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Orders overseas and no vaccines

Posted by on Nov. 18, 2009 at 9:47 PM
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My husband is re-enlisting and we are up for new orders (shore duty). There are 22 billets open for overseas and now i would LOVE to go overseas because I'd never be able to do it any other time. It would be a great experience. Now my question is. Can they deny us the orders because our dd is not vaccinated. She did recieve 3 vaccines at 2 months and had a horrible reaction and has had no more. Im also pregnant with our 2nd and this one will be completely vaccine free. My friend didnt want to vaccinate but said she "had to" because her husband got orders to japan. I know that we are civilians so the military cant make us get up to date? right? Is there any way to get around it? I told my husband that if it was vaccinate or dont go i'd choose to stay in the states. I WILL NOT put my child at risk just to be over seas.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Or just where i should start looking. I get so confused with all the regulations and such.

by on Nov. 18, 2009 at 9:47 PM
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Replies (1-10):
LivysMama
by Member on Nov. 18, 2009 at 11:09 PM

I'm fairly certain that if you get the religious/ philosophical waiver or medical waiver they cannot force you to get any vaccinations, whether you are military or not. Go to Dr.Mercola's web site, he had TONS of medical and legal advice for people who don't vax. Good luck!

 

       

      

                                                               

 

asaffell
by Member on Nov. 18, 2009 at 11:20 PM

Here's a good thread on it:

http://www.cafemom.com/group/4388/forums/read/8578274/Can_the_military_make_you?next=11#replies

Technology has turned the fetus into a patient, reducing the mother to being the 'maternal environment' and preventing attachment until after the ultrasound has shown the fetus to be 'normal.'

-Jennifer Hall

 

BREASTFEEDING IS NOT ADULT NATURED! 

happytexasCM
by Gold Member on Nov. 19, 2009 at 10:55 AM

I would be raising hell if the military tried to separate my family based on vaccinations.

There is no country that you can go to as a dependent that requires visitors to be vaccinated and no SOFA that requires that.

There is some stuff on exemptions in here but you have nothing to be exempt from.

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If all else fails contact your congressmen; I'd carry their contact numbers in your purse along with the following regs (look them up and print out the actual pages).
Everyone you have to talk to will tell you a different requirement. Always demand (nicely) that they put their request in writing, reference the regulation, and sign their name to it.

Remember that you are a civilian, your children are civilians, and that they are not disease infested swamp things ). Also, as a civilian you can be Wiccan or Catholic and still be "opposed to the practice of immunization". The Chaplain can govern the exemptions of service members but not dependents. If you have a sympathetic person in your dh's chain of command you may want to take them to any meetings; in any case you will want a witness and to write down what they have told you immediately afterwards.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
VACCINATION STATUS: Command Sponsorship and Dependent Travel

[quote=mommyrn5;13095222] Because of the AFIs you posted, I was able to locate a few more AFIs. Everything I read said that dependents have to get whatever vaxes are required for entry into that particular country (Japanese Encephalitis for Japan, for example), but I couldn't find anything anywhere that stated a dependent's vaxes must be up to date in order to get command sponsorship or for the military to purchase the dependent's plane tickets. I also found, through my research, that this seems to be a common "threat" people are hearing lately. I am beginning to think that this is one of those things like people telling you your kids can't go to school without being vaxed. It isn't true, but people hear it, they believe it, they repeat it. But at the heart of it is a veiled attempt to scare people into vaxing their kids. I also finally spoke with someone at Outbound Assignments at the base. She said that if you get medical clearance, they cut the orders and buy the tickets. Since I went through the medical clearance process last year, I know that dependent's vax records aren't looked at in that process.

Thanks, again, for all the pubs you listed. They were a huge help!

