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Veiled threats: row over Islamic dress opens bitter divisions in France
posted to Religious Debates
in Religious Roundtable
on Jun. 26, 2009 at 10:08 PM
- 124 Replies
- 1009 Total Views
I know I'm sorry it's another Burka post...but this one I really wanted to show you all as well, because it has actual muslims in the story, not just the government fighting about if they should do it or not.
Veiled threats: row over Islamic dress opens bitter divisions in France
• Moves to ban Muslim face coverings gather force
• Human rights groups warn of growing discrimination
- guardian.co.uk, Friday 26 June 2009 19.09 BST
- Article history
In the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis, with its busy market, fast-food joints and bargain clothes shops, Angelica Winterstein only goes out once a week – and only if she really has to.
"I feel like I'm being judged walking down the street. People tut or spit. In a smart area west of Paris, one man stopped his car and shouted: 'Why don't you go back to where you came from?' But I'm French, I couldn't be more French," said the 23-year-old, who was born and raised in bourgeois Versailles.
Once a fervent Catholic, Winterstein converted to Islam at 18. Six months ago she began wearing a loose, floor-length black jilbab, showing only her expertly made-up face from eyebrows to chin. She now wants to add the final piece, and wear full niqab, covering her face and leaving just her eyes visible.
"But this week, after Sarkozy announced that full veils weren't welcome in France, things have got really difficult," she said. "As it is, people sometimes shout 'Ninja' at me. It's impossible to find a job – I'm a qualified childminder and get plenty of interviews because of my CV, but when people see me in person, they don't call back. It's difficult in this country, there's a certain mood in the air. I don't feel comfortable walking around."
This week, France plunged into another bitterly divisive national debate on Muslim women's clothing, reopening questions on how the country with western Europe's biggest Muslim community integrates Islam into its secular republic. A parliamentary inquiry is to examine how many women in France wear full Islamic veils or niqab before a decision is made over possibly banning such garments in the street. More than 50 MPs from across the political spectrum have called for restrictions on full veils, called "degrading", "submissive" and "coffins" by politicians. Yet the actual numbers of niqab wearers in France appears to be so small that TV news crews have struggled to find individuals to film. Muslim groups estimate that there are perhaps only a few hundred women fully covering themselves out of a Muslim population of over 5 million – often young French women, many of them converts.
That such a marginal issue can suddenly take centre stage in a country otherwise struggling with major issues of mass unemployment and protest over public sector reform shows how powerful the symbol of the headscarf and veil remains in France.
Human rights groups warned this week that the row over niqabs risks exacerbating the growing problem of discrimination against women wearing standard Muslim headscarves. Five years on from the heated national debate over France's 2004 law banning headscarves and all conspicuous religious symbols from state schools, there has been an increase in general discrimination against adult women who cover their heads.
"Women in standard headscarves have been refused access to voting booths, driving lessons, barred from their own wedding ceremonies at town halls, ejected from university classes and in one case, a woman in a bank was not allowed to withdraw cash from her own account at the counter. This is clear discrimination by people who wrongly use the school law to claim that France is a secular state that doesn't allow headscarves in public places. It's utterly illegal and the courts rule in our favour," said Renee Le Mignot, co-president of the Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples. "Our fear is that the current niqab debate is going to make this general discrimination worse."
Samy Debah, a history teacher who heads France's Collective against Islamophobia, said 80% of discrimination cases reported to his group involved women wearing standard headscarves.
He had rarely seen any instances of women wearing niqabs, even in the ethnically mixed north Paris suburb where he lives. "From our figures, the biggest discriminator against Muslim women is the state and state officials," he said. "What people have to understand is that the concept of French secularism is not anti-religion per se, it is supposed to be about respecting all religions."
The current initiative against full Islamic veils began in Venissieux, a leftwing area on the industrial outskirts of Lyon. Its communist mayor, André Gerin, led proposals for a clampdown, saying he saw increasing numbers of full veils in his constituency.
"I call them walking prisons, phantoms that go past us, it's that visual aspect that's an issue," Gerin said. "There's a malaise in the general population faced with the proliferation of these garments. I sense that on the part of Muslims, too."
Gerin said women in niqab posed "concrete problems" in daily life. "We had an issue in a school where a headteacher at the end of the school day didn't want to hand back two children to a phantom," he said. Gerin has refused to conduct the town-hall wedding of a woman wearing niqab. Another woman wearing a full veil was refused social housing by a landlord in the area. The mayor said that when women haven't removed their face covering, it has resulted in conflict with public officials who often felt insulted or under attack. But he denied stigmatising the wider Muslim population.
