Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

Schwarzenegger admits to admiring Hitler’s speaking skills in new memoir

Posted by   + Show Post

Arnold Schwarzenegger has long combated rumors alleging that he praised Adolf Hitler. Inhis new autobiography, "Total Recall," the former California governor admits to praising the Nazi leaders speaking style but says he always opposed Hitler's policies.

"I philosophized that only a few men are born to lead, while the rest of humanity is born to follow, and went from that into discussing history's great conquerors and dictators," Schwarzenegger writes in his book. "I admired Hitler's speaking ability, though not what he did with it."

Speculation and criticism over Schwarzenegger's 1977 seminal bodybuilding film, "Pumping Iron." The Hitler exchange was ultimately edited out of the film by director George Butler. While acknowledging the exchange, Schwarzenegger says it was essentially a ruse often employed by the actor, 65, to draw attention to himself.

"Coming up with outrageous things to say was easy because I was always thinking them to keep myself entertained," he writes in Total Recall.

Nonetheless, the Schwarzenegger camp takes issue with the way the quote has been framed by theNew York Daily News, in a story titled "Arnold Schwarzenegger admits he once expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler after publicly denying it for years."

"This is a totally misleading and irresponsible headline," Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Ashley Robinson said in a statement provided to Yahoo News. "The governor wrote about something he said over 30 years ago that was reported countless times during his election for governor, that he had strong oratory skills that were abused for power. The headline is a shameless, reprehensible attempt by a tabloid to get attention and web traffic."

During Schwarzenegger's first run for governor of California in 2003, Butler quoted the actor in a book proposal, citing a transcript from "Pumping Iron," during which he asked Schwarzenegger to list his heroes.

"I admired Hitler, for instance, because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power," Schwarzenegger reportedly said at the time.

However, the Schwarzenegger election campaign pointed out in 2003 that the full transcript of Schwarzenegger's quote shows he clearly distanced himself from any alleged "admiration" of the Nazi dictator.

"Yes, in Germany they used power and authority but it was used in the wrong way," Schwarzenegger said, according to Butler. "But it was misused on the power. First, it started having, I mean, getting Germany out of the great recession and having everybody jobs and so on and then it was just misused. And they said, let's take this country, and so on. That's bad."

Schwarzenegger has been actively involved with pro-Jewish and pro-Israel groups over the years, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/schwarzenegger-admits-expressing-admiration-hitler-memoir-190128101.html

by on Oct. 8, 2012 at 10:08 PM
Replies (111-120):
romalove
by Roma on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:36 PM

 

Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like what you're saying because you have your facts twisted into Crap that doesn't exist.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You can read the other response. And a book.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

If you were educated on what I said you wouldn't be crucifying an entire population saying they pretended they didn't know anything or that they didn't do anything. And the argument wasn't for you but it had the answers to your questions. Nobody is saying what Hitler did was ok. Or Stalin. Or Mosalini. Everybody is aware NOW of what went on. But to say that then they did, and did nothing, is offensive




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ok clearly you didn't read it or you wouldn't have those questions. So here is my response to the other women who claims all Germans were nothing but petty who turned up their nose and a blind eye.

You know about the holocaust. Everyone knows about the holocaust. If you knew anything about what was going through most Germans minds at that time you would not say the things you do about them. It all comes back to the main point, the power of speech and once more the intensity and power that Hitler delivered those words with. If you ever got the chance to talk to a non Jewish German that lived in that time, and they actually decide to talk to you about it, which was half the battle, you would understand why their mentality was nothing like you describe them. Quite frankly its insulting to anyone who was not a Jew hating Nazi. Can you imagine what that must have been like for them? Everywhere is in ruins. The country is in deep poverty. And here is this great man who days he is going to fix everything. You want to believe him. So you listen to what he says. You had the propaganda. The way Jews were depicted. Nazi "doctors" explaining the differance and shy the arians were pure. They taught them as children. The brainwashed people essentially. This stuff didn't just happen overnight. People didn't just wake up hating Jews. Sometimes it wasn't a scary process. The nazis came and said they were moving the Jews. Had them back their bags like a transport. And most didn't say anything because they'd been conditioned to believe it was ok. At that point even many Jews didn't know they were being taken to the camps to have these awful things happen. Say you're a small business owner, the soul income for your family, your blood and sweat, and you employ a Jewish man. The nazis come and tell you if you don't fire him bad things will happen. You ignore them and within days your business is burned to the ground. If only it ended there. For disobeying you are now arrested and carted off to a camp, if you live that long and haven't shot you in the street by now. Let's say your neighbors are Jews and you agree to hide their small children. Same thing. If they are found, everybody dies or ends up at camp. Let that happen a few times in public and see how balsy you get. Then it went a step farther. If you even knew of someone speaking out, didn't even have to be publicly, or you knew someone to be hiding Jews, and you didn't tell the proper authorities, you could be killed. If you were caught trying to run away, you were killed.if you were caught passing information you were killed. By the time it was all said and done most Germans had ended up on rations they could barely make a meal from and whole cities in ruins. You act like it was a bunch of stuck up people who said whatever and kept on with their lives. It wasn't like that for a majority of Germans. NOW you know something.