Kathy


AFI 36-2110 Assignments
AFI 36-3020 Family Member Travel
AFI 36-2102 Base-level Relocation Procedures
AFCSM 36-699 Volume I

[DOC]

"Remember that you can file ICE reports online for ANY bad and good experiences you have at any military facility (military doctor, the commissary, exchange, etc.). They will always follow up on your report and try to remedy the situation. The ICE system is done through DOD and stands for Interactive Customer Evaluation."
http://ice.disa.mil/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

COMMAND SPONSORSHIP

www.48fss.com/DNN/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=AnFg2fIO99U%3D&tabid= 138&mid=711 -

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY
ASSIGNMENT
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=usmilitary&cdn=careers&tm=4&f=20&su=p554.12.336.ip_&tt=11&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives/01000%2520Military%2520Personnel%2520Support/01-300%2520Assignment%2520and%2520Distribution%2520Services/1300.14D.pdf

DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/swmi/Documents/Overseas%20Screening(Encl%204).pdf
http://www.militaryhomefront.dod.mil/dav/lsn/LSN/BINARY_RESOURCE/BINARY_CONTENT/1601311.pdf

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NAVY/JAPAN INFORMATION

I did a search on the mothering.com vax board for "navy"; just look for my responses... I think the first one has my general miltary childcare vaccination information; the second has Navy/Japan information.

Navy PCS 1

Navy PCS 2

Navy Search


Quote:

Originally Posted by
Quick update:
We just went for our overseas screening (VA to Japan). We sel/delay vax. We are Navy. We were told we HAD to get kids up to date on all vax per CDC/WHO recs or they would not sign the Form 1300-2 form for the immunizations. it was an Army reg (not sure which one - dh may remember) which clearly stated they must be current per the CDC recommendations.

Quote:

All that I have read up to this point said that the vaccinations are recommendations (except those required by the host country, which there are none) and are not requirements per reg (though you can be denied assignment for any reason).

  NAVMED 13001/2; it says that immunization requirements are "assignment specific" and "meet destination country requirements" (there are none required by Japan).

I've known at least 4 people on another are in Japan or going; and they are all Navy and not vaxing! Not all Navy dependents to Japan are being treated the same; at least this treatment is very recent (since about Jan 09). Oddly enough, though they cited an Army reg. I don't know any overseas Army dependents with this problem; it's just the Navy.

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY
ASSIGNMENT
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...s/1300.14D.pdf


DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/swmi/Documents/Overseas%20Screening(Encl%204).pdf

Be aware that the Army regulation sprung on Paniscus concerned DOD schools, CDC daycares, and other childminding institutions that had nothing to do with dependents getting a medical clearance for an overseas accompanied tour/ to deny a medical clearance for an overseas tour:

(Army Regulation 40–562
BUMEDINST 6230.15A
AFJI 48–110
CG COMDTINST M6230.4F
http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/969r40_562.pdf).

It's like saying "you cannot include pianos in your household goods and this regulation, regarding pcsing with pets, backs up my statement."


___________________________________________


Advice from an Officer:


[QUOTE]

You know, in the two years since my son was born, I've only had one pediatritian (between my two children) question my decision not to vaccinate.  Every other one just double checked with me (to confirm what I told the tech) and that was that.  The one guy who questioned me was a real douchebag. 


I was taking my daughter in who has numerous medical problems (was a preemie & low birth weight baby who probably has cerebral palsy or something similiar).  She was gaining weight very slowly at 6 months, and was exclusively breastfed.  I couldn't bottle feed or give her solid food because of her problems.  He went on for 15 minutes about her weight gain, trying to make me feel bad for never pumping (supposedly that would tell me if I had a low supply, and when I told him pumping bears no reflection on your supply he looked at me like I was an idiot), then tried to make me feel bad for never giving her a bottle (when attempted it activates her severe gag reflex and she pukes everywhere, so why bother when my boobs work just fine) and then acted like I was an idiot when I told him she had sensory issues with her mouth and I couldn't feed her solids quite yet.  I then asked him for a referral to a nutritionist, and he told me there wouldn't be a point because she was only breastfed.  He said I shouldn't wait past 6 months to introduce solids because it could cause food allergies -WTF!


He then started in on vaccinations.  I told him that we were very educated and researched a lot on the matter, and if we DID vaccinate, it wouldn't be until they were older.  He then said that vaccines weren't as effective if you waited until they were older!!!  I just stared at him and told him our minds were made up and I wasn't going to discuss my reasons with him.  He was irritating me for treating me like an idiot and making things up to try to persuade me to go his way.  And if he wasn't making them up, then I don't know what research he's reading, because I'd never heard the things he was saying.  I felt like I had to explain that I was an intelligent woman, that just because I'm a SAHM mom, doesn't mean I'm not smart and educated.  I graduated from the Air Force Academy, for crying out loud. 