"The current situation [where women wear niqabs] is stigmatising Muslims," he said. His aim was to "establish a debate with the Muslim community, integrate Islam properly into French life" and expose fundamentalist practices.
Two previous calls for a law restricting full veils have been left to gather dust. This time, the debate is gathering force. There are divisions in the government itself – the feminist Muslim junior minister, Fadela Amara, supports a niqab ban while the immigration minister, Eric Besson, warns it would create unnecessary tension.
Horia Demiati, 30, a French financier who wears a standard headscarf with her business suits, said: "I really fear an increase in hatred." She recently won a discrimination case after she and her family, including a six-month baby, were refused access to a rural holiday apartment they had booked in the Vosges. The woman who refused them argued that she was a secular feminist and didn't want to see the headscarf, "an instrument of women's submission and oppression", in her establishment.
Demiati said: "This niqab debate is such a marginal issue, yet it risks detracting from the real issues in France."
Replies:
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 12:06 AM
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This reply has two parts. One question, one opinion. :)
Question: Please excuse my ignorance, but I think I'm missing something here. I was under the impression that women who decide to cover have many choices; cover only their hair, have only their faces showing or have only their eyes showing. I was under the impression that the burkas (blue colored full body covering with netted face) were something Muslim women in Afghanistan were forced to wear by the Taliban law. Is this not so? Do some women choose to cover themselves completely? I'm so confused. :)
Comment: I was reading the two articles and thinking that a woman should be able to darn well choose how she dresses, period. The only part that made me stop and think for a moment was the school teacher who was afraid to hand the children over to someone whom the teacher couldn't confirm the woman's identity. As a school teacher, I can that situation making me very nervous. Even by law, we can only release a child to someone who has been positively identified as someone on the "approved pick up list, such as parents, family, close friends, etc." There are so many freaks in the world, going after our kids. Who is to say some pedophile can't get their hands on a burka and pick up children, with no way for the teacher to positively identify the person.
What would be the solution of letting a woman follow her chosen path, while following the rules made to keep kids safe? That's a tough call.
As for the "The woman who refused them argued that she was a secular feminist and didn't want to see the headscarf, "an instrument of women's submission and oppression", in her establishment." That's a woman who has some serious personal issues that she needs to deal with. jeesh!
The Token Taoist/Buddhist/Pagan, Independent Thinker, White Witch, Healer, Personal Path Architect.
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 2:56 AM
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Quoting zen-o-matic:
This reply has two parts. One question, one opinion. :)
Question: Please excuse my ignorance, but I think I'm missing something here. I was under the impression that women who decide to cover have many choices; cover only their hair, have only their faces showing or have only their eyes showing. I was under the impression that the burkas (blue colored full body covering with netted face) were something Muslim women in Afghanistan were forced to wear by the Taliban law. Is this not so? Do some women choose to cover themselves completely? I'm so confused. :)
Women who choose to cover do have many choices on how to cover so long as the follow the rule of thumb that clothes should be loose, cover everything but the nads and face and clothes should not be see through. It is true the blue burqas you see are those worn by women in Afghanistan..and are not seen anywhere else. Some women who are more modest than some, and particularly in certain societies..choose to cover their eyes, their hands as well..so no part of their body is viewed at all. The covering of the eyes is mesh in which the woman can see out but no one can see her eyes. This is quite common here in Saudi. But even with identification purposes through airports, at the time of introduction and getting to know a potential husband, or in women-only areas it is not socially appropriate to wear, nor is it encouraged. Sometimes women wear it because it falls into cultural norms, sometimes they wear it strictly to observe the modesty factor that Islam calls for and feels more comfortable with this total covering in particular settings, some choose to wear it as a pure form of worship as female companions around the Prophet used to cover like this. So it is a choice, not mandated by religion, but made permissible to cover the face. Are some women oppressed and are made to wear it by their fathers, husbands? Sure..but is this the norm? NO. In the West women who wear the hijab or the niqab (head cover or face veil..and burqa-that covers the eyes) are those who are brave enough to wear it and tend NOT to feel oppressed at all.
Comment: I was reading the two articles and thinking that a woman should be able to darn well choose how she dresses, period. The only part that made me stop and think for a moment was the school teacher who was afraid to hand the children over to someone whom the teacher couldn't confirm the woman's identity. As a school teacher, I can that situation making me very nervous. Even by law, we can only release a child to someone who has been positively identified as someone on the "approved pick up list, such as parents, family, close friends, etc." There are so many freaks in the world, going after our kids. Who is to say some pedophile can't get their hands on a burka and pick up children, with no way for the teacher to positively identify the person. I totally agree. There is no religious justification of hiding one's identity, that is not the purpose of covering at all. Even if it was a male teacher and the only male teacher in the building and if she was going to pick up her child..she still can't justify not showing her face in a situation like that.
