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Oregon Baker Faces State Investigation After Refusing to Make Same-Sex Couple’s Wedding Cake

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Oregon Baker Faces State Investigation After Refusing to Make Same-Sex Couple’s Wedding Cake

Oregon Baker Faces State Investigation After Refusing to Make Cake for Same Sex Couples Wedding

(Photo: KATU)

An Oregon man may have broken the law and is facing a state investigation after refusing to bake a cake for a same-sex couple’s wedding, KATU reports.

KGW has details on the story:

It started on Jan. 17 when a mother and daughter showed up at Sweet Cakes by Melissa looking for the perfect wedding cake.

“My first question is what’s the wedding date,” said owner Aaron Klein.  “My next question is bride and groom’s name … the girl giggled a little bit and said it’s two brides.”

Klein apologized to the women and told them he and his wife do not make cakes for same-sex marriages.  Klein said the women were disgusted and walked out.

“I believe that marriage is a religious institution ordained by God,” said Klein.  “A man should leave his mother and father and cling to his wife … that to me is the beginning of marriage.”

[...]

“I’d rather have my kids see their dad stand up for what he believes in then to see him bow down because one person complained.”

One of the women filed a complaint on January 28– also saying Klein referred to them as “abominations unto the Lord”– and now the Oregon Attorney General’s civil enforcement officers are investigating the claim.

But Klein says he never used harsh language and has no problem with homosexuals; he just doesn’t want to be a part of their marriage.

“I honestly did not mean to hurt anybody, didn’t mean to make anybody upset, [it’s] just something I believe in very strongly,” he told KATU.

When asked whether he’d be willing to lose his business over the matter, Klein said: “If I have to be to, I guess, be penalized for my beliefs, then I guess, well, that’ll be what it is.”

The case now presents a unique legal dilemma, according to reports, since Oregon law forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation, and the U.S. Constitution protects Klein’s freedom of religion.

Klein has two weeks to file his official account what happened before the attorney general’s office decides how to proceed.

KATU has more on the story, including an interview with Klein:

VIDEO HERE:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/02/baker-under-investigation-after-declining-to-make-gay-couples-wedding-cake-if-i-have-to-be-penalized-for-my-beliefs-so-be-it/

by on Feb. 3, 2013 at 10:56 AM
Replies (31-40):
VeronicaTex
by on Mar. 1, 2013 at 12:41 PM
1 mom liked this

I used to be hired in the Hispanic Catholic Church as a soloist and guitarist to play for Quinceñeras, Anniversaries, and Weddings.

I was always open to suggestions for music, but would refuse to play contemporary music that spoke of love in the bedroom.

The only song I regret playing was "The Rose" by Bette Midler.  I did not know at the time what it was really about.

Veronica-Roman Catholic Musician

Anonymous
by Anonymous 2 on Mar. 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM
1 mom liked this
Would it be too much to go to court if he refused to serve black people?
kitty8199
by on Mar. 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM
1 mom liked this
You don't choose sexual orientation either.
We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.
And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.


Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 


Quoting GaleJ:




Quoting Ednarooni160:




Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  



Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's
cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what
orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know
if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty
items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I
doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you
provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding
cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made
for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.




What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.



I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.






Posted on CafeMom Mobile
GertieK
by Silver Member on Mar. 1, 2013 at 1:13 PM
2 moms liked this

Yes, we have separation of church and state....but it is not from any of our legal founding documents.  It is something that has been fabricated and twisted to fit an agenda, and is NOT constitutional.  ALSO, his business is not "the state".  It is a privately owned business, and he can serve who he wants.  PLUS, the law actualy says:

"In accordance with Federal law and U.S. Department of Agriculture policy, this institution is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, age, or disability. 

This disclaimer is what we are required to teach to new agencies where I work.  Sexual orientation is NOT on there.  PLUS, this crap is out of hand.  Give it a rest already, and get over yourself.  Some people are just bound and determined to cause a ruckus.  How about just shrugging your shoulders and moving on?

 


Ednarooni160
by Bronze Member on Mar. 1, 2013 at 2:30 PM
1 mom liked this



Quoting GaleJ:



Quoting Ednarooni160:



Quoting GaleJ:



Quoting Ednarooni160:



Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  


Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.



What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.


I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.


