MUST handfeed a baby, its required by law here and if a caregiver can't do it she should not take so many babies Anyone who watches multiple babies, know you want to try to get them on the same schedule for feeding and sleepingyeah generally. Of course, you read their cues and adjust when needed but for the most part, babies get hungry and tired around the same time, with the exception of a really young infant. I'm talking 4 or 5 months and older. my daycare staggered the feedings..they have 1-2 people feeding babies and another that played with the babies.  They also had swings or bouncy seats for other babies to be entertained.


Quoting K8wizzo:

1. Choking/aspiration hazard--it could KILL them.

2. Tooth decay from milk laying in the mouth.

3. Ear infections from drinking milk in a horizontal position.

Please don't give babies bottles in bed.  It's just not safe.  AT ALL. 

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I don't use a daycare, but I have worked in them. I don't see anything wrong with giving an older baby a bottle in the bed before nap time so long as you are in the room. Some babies fall asleep right after a bottle.

Quoting K8wizzo:

I'm sorry... did you just say your daycare puts babies to bed with bottles to help them fall asleep???  

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I agree with no bottle propping and not sitting in a bouncy seat or other immobilizer. I also agree with not left in bed when awake after a nap. No way on putting them in bed when dozing or asleep though, but definitely create a routine of sorts with bedtime, because some babies do fuss to sleep. Some do very well with pacifiers, or a bottle with an older baby or a swing with a younger baby. There's also a difference with an all out scream I don't want to go to bed and a tired fuss.  I'd like to know the infant to worker ratio and ages of the babies at that daycare. That's VERY unusual.

Quoting mrsfitz05:

Actually, you most certainly can expect that & should. My DS never held his own bottle once. My daycare has a strict no prop policy. He was held to feed there every day until the day he stopped taking bottles altogether. Babies are held to eat and IF they self-feed, they are only allowed to sit in the floor to do so. They cannot sit in a bouncy seat or other immobilizer to eat. My daycare doesn't actually encourage bottle self-feeding. The encourage the snuggling/feeding bond with parents - even for formula feeders and feel that is best maintained by consistency at daycare as well.They are not placed in beds unless they are asleep or at least dozing and are not to be left in beds once they awake.

Yes, they do act different at daycare - heck even my almost 6 month old even acts different just for daddy, but bottle propping is dangerous. If daycare doesn't have time to hold a bottle, they have too many kids and not enough workers.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

Did he go to daycare? My point is that if they go to daycare, you can't expect that when the baby is at the age to self-feed. Nanny yes, daycare no. Babies do act differently with parents then in other environments. That's why sometimes they will go straight to sleep at a daycare but act up for the parents.

Quoting K8wizzo:

eh... my older ds was bottle-fed (EP'd for a while and then had to switch to formula).  He never once held his own bottle.  He learned from our many attempts to nurse early on that feeding time is about snuggling, and while he would put his hands up to help, he always wanted us to hold him and his bottle and love on him while he drank it.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I didn't notice the bouncy seat part. I was thinking the baby was on the floor or in a playpen or something with a boppy. That doesn't sound safe to put the baby in the bouncer seat with a boppy! She should put the baby on the floor or in the bed (if other babies like to grab the bottle) on the boppy so they are holding the botttle. If the baby can't hold the bottle, then she should get a smaller bottle and teach him while holding the baby. He's plenty old enough to learn to self-feed without any propping. That would bother me too. I didn't see the bouncer seat part!

Quoting K8wizzo:

Babies can't put themselves in bouncy seats and put a boppy in their own laps.... that would bug me, personally.  OP, tell your friend.  And consider a different daycare--bottle propping is dangerous.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

At 8 or 9 months the baby should be holding their own bottle. Are you sure the baby didn't do that though?
















Angeldolphine
by on Apr. 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM
1 mom liked this

Of course propping is bad, if the baby is too young to hold the bottle, they can't control the flow and it's a dangerous practice because of that lack of control. They can't control the amount of milk going into their mouths. 