What would be the solution of letting a woman follow her chosen path, while following the rules made to keep kids safe? That's a tough call. Have someone else pick up the kid from school. Seriously. If she is so against revealing it then she shouldn't be responsible for picking up her child, unless their is another female in the building that confirm her identity. But to be fair, if the eyes are revealed, and their is daily contact then a woman is recognized quite easily. I go into certain shops with my niqab meaning face covered and eyes revealed..the men who work in them all know me before I open my mouth. There are other identifying things of a person than ones face, but I see the necessity of being assured of one's identity before releasing a kid..thats just common sense.
As for the "The woman who refused them argued that she was a secular feminist and didn't want to see the headscarf, "an instrument of women's submission and oppression", in her establishment." That's a woman who has some serious personal issues that she needs to deal with. jeesh! Yeah, I agree with this here..but its a fear that stems from not understanding. By they way zen, there is no ignorance from your end..its intelligent to ask and ignorant to assume, so I thank you for doing that..for asking.
Does all that I offered make sense?
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 7:21 AM
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Quoting zen-o-matic:
I was under the impression that the burkas (blue colored full body covering with netted face) were something Muslim women in Afghanistan were forced to wear by the Taliban law. Is this not so?
It is because of women being forced to wear this type of burka by the Taliban in Afghanistan that there is such a negative reaction towards it in the western world. I think the fact that so many women there are no longer wearing it proves it was forced upon them and not their free choice. This doesn't mean that in a free society it shouldn't be allowed. Lots of things we might not personally like are allowed.
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 2:11 PM
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Quoting muhajjirah:
Some women who are more modest than some, and particularly in certain societies..choose to cover their eyes, their hands as well..so no part of their body is viewed at all. The covering of the eyes is mesh in which the woman can see out but no one can see her eyes. This is quite common here in Saudi.
Sometimes women wear it because it falls into cultural norms, sometimes they wear it strictly to observe the modesty factor that Islam calls for and feels more comfortable with this total covering in particular settings, some choose to wear it as a pure form of worship as female companions around the Prophet used to cover like this.
Ah! I learned something new today... thank you! ;)
I had never heard of a burqa until the war in Afghanistan started. When the U.S. first went to Afghanistan, the Western media made a big deal about the women being forced to wear the burqas by the Taliban. They had a one hour TV show, focusing on the hardships of women 'being forced to hide behind' the burqas. How difficult it was for female surgeons to operate behind the mesh, how children would get separated from their mothers in the streets and be traumatized because they could not find their mothers in the sea of burqas. How difficult it was to perform any simple tasks while wrapped in this cumbersome outfit. It was a very heart wrenching show. Many American women were outraged that our sisters in Afghanistan were forced into live under such horrible conditions. Then when the Taliban lost power, the news was filled with scenes of uncovered Afghani women celebrating in the streets, throwing their burkas on the ground and dancing on them, burning them and generally celebrating freedom. The news also explained that some women still wore burkas because they feared the Taliban would regain control and punish them for taking off the total coverings. This is essentially the only information on burqas that the majority of Americans have been given (that I know of), except for those who choose to dig deeper into the subject. ;)
But even with identification purposes through airports, at the time of introduction and getting to know a potential husband, or in women-only areas it is not socially appropriate to wear, nor is it encouraged.
It sounds like this has been well thought out already to avoid the problems of society from interfering with one's ability to follow their path. Although there are women in my area who wear the niqab and hijab, I have not seen any here who wear the burqa. I believe there was a court case in the state of Florida of a woman who refused to remove her niqab for a driver's license photo, and was refused a drivers license because of it.
Have someone else pick up the kid from school.
Simple solution!! Love it! lol
Yeah, I agree with this here..but its a fear that stems from not understanding
I TOTALLY agree! Ignorance based fear is the root of soooo many problems. For example, based on just the news reports, I was heartbroken that women wore burqas. Now that I am educated, I see there is more to it, and burqas are not always a forced way of life.
I run into the same ignorance based fear with my path. I get a lot of many negative things, simply because I am not of one of the mainstream religions., even though religions have more in common than not. I love the lessons of all of love based religions teachers (PBU them all) and have many Holy Books, which I read.
By they way zen, there is no ignorance from your end..its intelligent to ask and ignorant to assume, so I thank you for doing that..for asking.