. He has a choice..although Oregon legally says you "have" to serve everyone.  If you force me to have an abortion because you (.example China) says it's the law..that takes away my freedoms as a chinese citizen to choose whether to have a baby or not ....and not everyone agreed with slavery back in the day..and helped  slaves go to Canada by way of the underground railroad. . So we can't pin all bad things from people because of the bible. If he had denied making a cake for a KKK I would have agreed with him on that also.  I think that there was a post in some group where a cake baker refused to make a birthday cake because the child's name was Hitler or something like that.   I think we should all have a right to say "no" to things we disagree with.. I can't disagree with you that the bible has been used to "control", "manipulate" etc. people.. Money, bibles, etc..can be used for good or bad..some humans tend to "twist" things to get their agendas across.. The "law" is a slippery slope..at one time slavery was the law..and that was wrong (imo)..


The man must do business under the laws of the state in which he operates his business. He can, of course refuse to do so in protest of his beliefs but if he chooses to do that then he must accept the consequences of his actions. If public accommodation is required than to not serve a particular customer, for whatever reason, isn't acceptable under the law. He has many choices in this really but the bottom line is that if he has made the choice to operate a public business, his bakery, then in doing so he accepts the laws under which he has acquired a business license and so to refuse to serve someone breaks that law. 


There's no disputing that..Oregon placed a law to say that.. He of course has a choice to close his bakery which he said he would do if forced to comply..and/or he can fight it in a court of law.. I think when you (gov you) place "orders"  on to businesses and say when they can or can't service someone..there can be a problem.  Remember the signs..no shirts..no shoes...no service? That didn't apply here..he had given them service before.   He didn't disrespect them  (although that's in debate now) as he did her mother's wedding? cake)  ..he just told them he doesn't want to participate in something he doesn't agree with..  I doubt he would turn down a birthday cake for her..he just doesn't agree with same sex marriage.


littlemoments99
by Member on Mar. 1, 2013 at 4:04 PM

I know it's illegal but that didn't stop them did it? And...nobody cared. Big surprise. 

Also, separation of church and state does not mean what everyone seems to think it does. It means the government stays out of the church, not the other way around. Besides, that's not even in the constitution. It's not a law. So, you should stop using that as an excuse. The only thing the constitution says is that the nation shall not found a national religion. That's it! Nothing else. 

And...like I said. I can prove from God's word that homosexuality is a choice. 


Quoting kitty8199:

You don't choose sexual orientation either.
We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.
And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.


Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 


Quoting GaleJ:




Quoting Ednarooni160:




Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  



Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's
cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what
orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know
if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty
items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I
doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you
provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding
cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made
for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.




What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.



I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.








kitty8199
by on Mar. 1, 2013 at 4:14 PM
where does he say its a choice. Not everyone worships the same God. So you can't put those beliefs into laws.
How would you feel of they stared implementing toaist, rules into laws because that's how some believe.
You gonna become vegetarian, and not eat vegetables that kill the whole plant (potato).
If you're pushing for it you have to accept it may not always be your church and never complain.
You expect others to just accept your views from your religion.
Quoting littlemoments99:

I know it's illegal but that didn't stop them did it? And...nobody cared. Big surprise. 

Also, separation of church and state does not mean what everyone seems to think it does. It means the government stays out of the church, not the other way around. Besides, that's not even in the constitution. It's not a law. So, you should stop using that as an excuse. The only thing the constitution says is that the nation shall not found a national religion. That's it! Nothing else. 

And...like I said. I can prove from God's word that homosexuality is a choice. 



Quoting kitty8199:

You don't choose sexual orientation either.

We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.

And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.





Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 



Quoting GaleJ:





Quoting Ednarooni160:





Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  




Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's

cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what

orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know

if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty

items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I

doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you

provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding

cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made

for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.





What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.




I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.











Posted on CafeMom Mobile
littlemoments99
by Member on Mar. 1, 2013 at 4:17 PM
2 moms liked this

Nope. I was just saying, this guy has a valid reason for refusing service because it clearly goes against his religion. He has every right to say no to giving a wedding cake to people he does not think should be able to get married. I realize it's a law in his state and maybe he will have to pay a fine or something, but I think it's ridiculous that the government thinks they can tell people what morals they can and can't have. 