Media wasn't like what it is now. It's not like somebody could record it and slip it in an email to CNN.The first camp that was infiltrated was the first time anyone not in the heart of it all got to see what was happening.





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow you need to read my other reply. The one that explains more in depth. Or check out the girl who responded, backing up everything I said. As far as everyone knowing what was going on? Did you even go to history class? The Americans invaded a work camp and found emaciated Jews and were horrified because they had NO idea those things were happening. There are numerous accounts of soldiers happening upon the work camps that were shocked by what they saw.





Quoting romalove:





 






Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.







Quoting lga1965:






 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.







Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.








Quoting lga1965:







 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.








 







 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.






Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.






I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.






If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.






One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.






 







 I took history in college.  I have been learning about the Holocaust since I was a child.  I have parents who lost family in the Holocaust, and even a cousin still living (my mother's cousin, btw) who gladly shows his tattoo still there from childhood.  He lost his entire family.  I have a mother who would drag me out of bed at 2 in the morning if there was a documentary on the Holocaust on, to be sure I "got" it.





One more time, I didn't say 'everyone' I said "many or most" and I still believe that.  Facts ARE facts, and there are many witnesses to history, or at least there used to be, they are dying off quickly. 





Why were Jews fleeing?  Why were they terrified of being "called up"?  What do you make of the Jewish laws that had been put in place, the forced giving up of their goods and businesses, forcing them to wear Jewish stars so people would know who they were? 





Do you think millions of people were being massacred and no one noticed?





Or is it that few said or did anything to help?





 The problem with your argument is that you come ready for a fight and therefore read things into what I said that I never said.




It's not about people being stuck up or petty.




Jews have been scapegoated throughout history.  This is just a more recent and horrific example.  Why did Hitler choose to go after Jews?  Because it was easy.  Because it was easy to convince a people who were carting their money for bread and milk around in wheelbarrows because it was so worthless, who had been humbled on the world stage by losing WWI and having severe restrictions and penalties put upon it for peace, who were feeling destitute both in wallet and soul that there was a) a reason for their problems and b) a solution.  There WERE Germans of good conscience who hid Jews or spoke out.  There are Germans who died doing so.  There were many others who knew and did not.  It is disingenous to believe that this is not truth or fact.  It's ugly, which is why you're attacking me and dismissing it.




I read a book about what Stalin did to his people, the book is called Forever Flowing, and if you have a chance, you should read it.  It is not about the Jews and Germany or the Holocaust, it's about what was happening in Russia under Stalin.  I say you should read it because yes, you're correct that media was different and therefore how information was flowing was different, but also because you should see that when someone sets out to do evil, it can be easy to let it happen, right before your eyes.  In one part of this book, Stalin is starving the villages, and word gets out, and reporters come to check it out.  So Stalin has people take the reporters to a nice school, where the children are clean and fed and having chicken for lunch.  They hide the problems as best they can.  This does NOT mean that some people didn't know.  They knew anyway.




Anyway, there are many instances where evil people have destroyed a populace.  It is not particular to Hitler and the Jews. 




Getting all defensive because you hear an attack on everyone when that's not what is happening doesn't help your stance.




And I was educated on what you said before you said it.  It has little bearing on the fact that while there were some people who knew but felt helpless, and others who did not know, and all of Germany was suffering and many were terrified of the regime, the fact remains that Hitler did give notice of his intentions, and set about doing them, and the world mostly stood by and allowed it.