I just hate being condesended to.  But I know my rights, and for whatever reason, in the experiences I've seen with me and my sister, they tend to not try to push around officers/officers wives as much as enlisted.  My sister said they tried fear tactics all the time with her when her DH was enlisted, but never when he was an officer.  And having been enlisted and an officer, I've seen that as well.


Just don't accept that answer.  I really don't believe that they can refuse to PCS you overseas because you or your children aren't vaccinated. 


If this happened to me, this is the order in which I would take action: 


  1. Contact my DH's chain of command to see if they can work the situation
  2. Then make an IG complaint if that didn't work
  3. Write to my congressman if that failed
  4. Lastly contact the media 

http://www.cafemom.com/group/4388/forums/read/8578274/Can_the_military_make_you?next=11#replies
[/QUOTE]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(CDC on base giving me a difficult time! (UPDATE)


Quote:

Just say that you believe God (I personally prefer the Universe, but it's best just to conform to the typical Judeo-Christian thing for the sake of getting it done) created us perfect and you believe that it is wrong and arrogant to believe we can improve upon God's perfect creation. Therefore, it would be a violation of your religious principle's to vaccinate your perfectly healthy children.

I would avoid being too specific; one reason being you run the risk of giving philosophical reasons that SEEM religious. Anything you find online, reword.

Really, I would avoid being specific at all, but if it happens..."are you claiming to be a religous authority with dominion over dependent's religious beliefs? The regulation does not specify such authority and neither does federal law."

K.N.O.W. Vaccines - Religious Exemption


________________________________________________

United States> Code of Federal Regulations> Title 29 - Labor> CHAPTER XIV--EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION

29 C.F.R. PART 1605—GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF RELIGION

§ 1605.1   “Religious” nature of a practice or belief.

In most cases whether or not a practice or belief is religious is not at issue. However, in those cases in which the issue does exist, the Commission will define religious practices to include moral or ethical beliefs as to what is right and wrong which are sincerely held with the strength of traditional religious views. This standard was developed in United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965) and Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333 (1970). The Commission has consistently applied this standard in its decisions.1 The fact that no religious group espouses such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the individual professes to belong may not accept such belief will not determine whether the belief is a religious belief of the employee or prospective employee. The phrase “religious practice” as used in these Guidelines includes both religious observances and practices, as stated in section 701(j), 42 U.S.C. 2000e(j).


[QUOTE]

To whom it may concern;



(We / I) {First and Last name(s)}, as the {(parent (s) / guardian(s)} of ______________________(name of newborn child) are exercising (our/my) rights under the US Constitution, Army Regulation 40-562, BUMEDINST 6230.15A, AF JI 48-110, CG COMDTINST M6230.4F , section 3.2, para4,  
and Army Regulation 608-10, section 4-6, para 2, to receive Religious Exemption from Vaccination, due to our genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required.


The U.S. Supreme Court held in Frazee V. Illinois Dept. of Security, 489 U.S. 829, that a religious belief is subject to protection even though no religious group espouses such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the individual professes to belong may not advocate or require such belief. This ruling is also reflected in
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as amended Nov. 1, 1980; Part 1605.1-Guidelines on Discrimination Because of Religion.


Sincerely,

Your signature.
Date

[/QUOTE]



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I just find it very interesting that they are so quick to blame an
underlying condition for her death [post HPV vaccine], but if you point out that most
people who die from VPDs (not cervical cancer, but the other ones) also
have underlying conditions you are told that it is irrelevant and the
diseases are so scary, and get the shots." ~~Just Lily~~

Sammieda
by Member on Nov. 19, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Thank you guys so much. So if im understanding it correctly my children and I wont need to be up todate on vaccinations unless there is required ones where we are getting stationed. I will make sure to print off regulations and I need to file for my religious exemption for my daughter. I should just make a folder for everything so I have it all organized.

Thanks so much. I'll let my husband know what you have all told me. I'll look into the countries where we could go and see if there is any required and what diseases are still active in those areas.

I'll also keep you all updated if things change or what everyone says to me.

happytexasCM
by Gold Member on Nov. 19, 2009 at 4:57 PM


Quoting Sammieda:

Thank you guys so much. So if im understanding it correctly my children and I wont need to be up todate on vaccinations unless there is required ones where we are getting stationed. I will make sure to print off regulations and I need to file for my religious exemption for my daughter. I should just make a folder for everything so I have it all organized.