Again, the article addresses the difference between a formula and a breastfed baby, not a bottle fed breastmilk baby. I already know there is a difference, because of the difference between breastmilk and formula. 

Yeah, I will be doing my own research, because I have a LOT of questions. I need to understand why.  I need to know the science behind it. There are too many questions for me just to take this. It's not enough for it to be a law or even that a doctor says so, therefore it must be true. I need to see the studies and how they were done. Did they cover all the variables? 

Is there a difference between an formula fed older and a younger baby, whether the milk pools in the mouth on the rate of ear infections? (It makes since to me that a baby who can control the flow and can quickly swallow, would be okay lying down or in whatever position the baby chooses to be in and would have lower ear infections. But of course there is the variable with antibiotics, since if the baby has had a previous ear infection and antibiotics, more likely to have ear infections again an an older baby is more likely to have had a previous ear infection )

Is there a difference between a breastfed baby and a bottle-fed breastmilk baby on the rate of ear infections?  (My theory is it's not the method that causes the ear infections but the ingredients. Since breastmilk is antiviral and antibacterial and typically ear infections are caused by blockage of the Eustachian tube, it would make sense that the breastmilk would help prevent this from happening.) 

Thank you for responding to me, you have really helped me think through this! I know better what to research. It helps me to have a discussion, because that's how I think through things :)

Quoting K8wizzo:

I'm going to walk away from this discussion at this point.  Every source I have ever seen or read has strongly encouraged holding to feed and strongly discouraged bottle propping and giving babies bottles while they are lying down.  There are laws for daycares about these practices for this reason.

The article does address some key points about the mechanics of bottle-feeding vs feeding at the breast, and further reading from many other sources has confirmed that for me.  You are welcome to do your own research and come to your own conclusions.  This is the page that the article was linked from: http://kellymom.com/parenting/parenting-faq/ear-infection-nursing/


Quoting Angeldolphine:

ok um...that doesn't answer ANY of my questions. It  doesn't address the difference between a bottle fed formula baby and a bottle fed breastmilk baby and ear infections. It's also applicable to breastfed directly vrs formula. That's not what I was asking. Is the risk for ear infections greater because it is formula or is it the bottle itself? I think it's the liquid IN the bottle, not the method.  Breastmilk being different then formula, even in a bottle. Does the rate of ear infections change between a bottle fed breastmilk baby and a breastfed from the boob baby?

Also, in a formula baby,  does the rate of ear infections change between an older child who can control the flow and a younger baby who can't and lying down flat? Older babies control the flow and have learned to quickly swallow, so I would think less milk would get in the Eustachian tubes, because the baby is able to keep up with the flow.

 Also, an older baby removes the bottle when finished, I don't see how there would be pooling in the mouth or ear. Also, have you ever watched an older baby take a bottle? They do tend to lie on their sides, sometimes the back, but mostly sides or they sit up. They also quickly swallow, much like what we do when swallowing water. They take it out if they need a break.  Again, I've already said that propping is dangerious and not a good idea. I have been talking about bottles in the bed though with an OLDER baby who holds their own bottle, not propping a bottle in the bed.

This is also a horrible source too. IVilgage is a magazine, the exspert is a RN who is a lactation consultant. Not a study. Not to mention her sources are at least 14 years old.

Quoting K8wizzo:

Most important for the breastfed baby are the wonderful antibodies and immune system boosters provided by breastmilk that discourage the growth of bacteria in the mouth, nose and ears. (Harabuchi et al 1994). The mechanics of breastfeeding inhibit the flow of milk into the Eustachian tubes (tubes connecting the nose and mouth with the middle ear). In breastfeeding, the milk only flows when the baby sucks. The suck is usually followed by a swallow and this greatly reduces the risk that milk will pool in the baby's mouth and enter the Eustachian tubes.