 I asked you before and I will ask you again; is it your position that nobody knew?



 I read all the time.


That's why I know what I'm talking about. 


I can't help it that you don't like it.


 Nonsense.  You're butt hurt because you're German and don't think Germans bear any responsibility.

That's insanity.

Lizard_Lina
by Silver Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:37 PM
The 101st is special ops. Not the whole army or the American people. Much of the documentation you read was classified at the time and most were not privy to it. Also, those men documented it when they found it. There are numerous documents of journals and other personal effects of the 101st that document the fact that what they saw was not even close to what they thought they knew.


Quoting shannonnigans:

Thank you!



What a bunch of crap that they didn't know. And while I wasn't there, it was well-documented by Allied troops who were (see for instance The 101st Airborne) that they knew, and those guys never believed for one second that they didn't. Neither do I.



And the guy was not a great speaker... You tend to have a lot more influence when your oratory is backed up by the SA and the SS.




Quoting romalove:

 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.




Quoting lga1965:



 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.





Quoting lga1965:




 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.





 




 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.



Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.



I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.



If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.



One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.



 



Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Lizard_Lina
by Silver Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:42 PM
Seriously just done with you. I know my history. I know what I was told by the people who were there. The people who starved and lived in fear just like the Jews. Nobody was safe, Jewish or not. You know who is to blame? fucking Hitler, Himler, and every country that left Germany to ruin. They believes in him because he made their country better. They were brainwashed into believing certain things. Even a mass number of Jews had no idea what was going to happen and willingly got on transport trains. All anybody knew for a long time was that the Jews were being moved. And for the billionth time by the time anybody understood what was really going on it was too late to do anything about it. They were already beginning to suffer the same fates. You are so ignorant its painful.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like what you're saying because you have your facts twisted into Crap that doesn't exist.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You can read the other response. And a book.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

If you were educated on what I said you wouldn't be crucifying an entire population saying they pretended they didn't know anything or that they didn't do anything. And the argument wasn't for you but it had the answers to your questions. Nobody is saying what Hitler did was ok. Or Stalin. Or Mosalini. Everybody is aware NOW of what went on. But to say that then they did, and did nothing, is offensive





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ok clearly you didn't read it or you wouldn't have those questions. So here is my response to the other women who claims all Germans were nothing but petty who turned up their nose and a blind eye.

You know about the holocaust. Everyone knows about the holocaust. If you knew anything about what was going through most Germans minds at that time you would not say the things you do about them. It all comes back to the main point, the power of speech and once more the intensity and power that Hitler delivered those words with. If you ever got the chance to talk to a non Jewish German that lived in that time, and they actually decide to talk to you about it, which was half the battle, you would understand why their mentality was nothing like you describe them. Quite frankly its insulting to anyone who was not a Jew hating Nazi. Can you imagine what that must have been like for them? Everywhere is in ruins. The country is in deep poverty. And here is this great man who days he is going to fix everything. You want to believe him. So you listen to what he says. You had the propaganda. The way Jews were depicted. Nazi "doctors" explaining the differance and shy the arians were pure. They taught them as children. The brainwashed people essentially. This stuff didn't just happen overnight. People didn't just wake up hating Jews. Sometimes it wasn't a scary process. The nazis came and said they were moving the Jews. Had them back their bags like a transport. And most didn't say anything because they'd been conditioned to believe it was ok. At that point even many Jews didn't know they were being taken to the camps to have these awful things happen. Say you're a small business owner, the soul income for your family, your blood and sweat, and you employ a Jewish man. The nazis come and tell you if you don't fire him bad things will happen. You ignore them and within days your business is burned to the ground. If only it ended there. For disobeying you are now arrested and carted off to a camp, if you live that long and haven't shot you in the street by now. Let's say your neighbors are Jews and you agree to hide their small children. Same thing. If they are found, everybody dies or ends up at camp. Let that happen a few times in public and see how balsy you get. Then it went a step farther. If you even knew of someone speaking out, didn't even have to be publicly, or you knew someone to be hiding Jews, and you didn't tell the proper authorities, you could be killed. If you were caught trying to run away, you were killed.if you were caught passing information you were killed. By the time it was all said and done most Germans had ended up on rations they could barely make a meal from and whole cities in ruins. You act like it was a bunch of stuck up people who said whatever and kept on with their lives. It wasn't like that for a majority of Germans. NOW you know something.


