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'I'm spiritual but not religious' is a cop-out

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My Take: 'I'm spiritual but not religious' is a cop-out

By Alan Miller, Special to CNN

Editor's note: Alan Miller is Director of The New York Salon and Co-Founder of London's Old Truman Brewery. He is speaking at The Battle of Ideas at London's Barbican in October.

By Alan Miller, Special to CNN

The increasingly common refrain that "I'm spiritual, but not religious," represents some of the most retrogressive aspects of contemporary society. The spiritual but not religious "movement" - an inappropriate term as that would suggest some collective, organizational aspect - highlights the implosion of belief that has struck at the heart of Western society.

Spiritual but not religious people are especially prevalent in the younger population in the United States, although a recent study has argued that it is not so much that people have stopped believing in God, but rather have drifted from formal institutions.

It seems that just being a part of a religious institution is nowadays associated negatively, with everything from the Religious Right to child abuse, back to the Crusades and of course with terrorism today.

Those in the spiritual-but-not-religious camp are peddling the notion that by being independent - by choosing an "individual relationship" to some concept of "higher power", energy, oneness or something-or-other - they are in a deeper, more profound relationship than one that is coerced via a large institution like a church.

That attitude fits with the message we are receiving more and more that "feeling" something somehow is more pure and perhaps, more "true" than having to fit in with the doctrine, practices, rules and observations of a formal institution that are handed down to us.

The trouble is that "spiritual but not religious" offers no positive exposition or understanding or explanation of a body of belief or set of principles of any kind.

What is it, this "spiritual" identity as such? What is practiced? What is believed?

The accusation is often leveled that such questions betray a rigidity of outlook, all a tad doctrinaire and rather old-fashioned.

But when the contemporary fashion is for an abundance of relativist "truths" and what appears to be in the ascendancy is how one "feels" and even governments aim to have a "happiness agenda," desperate to fill a gap at the heart of civic society, then being old-fashioned may not be such a terrible accusation.

It is within the context of today's anti-big, anti-discipline, anti-challenging climate - in combination with a therapeutic turn in which everything can be resolved through addressing my inner existential being - that the spiritual but not religious outlook has flourished.

The boom in megachurches merely reflect this sidelining of serious religious study for networking, drop-in centers and positive feelings.

Those that identify themselves, in our multi-cultural, hyphenated-American world often go for a smorgasbord of pick-and-mix choices.

A bit of Yoga here, a Zen idea there, a quote from Taoism and a Kabbalah class, a bit of Sufism and maybe some Feing Shui but not generally a reading and appreciation of The Bhagavad Gita, the Karma Sutra or the Qur'an, let alone The Old or New Testament.

So what, one may ask?

Christianity has been interwoven and seminal in Western history and culture. As Harold Bloom pointed out in his book on the King James Bible, everything from the visual arts, to Bach and our canon of literature generally would not be possible without this enormously important work.

Indeed, it was through the desire to know and read the Bible that reading became a reality for the masses - an entirely radical moment that had enormous consequences for humanity.

Moreover, the spiritual but not religious reflect the "me" generation of self-obsessed, truth-is-whatever-you-feel-it-to-be thinking, where big, historic, demanding institutions that have expectations about behavior, attitudes and observance and rules are jettisoned yet nothing positive is put in replacement.

The idea of sin has always been accompanied by the sense of what one could do to improve oneself and impact the world.

Yet the spiritual-but-not-religious outlook sees the human as one that simply wants to experience "nice things" and "feel better." There is little of transformation here and nothing that points to any kind of project that can inspire or transform us.

At the heart of the spiritual but not religious attitude is an unwillingness to take a real position. Influenced by the contribution of modern science, there is a reluctance to advocate a literalist translation of the world.

But these people will not abandon their affiliation to the sense that there is "something out there," so they do not go along with a rationalist and materialistic explanation of the world, in which humans are responsible to themselves and one another for their actions - and for the future.