Well, thank you for your offer to educate!! I absolutely love learning about how others live/worship/think/feel. I used to teach along side a Muslim friend who covered. We would have wonderful conversations, asking each other questions about the others faith and practices. Questions I would feel uncomfortable asking anyone less than a close friend. She felt the same. Unfortunately, she moved away a while ago. sigh. So thank you for sharing your views. Its also nice to hear from someone of a different country/culture as well. I'm sure Saudi Muslims probably have somewhat different views and practices than American Muslims, based on each country's laws/customs and such?
Does all that I offered make sense?
Yes. Thank you!! Be Blessed. :) I appreciate the learning opportunity. :) I am very eclectic in my path, (Pagan/Buddhist/Toa/Healing Witch) but if I can help you with answers as you have help me, feel free to ask!
The Token Taoist/Buddhist/Pagan, Independent Thinker, White Witch, Healer, Personal Path Architect.
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 2:16 PM
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Quoting radavis777:
It is because of women being forced to wear this type of burka by the Taliban in Afghanistan that there is such a negative reaction towards it in the western world. I think the fact that so many women there are no longer wearing it proves it was forced upon them and not their free choice. This doesn't mean that in a free society it shouldn't be allowed. Lots of things we might not personally like are allowed.
I thought that too Radavis. But now I wonder... does it seem like so many were against it because that is what the media filmed? Did they only film the ones who were unwilling to wear the burqa? How many others choose to wear it? The minority? The majority?
I've seen the media twist things to a fantastic level so many times. Just watch news coverage of a Pagan festival. The only ones they want to film are the goof balls wearing fairy wings and speaking like their on drugs. They don't want to interview me... I'm just a normal country mom, who goes to the festivals for the food and rituals and vendors browsing. ;)
So the burqa questions leaves me wondering after these posts, how much is reality and how much is media hype?
The Token Taoist/Buddhist/Pagan, Independent Thinker, White Witch, Healer, Personal Path Architect.
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 4:06 PM
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UGHHHHHHHH I've been sitting here for 40 minutes looking for pictures to show the islamic dress over the last century and I hit spell check and LOST IT ALL. UGHHHHHHH. ok going to look again.
Ottomon Empire Jerusalem 1910-1914
Afghanistan 1973
Almost all women wore the chadri on the rare occasions they appeared on the streets of Kabul
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 4:15 PM
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Well, I am the only board member (i think) in favor of banning burqas, so I will only make one comment:
People are not given a right to feel comfortable. This woman made a choice to wear something that is:
A. Out of place in her culture, and
B. Not religiously necessary.
She made that choice. I am not saying in any way that the people showing their opinion about her choice of dress are in any way "right," but they do have a right to their opinion. There is a lot of controversy surrounding Islam, especially in europe, where many fear change and see the growing number of muslims as a threat. Again, I am not saying these people are right for feeling this way, but they do have a right to their feelings.
Is Niqab really the "standard" like the HR groups are saying?
.
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 4:19 PM
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Moslem woman in purdah walking w. others on street.
Location: Lahore, India Date taken: 1946 
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 4:43 PM
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hey zen, i cut some of our comments out to keep just what was relevant to what you and i responded too..so this doesn't become extra long :-)
Quoting zen-o-matic:
I had never heard of a burqa until the war in Afghanistan started. When the U.S. first went to Afghanistan, the Western media made a big deal about the women being forced to wear the burqas by the Taliban. They had a one hour TV show, focusing on the hardships of women 'being forced to hide behind' the burqas. How difficult it was for female surgeons to operate behind the mesh, how children would get separated from their mothers in the streets and be traumatized because they could not find their mothers in the sea of burqas. How difficult it was to perform any simple tasks while wrapped in this cumbersome outfit. It was a very heart wrenching show. Many American women were outraged that our sisters in Afghanistan were forced into live under such horrible conditions. Then when the Taliban lost power, the news was filled with scenes of uncovered Afghani women celebrating in the streets, throwing their burkas on the ground and dancing on them, burning them and generally celebrating freedom. The news also explained that some women still wore burkas because they feared the Taliban would regain control and punish them for taking off the total coverings. This is essentially the only information on burqas that the majority of Americans have been given (that I know of), except for those who choose to dig deeper into the subject. ;) Yeah, in all honesty, I hated seeing those images of the Afghani women too. It killed me, these are my sisters in faith and in humanity, and I too had to dig deeper, to find out what the real deal of the afghani women and their treatment really is there, because I know this isn't Islam. so it sucks because it makes what I stand for look like the guilty party when in fact its ignorant people who proclaim my religion as theirs.