Media wasn't like what it is now. It's not like somebody could record it and slip it in an email to CNN.The first camp that was infiltrated was the first time anyone not in the heart of it all got to see what was happening.






Quoting romalove:





 






Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow you need to read my other reply. The one that explains more in depth. Or check out the girl who responded, backing up everything I said. As far as everyone knowing what was going on? Did you even go to history class? The Americans invaded a work camp and found emaciated Jews and were horrified because they had NO idea those things were happening. There are numerous accounts of soldiers happening upon the work camps that were shocked by what they saw.






Quoting romalove:






 







Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.








Quoting lga1965:







 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.








Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.









Quoting lga1965:








 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.









 








 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.







Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.







I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.







If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.







One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.







 








 I took history in college.  I have been learning about the Holocaust since I was a child.  I have parents who lost family in the Holocaust, and even a cousin still living (my mother's cousin, btw) who gladly shows his tattoo still there from childhood.  He lost his entire family.  I have a mother who would drag me out of bed at 2 in the morning if there was a documentary on the Holocaust on, to be sure I "got" it.






One more time, I didn't say 'everyone' I said "many or most" and I still believe that.  Facts ARE facts, and there are many witnesses to history, or at least there used to be, they are dying off quickly. 






Why were Jews fleeing?  Why were they terrified of being "called up"?  What do you make of the Jewish laws that had been put in place, the forced giving up of their goods and businesses, forcing them to wear Jewish stars so people would know who they were? 






Do you think millions of people were being massacred and no one noticed?






Or is it that few said or did anything to help?






 The problem with your argument is that you come ready for a fight and therefore read things into what I said that I never said.





It's not about people being stuck up or petty.





Jews have been scapegoated throughout history.  This is just a more recent and horrific example.  Why did Hitler choose to go after Jews?  Because it was easy.  Because it was easy to convince a people who were carting their money for bread and milk around in wheelbarrows because it was so worthless, who had been humbled on the world stage by losing WWI and having severe restrictions and penalties put upon it for peace, who were feeling destitute both in wallet and soul that there was a) a reason for their problems and b) a solution.  There WERE Germans of good conscience who hid Jews or spoke out.  There are Germans who died doing so.  There were many others who knew and did not.  It is disingenous to believe that this is not truth or fact.  It's ugly, which is why you're attacking me and dismissing it.





I read a book about what Stalin did to his people, the book is called Forever Flowing, and if you have a chance, you should read it.  It is not about the Jews and Germany or the Holocaust, it's about what was happening in Russia under Stalin.  I say you should read it because yes, you're correct that media was different and therefore how information was flowing was different, but also because you should see that when someone sets out to do evil, it can be easy to let it happen, right before your eyes.  In one part of this book, Stalin is starving the villages, and word gets out, and reporters come to check it out.  So Stalin has people take the reporters to a nice school, where the children are clean and fed and having chicken for lunch.  They hide the problems as best they can.  This does NOT mean that some people didn't know.  They knew anyway.





Anyway, there are many instances where evil people have destroyed a populace.  It is not particular to Hitler and the Jews. 





Getting all defensive because you hear an attack on everyone when that's not what is happening doesn't help your stance.





And I was educated on what you said before you said it.  It has little bearing on the fact that while there were some people who knew but felt helpless, and others who did not know, and all of Germany was suffering and many were terrified of the regime, the fact remains that Hitler did give notice of his intentions, and set about doing them, and the world mostly stood by and allowed it.





 I asked you before and I will ask you again; is it your position that nobody knew?




 I read all the time.



That's why I know what I'm talking about. 



I can't help it that you don't like it.



 Nonsense.  You're butt hurt because you're German and don't think Germans bear any responsibility.


That's insanity.