Theirs is a world of fence-sitting, not-knowingess, but not-trying-ness either. Take a stand, I say. Which one is it? A belief in God and Scripture or a commitment to the Enlightenment ideal of human-based knowledge, reason and action? Being spiritual but not religious avoids having to think too hard about having to decide.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Alan Miller.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/29/my-take-im-spiritual-not-religious-is-a-cop-out/?hpt=hp_c2

 

by on Oct. 1, 2012 at 7:59 AM
Replies (221-230):
little.worthen
by Tess on Oct. 3, 2012 at 11:53 AM
Oh jeez, all these things are taken out of context. When I mentioned the wood she asked me if I owned anything like that, which I said I had the wood, which she then tried telling me was a graven image along with my coins which I told her she was incorrect.
I already sai I do care personally, but that doesn't mean I preach to people. Irl I keep my opinion to myself. I only state it here because this is the Internet and I can.

I have no intention of even talking to ou any further. You aren't trying to get answers to questions, you aren't even trying to be nice about it. No matter what I say to you, all you want to do is argue and I'm not going to argue with you. This isn't an interesting conversation or debate. This is you trying to be the big BAMF and put me down because you don't agree with my opinion.

Find someone else who will feed into your crap. I'm done


Quoting Jalestra:

Are we even reading the same thread? You've only mentioned it several times. Let's see, Page 2, Page 8 (where by the way you stated quite clearly "I do care"), a second time on Page 8, top of Page 10 where you said you own a piece of wood that says "I believe in Christ", a third post on Page 10 where you said "I'm entitled to my beliefs", the top of Page 12...

Are you ever going to answer the question? 


Quoting little.worthen:

I haven't even ever mentioned my religion... You do even know what it is



Quoting Jalestra:

I am not being rude, I'm asking you to justify your statement that religion is necessary, but to do so without making it all about YOUR religion.

"Most people" who are spiritual without religion do NOT necessarily believe in God and Jesus, and I think that's a heck of a statement to make considering there is nothing out there to prove that statement. And people think you're arrogant because they ask a question and you make it about your beliefs or your situation as if that applies to everyone, and still never answer the question: Why is religion necessary? Not why is YOUR religion, but why is religion in general necessary? What does religion bring to the table?

We get that you believe in YOUR religion, but what does religion in general give to you? What does it provide that is necessary? Justifying it with "the bible says so" to a bunch of people who don't always believe in the Bible is not a good answer, it doesn't tell us what religion does, what purpose it does or should serve, why it's necessary and why people can't be spiritually connected without religion.




Quoting little.worthen:

You seem to be the only one being rude to me..





And I already said how most people who are "spiritual without religion" believe in God and Jesus Christ (which is what Christian means) but they don't follow what God or Jesus Christ tell people to do. So they aren't really Christian, and that's how all the debating started.





And I do care personally for the souls of others but I don't mind of you don't believe the same thing. The only reason I keep bringing things up is because people keep quoting me and I politely respond. Should I ignore people because my opinion isn't very popular? That's not very fair is it. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, or you think I'm arrogant, then stop quoting me.











Quoting Jalestra:

"Butting In" suggests I wasn't invited, public forum is an invitation to everyone. And no, it wasn't going good for you, since most people seem to think that you are being arrogant. It didn't "turn" into Christianity, you said it yourself several times that YOU were talking about Christianity. We were talking spirituality vs religion, ANY kind. 

You obviously DO care, since you keep bringing up what makes a "right and proper" Christian, the truth is, there are at least 15 types of Christianity that I know of off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain there are A LOT more than that. You've been making a case for your personal flavor the whole time, which means you are focusing on ONE thing. You refuse to address how organized religion is so important considering that there are many different religions and even with them they cannot meet the requirements of a majority of these women posting here. You keep bringing up ONE thing, over and over, The fact is, though, obviously even your flavor isn't the great one since many of these women aren't convinced by your posts, and because there are again, tons of other Christian options. 

What has been asked of you, over and over, is why religion is important, not why YOURS is. You've essentially stated that the accoutrements (baptism, gathering, etc) are important because of your book, but you haven't justified that statement. We keep asking you to, and you keep bringing in YOUR beliefs as if they are the deciding the factor.And then everyone calls you arrogant.

I think most of us are interested in a good answer, you however are just focused on your particular flavor and not on the question: Why is religion, of ANY kind, necessary? Why can't people come to their beliefs on their own terms?



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punky3175
by on Oct. 3, 2012 at 12:16 PM
1 mom liked this

 I absolutely LOVED that movie and now I want to watch it again.

