Being a gay Christian isn’t easy, but being a gay Seventh-day Adventist is an especially difficult path because Adventism, to most, is more than a belief system; it’s also a close-knit community of belonging. The unique setting of Adventism, a worldwide denomination with 16 million members with distinct cultural markers, heightens this conflict. In many ways tangible and intangible, being Adventist is much more than subscribing to a set of beliefs. It is a way of life, a community not easily left.
Most Adventists follow strict dietary guidelines, attend church schools, go to church hospitals, and often have few friends outside of the church. By definition they attend church on Saturdays not Sunday, a practice which separates them even from other Christians. For someone immersed in the church, the culture and DNA of Adventism is almost like an ethnicity. They can no easier stop being Adventist than they can stop being gay.
For all its apparent peculiarities, Adventism does not deviate from the Christian mainstream in its condemnation of homosexuality. This leaves gay Adventists with a gut-wrenching decision. They have to choose between remaining a member in good standing in the church they love and the possibility of an intimate, loving relationship. Or is there a way to reconcile their faith and identity?
The film explores this intersection of faith, identity, and sexuality through the stories of gay and lesbian Adventists who are struggling with their desire to belong to the church they know and love and their need to be fully accepted for who they are.
Discuss!
Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm not behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Oops, I didn't mean to say you wern't brave! I see how it came across that way.
You sound a lot like the way I am. I also practice what the church culturally teaches and like you, more of an action person. I'd rather volunteer and help people then convert or save them or get them to live the way the church does. I'm currently very frustrated with the church, because so much money comes in rather then goes out and so much focus is placed on "saving" rather then changing people and making a difference. For example, my church makes 14,000 dollars a WEEK. That's almost enough to support a family for a year or at least assist them. I understand that so much goes into the building, and the staff, but why? I do like the social aspect of church though, meeting people a couple times a week. But, I am almost to the point where I no longer want to go to a service (I get very little out of a sermon) and find a group who has a common task to better the community.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Quoting 12hellokitty:
Don't know much about Seventh Day Adventists, but it sounds like this person is looking for some type of loophole. This is just one more example of those with in the gay community seeking approval for a lifestyle that goes against the teaching of their faith.
It is NOT a lifestyle. Its not a "choice". DO you think being born white with blue eyes is a lifestyle? Well, being Gay or Lesbian is something you are born with just like being white with blue eyes..
A gay person does not TRY to go against the "teachings" of a church. And we don't even know if they ARE "teachings" or just a recent prejudice devised by people who are afraid of anything 'different.
I kind of figured, but wasn't sure:)
Yeah- I'm kind of of the can't-stand-most-sermons frame of mind at the moment. I heard a TERRIBLE one about god being taken off money a few weeks ago- but then last week, a friend who almost died and didn't simply got up and told her story- and I think they ought to do more of that, really. It's what I think the church is really going for and for some reason finds themselves distracted from far too often.
As far as gay adventists go, there are a lot of them- and most just keep it completely under the radar. There are so many who just don't know how to function away from the church- and I think that is a legacy of its own. Codependence on religion- woo!
Quoting Angeldolphine:Oops, I didn't mean to say you wern't brave! I see how it came across that way.
You sound a lot like the way I am. I also practice what the church culturally teaches and like you, more of an action person. I'd rather volunteer and help people then convert or save them or get them to live the way the church does. I'm currently very frustrated with the church, because so much money comes in rather then goes out and so much focus is placed on "saving" rather then changing people and making a difference. For example, my church makes 14,000 dollars a WEEK. That's almost enough to support a family for a year or at least assist them. I understand that so much goes into the building, and the staff, but why? I do like the social aspect of church though, meeting people a couple times a week. But, I am almost to the point where I no longer want to go to a service (I get very little out of a sermon) and find a group who has a common task to better the community.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Why/How did I quote myself? Weird.
Quoting Raintree:
Quoting Raintree:Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm not behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
I agree! I would rather hear stories about how God is working in their lives, messages from people in the congregation, then the sermons from the pastors. Kind of find it interesting how very little of the Old Testament is put into practice except when it comes to tithing which comes from Malachi. The prophetic books are never talked about otherwise (Isaiah sometimes) My pastor keeps talking about money after or during every single service. Sorry...that really turns me off. I'd rather see something like community evening meals with donations and those who can't donate can either donate food or help make and serve the meals. They could even have a garden. They can have inexpensive childcare or something like that. Why not actually put the buildings to use? Instead of focus on saving people, I'd rather see focus on discipleship and counseling. What's the point of "saving" if nothing changes?
Quoting Raintree:I kind of figured, but wasn't sure:)
Yeah- I'm kind of of the can't-stand-most-sermons frame of mind at the moment. I heard a TERRIBLE one about god being taken off money a few weeks ago- but then last week, a friend who almost died and didn't simply got up and told her story- and I think they ought to do more of that, really. It's what I think the church is really going for and for some reason finds themselves distracted from far too often.
As far as gay adventists go, there are a lot of them- and most just keep it completely under the radar. There are so many who just don't know how to function away from the church- and I think that is a legacy of its own. Codependence on religion- woo!
Quoting Angeldolphine:Oops, I didn't mean to say you wern't brave! I see how it came across that way.