Quoting kitty8199:

Not everyone worships the same God. So you can't put those beliefs into laws.
How would you feel of they stared implementing toaist, rules into laws because that's how some believe.
You gonna become vegetarian, and not eat vegetables that kill the whole plant (potato).
If you're pushing for it you have to accept it may not always be your church and never complain.
You expect others to just accept your views from your religion.


Quoting littlemoments99:

I know it's illegal but that didn't stop them did it? And...nobody cared. Big surprise. 

Also, separation of church and state does not mean what everyone seems to think it does. It means the government stays out of the church, not the other way around. Besides, that's not even in the constitution. It's not a law. So, you should stop using that as an excuse. The only thing the constitution says is that the nation shall not found a national religion. That's it! Nothing else. 

And...like I said. I can prove from God's word that homosexuality is a choice. 



Quoting kitty8199:

You don't choose sexual orientation either.

We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.

And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.





Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 



Quoting GaleJ:





Quoting Ednarooni160:





Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  




Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's

cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what

orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know

if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty

items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I

doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you

provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding

cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made

for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.





What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.




I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.













kitty8199
by on Mar. 1, 2013 at 4:20 PM
So you're saying legalize gay marriage and abortion?
You did say the government needs to not dictate morals right? Or just your morals. Can't be both ways.


Quoting littlemoments99:

Nope. I was just saying, this guy has a valid reason for refusing service because it clearly goes against his religion. He has every right to say no to giving a wedding cake to people he does not think should be able to get married. I realize it's a law in his state and maybe he will have to pay a fine or something, but I think it's ridiculous that the government thinks they can tell people what morals they can and can't have. 



Quoting kitty8199:

Not everyone worships the same God. So you can't put those beliefs into laws.

How would you feel of they stared implementing toaist, rules into laws because that's how some believe.

You gonna become vegetarian, and not eat vegetables that kill the whole plant (potato).

If you're pushing for it you have to accept it may not always be your church and never complain.

You expect others to just accept your views from your religion.




Quoting littlemoments99:

I know it's illegal but that didn't stop them did it? And...nobody cared. Big surprise. 

Also, separation of church and state does not mean what everyone seems to think it does. It means the government stays out of the church, not the other way around. Besides, that's not even in the constitution. It's not a law. So, you should stop using that as an excuse. The only thing the constitution says is that the nation shall not found a national religion. That's it! Nothing else. 

And...like I said. I can prove from God's word that homosexuality is a choice. 




Quoting kitty8199:

You don't choose sexual orientation either.


We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.


And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.








Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 




Quoting GaleJ:






Quoting Ednarooni160:






Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  





Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's


cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what


orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know


if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty


items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I


doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you


provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding


cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made


for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.






What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.





I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.

















Posted on CafeMom Mobile
littlemoments99
by Member on Mar. 1, 2013 at 4:28 PM

You make yourself look unintelligent. You know what I am saying, you just don't care. 


Quoting kitty8199:

So you're saying legalize gay marriage and abortion?
You did say the government needs to not dictate morals right? Or just your morals. Can't be both ways.


Quoting littlemoments99:

Nope. I was just saying, this guy has a valid reason for refusing service because it clearly goes against his religion. He has every right to say no to giving a wedding cake to people he does not think should be able to get married. I realize it's a law in his state and maybe he will have to pay a fine or something, but I think it's ridiculous that the government thinks they can tell people what morals they can and can't have. 



Quoting kitty8199:

Not everyone worships the same God. So you can't put those beliefs into laws.

How would you feel of they stared implementing toaist, rules into laws because that's how some believe.

You gonna become vegetarian, and not eat vegetables that kill the whole plant (potato).

If you're pushing for it you have to accept it may not always be your church and never complain.

You expect others to just accept your views from your religion.




Quoting littlemoments99:

I know it's illegal but that didn't stop them did it? And...nobody cared. Big surprise. 

Also, separation of church and state does not mean what everyone seems to think it does. It means the government stays out of the church, not the other way around. Besides, that's not even in the constitution. It's not a law. So, you should stop using that as an excuse. The only thing the constitution says is that the nation shall not found a national religion. That's it! Nothing else. 

And...like I said. I can prove from God's word that homosexuality is a choice. 




Quoting kitty8199:

You don't choose sexual orientation either.


We have separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't be pushed on others.


And it is illegal to not rent to a couple based on not being married.