Quoting backtomommy:

i love this quote,saw it on the movie stigmata and it is truly how i feel."The kingdom of God is inside you and all around you,it is not in buildings made of wood and stone.Split a piece of wood,I am there.Lift a stone,and I am with you.There is no judgement in my belief,that one is better than the other.People kill in the name of God because of their religion.

 

backtomommy
by New Member on Oct. 3, 2012 at 12:41 PM


Quoting little.worthen:

Oh jeez, all these things are taken out of context. When I mentioned the wood she asked me if I owned anything like that, which I said I had the wood, which she then tried telling me was a graven image along with my coins which I told her she was incorrect.
I already sai I do care personally, but that doesn't mean I preach to people. Irl I keep my opinion to myself. I only state it here because this is the Internet and I can.

I have no intention of even talking to ou any further. You aren't trying to get answers to questions, you aren't even trying to be nice about it. No matter what I say to you, all you want to do is argue and I'm not going to argue with you. This isn't an interesting conversation or debate. This is you trying to be the big BAMF and put me down because you don't agree with my opinion.

Find someone else who will feed into your crap. I'm done


Quoting Jalestra:

Are we even reading the same thread? You've only mentioned it several times. Let's see, Page 2, Page 8 (where by the way you stated quite clearly "I do care"), a second time on Page 8, top of Page 10 where you said you own a piece of wood that says "I believe in Christ", a third post on Page 10 where you said "I'm entitled to my beliefs", the top of Page 12...

Are you ever going to answer the question? 


Quoting little.worthen:

I haven't even ever mentioned my religion... You do even know what it is



Quoting Jalestra:

I am not being rude, I'm asking you to justify your statement that religion is necessary, but to do so without making it all about YOUR religion.

"Most people" who are spiritual without religion do NOT necessarily believe in God and Jesus, and I think that's a heck of a statement to make considering there is nothing out there to prove that statement. And people think you're arrogant because they ask a question and you make it about your beliefs or your situation as if that applies to everyone, and still never answer the question: Why is religion necessary? Not why is YOUR religion, but why is religion in general necessary? What does religion bring to the table?

We get that you believe in YOUR religion, but what does religion in general give to you? What does it provide that is necessary? Justifying it with "the bible says so" to a bunch of people who don't always believe in the Bible is not a good answer, it doesn't tell us what religion does, what purpose it does or should serve, why it's necessary and why people can't be spiritually connected without religion.

 



Quoting little.worthen:

You seem to be the only one being rude to me..





And I already said how most people who are "spiritual without religion" believe in God and Jesus Christ (which is what Christian means) but they don't follow what God or Jesus Christ tell people to do. So they aren't really Christian, and that's how all the debating started.





And I do care personally for the souls of others but I don't mind of you don't believe the same thing. The only reason I keep bringing things up is because people keep quoting me and I politely respond. Should I ignore people because my opinion isn't very popular? That's not very fair is it. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, or you think I'm arrogant, then stop quoting me.











Quoting Jalestra:

"Butting In" suggests I wasn't invited, public forum is an invitation to everyone. And no, it wasn't going good for you, since most people seem to think that you are being arrogant. It didn't "turn" into Christianity, you said it yourself several times that YOU were talking about Christianity. We were talking spirituality vs religion, ANY kind. 

You obviously DO care, since you keep bringing up what makes a "right and proper" Christian, the truth is, there are at least 15 types of Christianity that I know of off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain there are A LOT more than that. You've been making a case for your personal flavor the whole time, which means you are focusing on ONE thing. You refuse to address how organized religion is so important considering that there are many different religions and even with them they cannot meet the requirements of a majority of these women posting here. You keep bringing up ONE thing, over and over, The fact is, though, obviously even your flavor isn't the great one since many of these women aren't convinced by your posts, and because there are again, tons of other Christian options. 

What has been asked of you, over and over, is why religion is important, not why YOURS is. You've essentially stated that the accoutrements (baptism, gathering, etc) are important because of your book, but you haven't justified that statement. We keep asking you to, and you keep bringing in YOUR beliefs as if they are the deciding the factor.And then everyone calls you arrogant.

I think most of us are interested in a good answer, you however are just focused on your particular flavor and not on the question: Why is religion, of ANY kind, necessary? Why can't people come to their beliefs on their own terms?



ah ha...religion seperates,just talking about it creates hostility.That is what Gods intentions were????I don't think so.