It sounds like this has been well thought out already to avoid the problems of society from interfering with one's ability to follow their path. Although there are women in my area who wear the niqab and hijab, I have not seen any here who wear the burqa. I believe there was a court case in the state of Florida of a woman who refused to remove her niqab for a driver's license photo, and was refused a drivers license because of it. Yeah, this story bothered me too. Because the Muslim woman wearing the Niqab..although she wanted to wear it wasn't educated enough in the religion to understand its exceptions where it can be considered as even forbidden. Not to say that Saudi is the ideal in Islam, but with the niqab issue where many people feel very strongly about it as a positive thing-even in Saudi it is mandated that women have photo id's without the covering.
I TOTALLY agree! Ignorance based fear is the root of soooo many problems. For example, based on just the news reports, I was heartbroken that women wore burqas. Now that I am educated, I see there is more to it, and burqas are not always a forced way of life.
I run into the same ignorance based fear with my path. I get a lot of many negative things, simply because I am not of one of the mainstream religions., even though religions have more in common than not. I love the lessons of all of love based religions teachers (PBU them all) and have many Holy Books, which I read. What does PBU mean? IN Islamic reads often times after Prophet's names initals of PBUH is used meaning 'peace be upon him' so if something might read: "Muslims love Jesus, pbuh, very much." Does PBU mean the same thing or something similar?
Well, thank you for your offer to educate!! I absolutely love learning about how others live/worship/think/feel. I used to teach along side a Muslim friend who covered. We would have wonderful conversations, asking each other questions about the others faith and practices. Questions I would feel uncomfortable asking anyone less than a close friend. She felt the same. Unfortunately, she moved away a while ago. sigh. So thank you for sharing your views. Don't thank me, my pleasure and feel free to pm me anytime if something's up you want to know but don't feel comfortable to post here on the forum.
Its also nice to hear from someone of a different country/culture as well. I'm sure Saudi Muslims probably have somewhat different views and practices than American Muslims, based on each country's laws/customs and such? LOL. Actually Im not Saudi-neither is anyone in my family! I am American/Egyptian. Born, raised and lived in the US all my life up until when we moved here to Saudi for my hsuband's position lil over 2 years ago. But yeah you are right. American Muslims and Saudi Muslims have their own cultures and their are things in this culture I find backwards and never expect to embrace that are not part of Islam and Im sure Saudi Muslims could say that about American Muslims too..religion is shared..but in Islam diversity is embraced so long as the two main sources of Islam are not contradicted to one's culture. Saudi is not based on pure Islamic Law, and there are some things in the US which I find more in tune with Islam than here in Saudi. :-)
Does all that I offered make sense?
Yes. Thank you!! Be Blessed. :) I appreciate the learning opportunity. :) I am very eclectic in my path, (Pagan/Buddhist/Toa/Healing Witch) but if I can help you with answers as you have help me, feel free to ask!
I would love that, thank you! Have you signed up for the personal paths? I bet with your eclectic approach many if not all would find your style and ways quite interesting :-)
peace to you zen!
muhajjirah./.jj
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- by on Jun. 27, 2009 at 4:48 PM
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Quoting genypher:
Well, I am the only board member (i think) in favor of banning burqas, so I will only make one comment:
People are not given a right to feel comfortable. This woman made a choice to wear something that is:
A. Out of place in her culture, and
B. Not religiously necessary.
She made that choice. I am not saying in any way that the people showing their opinion about her choice of dress are in any way "right," but they do have a right to their opinion. There is a lot of controversy surrounding Islam, especially in europe, where many fear change and see the growing number of muslims as a threat. Again, I am not saying these people are right for feeling this way, but they do have a right to their feelings.
Is Niqab really the "standard" like the HR groups are saying?
.
They have a right to their feelings, but they have the responsibility to learn about a culture to negate stereotypes and prejudices. I see too many people ignore the second part.
I am so liberal that I don't follow much of a dress code. I don't wear shorts, but thats about it LOL. HOWEVER, I believe in people's individual rights to dress as they wish. France has Nude beaches, so they allow one extreme .. . . as long as someone can find alternatives, why can't they dress in full burqa and jilbab. Culturally appropriate? We live in a global world. I do think if you have a democracy (which is still what France is) then they need to allow freedom for individual expression which includes clothes. (Of course if you want my personal opinion, this extends to strongly islamic countries as well. I don't approve how they force everyone to wear a hijab either--but they are kingdom's).
We are in a religious discussion group learning about each other and trying to get a better global view on different religions. People don't have to join a group but they can just say "excuse maam, I have a question that I hope you can clarify. Why are you wearing a full headress"
Asking questions isn't ignorant--feeling scared isn't ignorant-- not asking a question and believing the worst without knowing IS.
~Zeenat~
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