Thanks so much. I'll let my husband know what you have all told me. I'll look into the countries where we could go and see if there is any required and what diseases are still active in those areas.

I'll also keep you all updated if things change or what everyone says to me.

You only need a religious exemption if you are using on base daycare or DODs.

You can check the state department website and MDtravelhealth.com.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I just find it very interesting that they are so quick to blame an
underlying condition for her death [post HPV vaccine], but if you point out that most
people who die from VPDs (not cervical cancer, but the other ones) also
have underlying conditions you are told that it is irrelevant and the
diseases are so scary, and get the shots." ~~Just Lily~~

dillertwins08
by Member on Nov. 21, 2009 at 6:42 AM

We are currently overseas with the Air Force, when we moved here it was just my husband and I but of course I still had to be screened and I have never been vaccinated. I can't remember them even asking about vaccines.  I would NOT bring it up, and if they do and they don't ask for records just say they are upto date.  Take your kids to see family practice not the peds.!!

micheledo
by Bronze Member on Nov. 21, 2009 at 7:14 AM

Like others have mentioned, the only ones you will HAVE to get are the ones that the country actually requires you to recieve before you enter.  You get a yellow pamphlet that goes into your passport - it has to have any required shots on it.  The authorities will check that when they check your passport too.  So it depends entirely on what country you go to!

   
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Sammieda
by Member on Nov. 21, 2009 at 2:27 PM

Ok Thanks so much this makes me feel so much better. When we move we will have 2 little ones. A 2 yr old (only had her 2 month shots) and a newborn (vax free). My husband really wants to go overseas and kinda made it seem he'd be fine if they got vaccines so we could go. I told him if they needed any then he could go overseas by  himself and i'd stay back here. We got a little bit of time to figure things out and make a decision. I'll look up the places where orders are and tell him what if any are required.

So I just looked it up and there arent any required vaccines. They are just recommended. They also listed specific ones that they recommend to make sure they have. The places we have to choose from are Guam, Italy, Spain, Japan, and Greece. Im leaning more towards Italy but shawn likes guam because there is incentives to go there. Any thoughts?

stpalmsgirl
by Silver Member on Nov. 22, 2009 at 12:24 PM

We are currently stationed in Japan and our dd is vaccine free. I don't know if this differs from branch to branch as I have heard different stories from others, my dh is in the army.

The only thing to get the green light to go was that we had to go through the EFMP screening and that was it. Since my dd doesn't have any illnesses that need special care it was a piece of cake. The doc didn't even bother to speak about the vaccines. I don't really think they could make you go if you'd bring an religious exemption with you for just in case. That's what I did but since the doc didn't bring it up I didn't neither.

When we got here we had some trouble with one of dh's supervisors but I got it solved. The doctors over here in the military hospital are all pretty cool about it, probably because a large number of the japanese population doesn't immunize and they are used to it.

Do you know where you going?

stpalmsgirl
by Silver Member on Nov. 22, 2009 at 12:29 PM


Quoting Sammieda:

Ok Thanks so much this makes me feel so much better. When we move we will have 2 little ones. A 2 yr old (only had her 2 month shots) and a newborn (vax free). My husband really wants to go overseas and kinda made it seem he'd be fine if they got vaccines so we could go. I told him if they needed any then he could go overseas by  himself and i'd stay back here. We got a little bit of time to figure things out and make a decision. I'll look up the places where orders are and tell him what if any are required.

So I just looked it up and there arent any required vaccines. They are just recommended. They also listed specific ones that they recommend to make sure they have. The places we have to choose from are Guam, Italy, Spain, Japan, and Greece. Im leaning more towards Italy but shawn likes guam because there is incentives to go there. Any thoughts?

I'd take Italy or Spain it's beautiful there! Greece is great too. The great thing about Europe would be all the travel you could do because everything over there is so close. I wouldn't take Guam because of all the snakes but that's just me. We are in japan and I don't like it so much but I know a lot of people do if you like crowded places with nothing than cars and houses than japan is right for you lol expect if you get Okinawa but that's a different Japan anyways.

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