Jalestra
by on Oct. 3, 2012 at 1:03 PM
1 mom liked this

Standard, don't answer the question, accuse me of being mean because I have the gall to ask for a real answer. Got it. I've been nice, I haven't once called you a name. I've asked a question several people have asked of you. I even tried to show you WHY people keep calling you arrogant. I wasn't even TRYING to be mean at all. I CAN be mean, but I really wanted an answer to the question.

Now, I'm going to get personal on your beliefs: This is where I have a problem with religion, Christianity in particular. I ask questions and they don't like being questioned, so I'm "mean". They can't defend their system yet still want to argue and I'm "mean". I have had dozens upon dozens of conversations with Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, Druids, Native Americans, even Satanists, who are HAPPY to clarify and answer until I understand what they believe, both generally and individually. I've had THREE conversations like that with those who profess "Christianity" and I live in the Bible belt and was raised going to a Baptist church (not including Pentecostals, which is wierd because I violate just about everything a Pentecostal lives by but they are the friendliest and nicest group of people...I LOVE Pentacostals! I have the funniest story about going to a Pentacostal church the first time and my friend speaking in tongues). One was a priest and 2 were Baptists. Everyone else got mad because I dared to ask questions and insist on real answers. Thank you for maintaining the status quo. I always like confirmation of why I turned away from the church to begin with. To be clear: Christians drove me away from "God", not other religions, not atheism, nothing but their own followers. I bet Jesus is proud.

So be done, but don't tell me what I was trying to do. At no point was I trying to put you down. At no point was I TRYING to be personal about YOUR beliefs. In fact, I asked you to step outside your beliefs and give me an answer on why religion IN GENERAL is important. That list wasn't even giving you shit, only stating that YOU have stated what you believed several times and pointing it out so you could confirm it. Ok, I might say that saying "are we even reading the same thread" COULD be rude, but honestly, I DID feel that "you don't know what I believe" was a bit silly to say after that many times of saying what you believed and therefore I DO know what you believe. BTw, I can't take them out of context since  there is no way to misunderstand "I believe in Christ". I think that's pretty clear and concise, don't you? But did I say anything rude? No, just pointed out that you have stated multiple times what you believed. "Are you ever going to answer the question?" Yeah, ok, probably a little rude, but it's very frustrating dealing with people who fall back on whining everytime they want to get out of answering a question. 

But I tried anyhow,because people have said much worse than I did AND called you names and you were still here and hadn't devolved into a foamy mouthed ass. I thought the conversation MIGHT be worth the effort. But of course, they didn't push for an answer. They figured you out pretty fast and got out. Those ladies were smarter than me, I have to admit.


Quoting little.worthen:

Oh jeez, all these things are taken out of context. When I mentioned the wood she asked me if I owned anything like that, which I said I had the wood, which she then tried telling me was a graven image along with my coins which I told her she was incorrect.
I already sai I do care personally, but that doesn't mean I preach to people. Irl I keep my opinion to myself. I only state it here because this is the Internet and I can.

I have no intention of even talking to ou any further. You aren't trying to get answers to questions, you aren't even trying to be nice about it. No matter what I say to you, all you want to do is argue and I'm not going to argue with you. This isn't an interesting conversation or debate. This is you trying to be the big BAMF and put me down because you don't agree with my opinion.

Find someone else who will feed into your crap. I'm done


Quoting Jalestra:

Are we even reading the same thread? You've only mentioned it several times. Let's see, Page 2, Page 8 (where by the way you stated quite clearly "I do care"), a second time on Page 8, top of Page 10 where you said you own a piece of wood that says "I believe in Christ", a third post on Page 10 where you said "I'm entitled to my beliefs", the top of Page 12...

Are you ever going to answer the question? 


Quoting little.worthen:

I haven't even ever mentioned my religion... You do even know what it is



Quoting Jalestra:

I am not being rude, I'm asking you to justify your statement that religion is necessary, but to do so without making it all about YOUR religion.

"Most people" who are spiritual without religion do NOT necessarily believe in God and Jesus, and I think that's a heck of a statement to make considering there is nothing out there to prove that statement. And people think you're arrogant because they ask a question and you make it about your beliefs or your situation as if that applies to everyone, and still never answer the question: Why is religion necessary? Not why is YOUR religion, but why is religion in general necessary? What does religion bring to the table?