You sound a lot like the way I am. I also practice what the church culturally teaches and like you, more of an action person. I'd rather volunteer and help people then convert or save them or get them to live the way the church does. I'm currently very frustrated with the church, because so much money comes in rather then goes out and so much focus is placed on "saving" rather then changing people and making a difference. For example, my church makes 14,000 dollars a WEEK. That's almost enough to support a family for a year or at least assist them. I understand that so much goes into the building, and the staff, but why? I do like the social aspect of church though, meeting people a couple times a week. But, I am almost to the point where I no longer want to go to a service (I get very little out of a sermon) and find a group who has a common task to better the community.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Quoting Angeldolphine:Hmmm...interesting point! That makes sense, that homesexuality is worse because it's less common and when it is seen, it is more obvious. As for race, I'm curious how they backed that up biblically.
Yep, exsperiences are different for different personalities. I started out more like you, living a double life so to speak. I'm braver now. I think a lot of it has to do with the difference in thinking as an adult vrs a teenager.
Quoting Raintree:Well, I know why homosexuality is considered 'worse'- because it's less common. Things that are 'other' to most of the group tend to be singled out and pointed at and complained about, etc. It's interesting to note that similar arguments against offering membership to other races in churches have met with similar conversations in the past. I think it might be a growing pain- or a birthing pain- or whatever sort of metaphor we want to use.
The experiences of individuals may differ, as well. Some may be ready to launch out on their own and leave. Maybe there is some anger there- but often, they just weren't really 'convinced' all along. This is how my sister was. She is very much non-Adventist today, but she wasn't worried about freaking out the family. And that has happened. I'm different. I conform because I don't want my mom to do that worrying thing that she does. It isn't worth it for me to hurt her at this point in time. Plus, we live far apart, and it becomes easier to basically live two separate lives. Dishonest, but easier on everyone. Basically- different experience for different people. Some find it very hard to leave.
Quoting Angeldolphine:I agree. I don't know why homosexuality is worse then adultery or any of the other sexual sins. But, I do believe that each religious community does have the right to decide who they will accept in their community, unless it believes in something like human sacrifice, child rape, that sort of thing. That's freedom of religion.
I actually grew up in a close community. Super conservative, very judgemental. I left the community and my family and have very little to do with them. I have experienced shunning etc. It's not as severe as some groups, I can go back, my parents will talk to me, but its enough to understand what it's like to be different and not accepted by your family. I have very different beliefs from my own family and I understand how hard it is to think differently from how you were raised. I do feel that my family has the same right to believe what they want and to practice what they want as do I.
Quoting Raintree:All fine and dandy, until you realize that one 'sin' is being scrutinized, while others are being overlooked on a daily/hourly basis.
Frankly, I think if you're a member of a denomination- have paid tithe- have spent your life there, you have every right to begin this discussion just as the general conference has every right to hold a vote on yet another 'fundamental belief'.
Quoting Angeldolphine:You have a choice to decide who you want to be, regardless if you are in a close community that's hard to get out of. You can choose to leave that community. You have to choose which is more important to you, to love someone of the same sex and have a relationship with that person, or the relationship with the closed community. It would be wrong to enforce your own views on a religious group that views homosexuality as a sin in the same way, it is wrong for them to treat a homosexual person like shit. I believe it's also wrong to try to change state and federal laws preventing them from being together, but it is not wrong to shun them or throw them out of your church if your religion teaches it is wrong. They can make rules for their religious group or community but not outside of the group or community like a lot of Christians want to do.
Quoting lga1965:
Quoting 12hellokitty:
Don't know much about Seventh Day Adventists, but it sounds like this person is looking for some type of loophole. This is just one more example of those with in the gay community seeking approval for a lifestyle that goes against the teaching of their faith.
It is NOT a lifestyle. Its not a "choice". DO you think being born white with blue eyes is a lifestyle? Well, being Gay or Lesbian is something you are born with just like being white with blue eyes..
A gay person does not TRY to go against the "teachings" of a church. And we don't even know if they ARE "teachings" or just a recent prejudice devised by people who are afraid of anything 'different.
Having blue eyes doesn't require thought or action, being homosexual does. As for it going against the teaching of SDA I have no idea. SDA seem to be focused on making up their own rules as they go.
Quoting Raintree:
Well, I don't know what to say about your last comment. I'll try- I'm 37. It isn't that I'm not brave- rather, I don't want my mother (who was a single mom of a single daughter- me- for most of her life- we have a combined family) to have a heart attack (which the ladies in my family have a history of suddenly doing at young ages, and for reasons related to stress rather than diet or weight or whatever). I'm not kidding, I actually worry about this, and I have a pretty good reason to do so, historically speaking. It isn't about *me* being brave or not- it's about *me* not wanting to hurt my mother in *that* way. I don't find it an important enough part of my life- especially since I still practice what the church culturally teaches. And I practice those things, because I find them a healthy way to organize my life.
It isn't always about being un-brave but about being protective of others. Other people in my family know- my father, for example. My step and half-siblings. My husband who is in the same place I am. Friends that I'm comfortable with talking about spiritual things with (and I've never been that comfortable- it is too personal for me). I'm an actions person. I just hope to help someone, at least once in awhile- and I think I do. Hauling people down on their knees has never been part of my repertoire- so I'm not behaving in any different way, and I don't intend to.
Your mother must be a very special person to have raised such a caring daughter.
Is Yoga a religion?
- Raintree
on May. 5, 2012 at 9:44 AM