With bottle feeding, the formula can flow even when the baby is not sucking and swallowing, leading to milk pooling in the mouth and increasing the risk that formula will enter the ears. This is one reason that bottles should never be propped-up for the baby. Even when babies are held during a bottle feeding it is possible for milk to enter the Eustachian tubes because babies are usually fed on their back. (Lawrence 1994)

Breastfed babies are usually on their side, or with their head slightly elevated during feedings. Breastfeeding at night can not be compared to bottle propping because of the mechanics involved as well as the immune factors. Formula is much more irritating if it gets into the ear. Remember, it is a foreign substance, unlike breastmilk. Additionally the antibodies in breastmilk would tend to discourage the growth of bacteria, if it did get into the middle ear, unlike formula that has no antibodies.


http://www.ivillage.com/can-lying-down-nurse-cause-ear-infections/6-n-136748 

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I'm curious about two things. Do you know the techniques they use to get the babies to sleep before putting them in the crib? If you do, I really want to know how to do that! How do they get 3+ babies asleep before putting them in cribs? At a larger daycare I worked at, we patted their backs or rubbed their heads while they were in the crib. You can't do that anymore though, because they need to go on the back to sleep. 

Also, it should be easy to prove that giving bottles raises the risk of ear infections. Do you have any studies where they specifically studied the difference between formula fed babies, breastfed babies with bottles and breastfed babies from the breast and ear infections? I think there would be a difference between a breastfed and a formula bottlefed baby because of the difference in the fluids. One has antibodies and is antiviral and antibacterial and one does not. I understand that the eustachian tube to the ear connects to the throat, which is why a  baby shouldn't lie flat to eat. I think there would be a difference if the formula got in there vrs. breastmilk though. Obviously, milk comes faster from a bottle then from the breast, so more likely to get fluid up there. If the eustachian tube were blocked from a cold or whatever, then it would cause a problem. It would make sense though, that breastmilk would help prevent this from happening, and formula would cause issues because of bacteria and no antibacterial or antiviral protection like they are sopposed to have.  It would also make sense to me that this is why a breastfed baby is less likely to have ear infections. Okay, now I want to either test this out or find out if studies have been done on this. I'm sure there has.

Quoting tabi_cat1023:


Quoting Angeldolphine:

1. if they are propped, yes, which shouldn't happen period. But, when a baby is holding their own bottle, WAY less likely to choke. Besides, I said in the same room, not leave them with the bottle.either way in MY state they are not allowed to put a child in the crib til they are ASLEEP and they are not allowed to lay a baby in a crib to eat

2. If propped sure, but I don't see how this is different from getting the bottle before or after bed. How does it lay in the mouth? This doesn't make sense to me.I don't see how this is different from giving your baby a bottle in the middle of the night. Makes sense to me formula would cause tooth decay period. Breastmilk would not, so this wouldn't apply to a bottle fed breastmilk baby. you are right breastmilk will not cause tooth decay unless baby is given formula or solid foods plus berastmilk

3. I need to do research on that.This wouldn't apply to a bottlefed breastmilk baby either. I do know it's a myth that breastfed babies get ear infections from lying horizontal.Some babies lie on their side, or sit up to feed. YES it would, its the bottle not the stuff in it that causes the ear infections MOST time.  The bacteria from formula also contributes BUT its the way a bottle needs to be sucked and the way the milk goes into the mouth different from the breast.  SO bottlefeeding ANYTHING laying down means higher risk of ear infections

See, if one person has three babies and hand feeds all of them, that's fifteen minutes each baby. It would take 45 minutes to feed all three babies.not necessarily! You don't have time to do that. you have to FIND time by law If you have two older babies (babies can learn to hold own bottles around four or five months), you give the other two babies bottles and hand feed the third and you are done in fifteen minutesyou can also put babies in a bumbo for the older ones to hold their own bottles, you can use the boppy for multiples that way they are reclined but not laying down and hold bottles for 2 babies at a time.. Watching multiple babies is all about routine and multi-tasking. That's why I say if you exspect a daycare provider to hand feed your older baby, you should get a nanny.NOPE daycares MUST handfeed a baby, its required by law here and if a caregiver can't do it she should not take so many babies Anyone who watches multiple babies, know you want to try to get them on the same schedule for feeding and sleepingyeah generally. Of course, you read their cues and adjust when needed but for the most part, babies get hungry and tired around the same time, with the exception of a really young infant. I'm talking 4 or 5 months and older. my daycare staggered the feedings..they have 1-2 people feeding babies and another that played with the babies.  They also had swings or bouncy seats for other babies to be entertained.