We get that you believe in YOUR religion, but what does religion in general give to you? What does it provide that is necessary? Justifying it with "the bible says so" to a bunch of people who don't always believe in the Bible is not a good answer, it doesn't tell us what religion does, what purpose it does or should serve, why it's necessary and why people can't be spiritually connected without religion.



little.worthen
by Tess on Oct. 3, 2012 at 1:10 PM
You said you didn't want to know my personal beliefs, you said they were off the main topic. If you do I will share them. But don't bash them. Like I wouldn't bash yours.

It's really hard to interpret tone of voice on the Internet, it sounded more like you were attacking me because of what I said. I apologize for accusing you if that's not what you were doing. I should never assume.

Honestly, I want to be done with this post. I've been posting in it for three days, and it's not even mine. If you are really curious, them shoot me a PM and I will be more than happy to continue the conversation. I LOVE talking about religion. But for now, I'm done in this post.


Quoting Jalestra:

Standard, don't answer the question, accuse me of being mean because I have the gall to ask for a real answer. Got it. I've been nice, I haven't once called you a name. I've asked a question several people have asked of you. I even tried to show you WHY people keep calling you arrogant. I wasn't even TRYING to be mean at all. I CAN be mean, but I really wanted an answer to the question.

Now, I'm going to get personal on your beliefs: This is where I have a problem with religion, Christianity in particular. I ask questions and they don't like being questioned, so I'm "mean". They can't defend their system yet still want to argue and I'm "mean". I have had dozens upon dozens of conversations with Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists, Druids, Native Americans, even Satanists, who are HAPPY to clarify and answer until I understand what they believe, both generally and individually. I've had THREE conversations like that with those who profess "Christianity" and I live in the Bible belt and was raised going to a Baptist church (not including Pentecostals, which is wierd because I violate just about everything a Pentecostal lives by but they are the friendliest and nicest group of people...I LOVE Pentacostals! I have the funniest story about going to a Pentacostal church the first time and my friend speaking in tongues). One was a priest and 2 were Baptists. Everyone else got mad because I dared to ask questions and insist on real answers. Thank you for maintaining the status quo. I always like confirmation of why I turned away from the church to begin with. To be clear: Christians drove me away from "God", not other religions, not atheism, nothing but their own followers. I bet Jesus is proud.

So be done, but don't tell me what I was trying to do. At no point was I trying to put you down. At no point was I TRYING to be personal about YOUR beliefs. In fact, I asked you to step outside your beliefs and give me an answer on why religion IN GENERAL is important. That list wasn't even giving you shit, only stating that YOU have stated what you believed several times and pointing it out so you could confirm it. Ok, I might say that saying "are we even reading the same thread" COULD be rude, but honestly, I DID feel that "you don't know what I believe" was a bit silly to say after that many times of saying what you believed and therefore I DO know what you believe. BTw, I can't take them out of context since  there is no way to misunderstand "I believe in Christ". I think that's pretty clear and concise, don't you? But did I say anything rude? No, just pointed out that you have stated multiple times what you believed. "Are you ever going to answer the question?" Yeah, ok, probably a little rude, but it's very frustrating dealing with people who fall back on whining everytime they want to get out of answering a question. 

But I tried anyhow,because people have said much worse than I did AND called you names and you were still here and hadn't devolved into a foamy mouthed ass. I thought the conversation MIGHT be worth the effort. But of course, they didn't push for an answer. They figured you out pretty fast and got out. Those ladies were smarter than me, I have to admit.



Quoting little.worthen:

Oh jeez, all these things are taken out of context. When I mentioned the wood she asked me if I owned anything like that, which I said I had the wood, which she then tried telling me was a graven image along with my coins which I told her she was incorrect.

I already sai I do care personally, but that doesn't mean I preach to people. Irl I keep my opinion to myself. I only state it here because this is the Internet and I can.



I have no intention of even talking to ou any further. You aren't trying to get answers to questions, you aren't even trying to be nice about it. No matter what I say to you, all you want to do is argue and I'm not going to argue with you. This isn't an interesting conversation or debate. This is you trying to be the big BAMF and put me down because you don't agree with my opinion.