Quoting littlemoments99:

Yep. There it was. Discrimination. It's not discrimination. Homosexuals are on a completely different level than the race card. You cannot choose which race you are and anyone who uses the Bible to say a thing about race is taking the Bible out of context. God says nothing about race. 

You choose to be a homosexual. That is a choice. That's God's view, not mine. If you want to argue, take it up with God. Therefore, because it's a choice you should be able to say it's against your religion or even just your morals to serve that person. Think about everything that can be discriminated against: age, race, gender, none of those you can choose. Now, on the very off chance there can be ones like pregnancy, or married status but no one even pays attention to those. My husband and I were told we could not live in an apartment complex because we were married. We didn't get that, but we tried writing to the BBB and they didn't do a thing about it and they said it wasn't discrimination. But if a homosexual couple wasn't allowed into an apartment complex for being homosexuals, it would be all over the news as a "Discrimination case" 

If someone can show that giving a homosexual couple a wedding cake goes against their religion (and I can) then they should not be forced to do something that is against their beliefs. 




Quoting GaleJ:






Quoting Ednarooni160:






Quoting GaleJ:

I agree with you, I find his "stand" to be a bit much. While I support his right to believe as he wishes he is operating a business that is open to the public and so accepts that his services are available to all that wish to contract with him for such services. And as you pointed out he probably doesn't know much about other clients for which he bakes so to decide that he won't be party to a same-sex marriage, to which he objects, through his cake is just a bit much. After all he isn't being asked to stand up to the wedding or to even attend and I doubt that anyone would consider that the baker has any substantial involvement other than a commercial one.

From another standpoint I must wonder what actually happened in this "he said, she said" situation and am content to let this be decided in a court. I also will be interested in the outcome of this.  





Quoting Ednarooni160:

I'm guessing that since it's in the state law that all businesses have to service the public even in cases of sexual orientation..I'm guessing he's going to face a problem... But..he was honest..and he said he would give up his business if that's what it took..

  This is my thought..I know lots of cake bakers that do "anyone's


cake".. If you own a restaurant you "usually" don't know what


orientation the customer is..if you eat at a restaurant you don't know


if the server, owner, or cook is gay. But sadly when you do specialty


items..like wedding cakes..you do.. If it had been a birthday cake I


doubt there would have been a problem.. So..one has to ask..if you


provide a birthday cake for someone..why would you not provide a wedding


cake..ergo lies the distinction of one's beliefs that marriage was made


for a man and woman only.   Some don't care..some do.






What I was stating was basically that no one knows who's gay or not in the food world UNTIL it is voiced.. This time it was voiced.  I'm sure he could care less what cake he bakes but when confronted with say putting two same figures on a cake..he took  a stand because of his beliefs.. I'm sure this would be the same in any "bakery" that is of deep religious convictions, Christian or otherwise.. IF they hadn't of said anything..I doubt he would have thought anything about it..  I think he did her mothers wedding cake..so ergo they went back to him.  I think he will get into trouble being as it's law based..not sure how constitutional that is but..when a law passes  you either obey it and/or dispute it.  I think it's best to be "upfront" about doing or not doing cakes because of  your religious beliefs. If he had turned down a black man and a white woman that wouldn't be of a "religious" conviction and would be out and out discrimination..  Not sure how this is going to turn out..but he did say he would give up the business if he was forced to do it.  I've seen lots of cake shows (Cake Boss) comes to mind where they make cakes for gays, transgenders etc..  Who knows what they believe or don't believe but they do it..because it's a business..  I am not sure how I would handle it..  I don't believe in the life style and I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...but..that being said I totally respect anyone untl they give me a reason not to respect them.





I must disagree with you here because there was a time when those that disapproved of interracial couples did use religion as an excuse. Of course now that seems rather ridiculous and it's my personal hope that the issue of same sex marriage will undergo the same change of acceptance as people become accustomed to the idea and see that it is a positive and not a negative. 

While I am not a Christian and while I really don't want to be disapproving of any one's belief's the history of Christianity includes many issues for which Christians used the Bible to justify their particular position at different times including intolerance of others beliefs and religions, acceptance and even the defense of slavery, civil rights for women and African Americans, intolerance of and refusal to accept the gender identity and sexual preferences of others, reproductive rights and choice, etc. While our rights include the freedom of religion, that is a private right to practice a religion of your choice, it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against others who do not share your particular beliefs including within the realm of public accommodation and business.



















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