Quoting K8wizzo:

1. Choking/aspiration hazard--it could KILL them.

2. Tooth decay from milk laying in the mouth.

3. Ear infections from drinking milk in a horizontal position.

Please don't give babies bottles in bed.  It's just not safe.  AT ALL. 

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I don't use a daycare, but I have worked in them. I don't see anything wrong with giving an older baby a bottle in the bed before nap time so long as you are in the room. Some babies fall asleep right after a bottle.

Quoting K8wizzo:

I'm sorry... did you just say your daycare puts babies to bed with bottles to help them fall asleep???  

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I agree with no bottle propping and not sitting in a bouncy seat or other immobilizer. I also agree with not left in bed when awake after a nap. No way on putting them in bed when dozing or asleep though, but definitely create a routine of sorts with bedtime, because some babies do fuss to sleep. Some do very well with pacifiers, or a bottle with an older baby or a swing with a younger baby. There's also a difference with an all out scream I don't want to go to bed and a tired fuss.  I'd like to know the infant to worker ratio and ages of the babies at that daycare. That's VERY unusual.

Quoting mrsfitz05:

Actually, you most certainly can expect that & should. My DS never held his own bottle once. My daycare has a strict no prop policy. He was held to feed there every day until the day he stopped taking bottles altogether. Babies are held to eat and IF they self-feed, they are only allowed to sit in the floor to do so. They cannot sit in a bouncy seat or other immobilizer to eat. My daycare doesn't actually encourage bottle self-feeding. The encourage the snuggling/feeding bond with parents - even for formula feeders and feel that is best maintained by consistency at daycare as well.They are not placed in beds unless they are asleep or at least dozing and are not to be left in beds once they awake.

Yes, they do act different at daycare - heck even my almost 6 month old even acts different just for daddy, but bottle propping is dangerous. If daycare doesn't have time to hold a bottle, they have too many kids and not enough workers.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

Did he go to daycare? My point is that if they go to daycare, you can't expect that when the baby is at the age to self-feed. Nanny yes, daycare no. Babies do act differently with parents then in other environments. That's why sometimes they will go straight to sleep at a daycare but act up for the parents.

Quoting K8wizzo:

eh... my older ds was bottle-fed (EP'd for a while and then had to switch to formula).  He never once held his own bottle.  He learned from our many attempts to nurse early on that feeding time is about snuggling, and while he would put his hands up to help, he always wanted us to hold him and his bottle and love on him while he drank it.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

I didn't notice the bouncy seat part. I was thinking the baby was on the floor or in a playpen or something with a boppy. That doesn't sound safe to put the baby in the bouncer seat with a boppy! She should put the baby on the floor or in the bed (if other babies like to grab the bottle) on the boppy so they are holding the botttle. If the baby can't hold the bottle, then she should get a smaller bottle and teach him while holding the baby. He's plenty old enough to learn to self-feed without any propping. That would bother me too. I didn't see the bouncer seat part!

Quoting K8wizzo:

Babies can't put themselves in bouncy seats and put a boppy in their own laps.... that would bug me, personally.  OP, tell your friend.  And consider a different daycare--bottle propping is dangerous.

Quoting Angeldolphine:

At 8 or 9 months the baby should be holding their own bottle. Are you sure the baby didn't do that though?

















stephwordelman1
by on Apr. 6, 2012 at 6:56 PM

i've worked in daycare before if the baby is 8 or 9 months old, its okay for the bottle to be propped but their is a circumstance which is if the baby is able to hold bottle on their own if not, the baby needs to be held to be fed

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