Find someone else who will feed into your crap. I'm done




Quoting Jalestra:

Are we even reading the same thread? You've only mentioned it several times. Let's see, Page 2, Page 8 (where by the way you stated quite clearly "I do care"), a second time on Page 8, top of Page 10 where you said you own a piece of wood that says "I believe in Christ", a third post on Page 10 where you said "I'm entitled to my beliefs", the top of Page 12...

Are you ever going to answer the question? 



Quoting little.worthen:

I haven't even ever mentioned my religion... You do even know what it is





Quoting Jalestra:

I am not being rude, I'm asking you to justify your statement that religion is necessary, but to do so without making it all about YOUR religion.

"Most people" who are spiritual without religion do NOT necessarily believe in God and Jesus, and I think that's a heck of a statement to make considering there is nothing out there to prove that statement. And people think you're arrogant because they ask a question and you make it about your beliefs or your situation as if that applies to everyone, and still never answer the question: Why is religion necessary? Not why is YOUR religion, but why is religion in general necessary? What does religion bring to the table?

We get that you believe in YOUR religion, but what does religion in general give to you? What does it provide that is necessary? Justifying it with "the bible says so" to a bunch of people who don't always believe in the Bible is not a good answer, it doesn't tell us what religion does, what purpose it does or should serve, why it's necessary and why people can't be spiritually connected without religion.



Posted on CafeMom Mobile
backtomommy
by New Member on Oct. 3, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Christians follow Pagans,the Bible is the only word...blahblahblah.No one really knows who started what,but one thing we can be sure of ,it all came from man.Even if man says it came from God.Trust what is in you.I think we all have that ability.

just1kasz
by Member on Oct. 3, 2012 at 1:20 PM

Oh! darn!

I have spent hours sitting here reading this thread and making notes of posts I wanted to respond to in a coherent  and somewhat scholarly response. (real definitions, OT quotes) support of different approaches to G-d, etc. and a real attempt to answer the question " Is religion necessary?  and what does it bring to the table?"

Now I wonder if this thread has just died a rather dramatic death.  If so why should I work now on my response which would take another several good hours?

Earlier I posted about Judasim and had not one comment or response, so should I bother?

I'll check back and see later.  But if you want to hear something from me, please say so.  I put my heart into my responses, and like to know that some one (that's all it takes- one-) is interested enough in what iI might have to say to read what I write.

All the best to all posters,

Kasz

 

punky3175
by on Oct. 3, 2012 at 1:29 PM
I did read your response on Judaism and appreciated the contribution to the thread. I would love to hear your response to 'why is religion necessary' so please come back and provide it. :-D

Quoting just1kasz:

Oh! darn!


I have spent hours sitting here reading this thread and making notes of posts I wanted to respond to in a coherent  and somewhat scholarly response. (real definitions, OT quotes) support of different approaches to G-d, etc. and a real attempt to answer the question " Is religion necessary?  and what does it bring to the table?"


Now I wonder if this thread has just died a rather dramatic death.  If so why should I work now on my response which would take another several good hours?


Earlier I posted about Judasim and had not one comment or response, so should I bother?


I'll check back and see later.  But if you want to hear something from me, please say so.  I put my heart into my responses, and like to know that some one (that's all it takes- one-) is interested enough in what iI might have to say to read what I write.


All the best to all posters,


Kasz


 

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LindaClement
by Thatwoman on Oct. 3, 2012 at 5:57 PM

I think you're mistaken:

graven past participle of grave (Verb)

Verb:
  1. Engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.
Quoting little.worthen:

Okay. I figured it out. Coins and almost any ENgraved image is okay. You are confusing GRAVEN image with ENGRAVED image.

A GRAVEN image is: a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

An ENGRAVED image is: to cut or carve a text or design on the surface of a hard object.

So since I don't worship my money, I'm not breaking the commandment...


Quoting LindaClement:

Your truncated version missed (skipped over, discarded, erased) the rest of it:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Quoting little.worthen:

It says no graven image in the likeness of heaven... That doesn't include presidents or birds or presidential monuments or buildings...



Quoting LindaClement:

It's unfortunate that you find that confusing. Yay, you're forgiving. Does that mean that when people hurt you, are you're eager to hear all about their feelings in that moment?

I frankly don't care how perpetrators are feeling, and if they're feeling bad about what they did, my entire answer to them is 'good.'

I have better things to do with the inside of my head than hold grudges --I don't forgive people for them (often, I don't even tell them about it, because it is genuinely none of their business), I forgive for me. I let things go very easily. That's not a god's fault, it's my own personal choice --life learning, wisdom and all that. Considering the incredible frequency of lauded vengeance in the Christian bible, I'm amazed that you attribute your forgiveness to anything related to it.

It doesn't say anything at all about worshipping them in the first commandment that mentions graven images, it declares that you shall not own any.

What it has to do with is taking an a la carte approach to which of the rules you'll claim are 'eternal' and which 'don't count' now.

Quoting little.worthen:

The entire first part of everything you said.... I have no clue what your talking about.. In sorry that sorry doesn't mean anything to you. Thank goodness God is a lot more forgiving than you..





And yeah I have money. I don't worship money.. Unfortunately you have to have money in the world to buy things so... What does that have to do with anything?






Quoting LindaClement:

I have heard of saying sorry, and it makes me angry.

For this reason:

You're a perpetrator, and you've hurt someone else... so the reasonable and civilized response is supposed to be 'here's how I feel.' ('I feel so terrible, I'm SO sorry!')

So?

Seriously?

When someone does something that hurts me, what I do NOT give a shit about is their feelings, not in the moment and not later. Don't care. Don't want to know. Seriously: stop changing the subject.

Fix it. Stop it. Don't ever repeat it. But, really just stop talking about your feelings.

You really don't handle or have any coin currency?

Quoting little.worthen:

Well IMO we are going to sin no matter how hard we try not to because we are sinners. But that doesn't mean sin all you want. Have you ever heard the saying sorry only means sorry if you try not to do it again?







And no I don't own any sculptures or anything like that. i have a peice of wood on the wall that says "i believe in Christ." but thats all. i also dont go anywhere or do anything on Sunday except go to church. When we get home we have dinner which is a frozen crockpot meal, and once in a while we will play scripture memory (it's like regular memory where you match pictures but the pictures are stories from the bible and when you find a match you have to learn bout the story that goes with it)








Quoting LindaClement:

So, you believe this:

??

Do you own any engraved images? You know, like on quarters or sculpture or anything?

You do no work of any kind on Sundays?

(p.s. 'contrite' means 'repentant' so it's hard to imagine how to do one without the other...)

Quoting little.worthen:

No, the law of sacrifice is gone because Jesus's atonement replaced it. It doesn't mean you are automatically saved because Jesus died for you. Jesus made it so it was easier for sinners to repent but they are still responsible for any and all actions they make. You still have to follow Gods laws. Which a lot of them are common sense but not all of them. Keeping the sabbath day holy is a commandment, one of the most important but tons of people go to stores, or whatever and don't even spend 5 minutes thinking about God.. People who don't follow the commandments and don't repent with an honest and contrite (sp?) heart will be held responsible for their actions. The rules like the one I mentioned above may sound minuscule or small to you, but they are not to God, or he wouldn't have commanded it in the first place...









Quoting LindaClement:

Sooo... the OT 'laws' have been set aside because the rules are eternal?

Quoting little.worthen:

Which IMO is exactly what satan wants you to think.











God is strict. God is the same yesterday today and forever.











I care because I love all of Gods children and it literally gives me nightmares when I think of how many people are so far from the truth about God and his gospel and I pray that everyone will find their way. I'm just glad God is gracious enough to give people a kind of second chance on the other side.. I'd still like to see everyone safe and sound in this life though












Quoting SunshneDaydream:

Actually, it's more like we believe in God, but don't believe he or she is so strict and arrogant as to say "believe exactly this or you will be punished".  We believe God is more open-minded than that.  

And regardless, why do you even care what others believe?

Quoting little.worthen:

I think it's a cop out. It's like you want to have a relationship with GOd but you don't want to have to be required to follow any of the "rules" associated with religion, even if God is the one who made the rules.






To me, being spiritual but not religious is something Satan came up with. It sounds good now in this life, but this life is short and will screw with the rest of our eternity. Satan will literally do ANYTHING to steer the children of God away. Even by making it sound like they are doing something holy.. He has no limits








mhaney03
by on Oct. 3, 2012 at 6:00 PM
2 moms liked this

meh, I don't care what some self important column writer thinks.  I will never be religious.  Religion is a set of man made rules based on some belief system.  Spirituality is a relationship with your deity.

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