Posted on CafeMom Mobile
romalove
by Roma on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:45 PM

 

Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Seriously just done with you. I know my history. I know what I was told by the people who were there. The people who starved and lived in fear just like the Jews. Nobody was safe, Jewish or not. You know who is to blame? fucking Hitler, Himler, and every country that left Germany to ruin. They believes in him because he made their country better. They were brainwashed into believing certain things. Even a mass number of Jews had no idea what was going to happen and willingly got on transport trains. All anybody knew for a long time was that the Jews were being moved. And for the billionth time by the time anybody understood what was really going on it was too late to do anything about it. They were already beginning to suffer the same fates. You are so ignorant its painful.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like what you're saying because you have your facts twisted into Crap that doesn't exist.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You can read the other response. And a book.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

If you were educated on what I said you wouldn't be crucifying an entire population saying they pretended they didn't know anything or that they didn't do anything. And the argument wasn't for you but it had the answers to your questions. Nobody is saying what Hitler did was ok. Or Stalin. Or Mosalini. Everybody is aware NOW of what went on. But to say that then they did, and did nothing, is offensive





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ok clearly you didn't read it or you wouldn't have those questions. So here is my response to the other women who claims all Germans were nothing but petty who turned up their nose and a blind eye.

You know about the holocaust. Everyone knows about the holocaust. If you knew anything about what was going through most Germans minds at that time you would not say the things you do about them. It all comes back to the main point, the power of speech and once more the intensity and power that Hitler delivered those words with. If you ever got the chance to talk to a non Jewish German that lived in that time, and they actually decide to talk to you about it, which was half the battle, you would understand why their mentality was nothing like you describe them. Quite frankly its insulting to anyone who was not a Jew hating Nazi. Can you imagine what that must have been like for them? Everywhere is in ruins. The country is in deep poverty. And here is this great man who days he is going to fix everything. You want to believe him. So you listen to what he says. You had the propaganda. The way Jews were depicted. Nazi "doctors" explaining the differance and shy the arians were pure. They taught them as children. The brainwashed people essentially. This stuff didn't just happen overnight. People didn't just wake up hating Jews. Sometimes it wasn't a scary process. The nazis came and said they were moving the Jews. Had them back their bags like a transport. And most didn't say anything because they'd been conditioned to believe it was ok. At that point even many Jews didn't know they were being taken to the camps to have these awful things happen. Say you're a small business owner, the soul income for your family, your blood and sweat, and you employ a Jewish man. The nazis come and tell you if you don't fire him bad things will happen. You ignore them and within days your business is burned to the ground. If only it ended there. For disobeying you are now arrested and carted off to a camp, if you live that long and haven't shot you in the street by now. Let's say your neighbors are Jews and you agree to hide their small children. Same thing. If they are found, everybody dies or ends up at camp. Let that happen a few times in public and see how balsy you get. Then it went a step farther. If you even knew of someone speaking out, didn't even have to be publicly, or you knew someone to be hiding Jews, and you didn't tell the proper authorities, you could be killed. If you were caught trying to run away, you were killed.if you were caught passing information you were killed. By the time it was all said and done most Germans had ended up on rations they could barely make a meal from and whole cities in ruins. You act like it was a bunch of stuck up people who said whatever and kept on with their lives. It wasn't like that for a majority of Germans. NOW you know something.


Media wasn't like what it is now. It's not like somebody could record it and slip it in an email to CNN.The first camp that was infiltrated was the first time anyone not in the heart of it all got to see what was happening.






Quoting romalove:





 






Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow you need to read my other reply. The one that explains more in depth. Or check out the girl who responded, backing up everything I said. As far as everyone knowing what was going on? Did you even go to history class? The Americans invaded a work camp and found emaciated Jews and were horrified because they had NO idea those things were happening. There are numerous accounts of soldiers happening upon the work camps that were shocked by what they saw.






Quoting romalove:






 







Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.








Quoting lga1965:







 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.








Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.









Quoting lga1965:








 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.









 








 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.







Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.







I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.







If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.







One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.







 








 I took history in college.  I have been learning about the Holocaust since I was a child.  I have parents who lost family in the Holocaust, and even a cousin still living (my mother's cousin, btw) who gladly shows his tattoo still there from childhood.  He lost his entire family.  I have a mother who would drag me out of bed at 2 in the morning if there was a documentary on the Holocaust on, to be sure I "got" it.






One more time, I didn't say 'everyone' I said "many or most" and I still believe that.  Facts ARE facts, and there are many witnesses to history, or at least there used to be, they are dying off quickly. 






Why were Jews fleeing?  Why were they terrified of being "called up"?  What do you make of the Jewish laws that had been put in place, the forced giving up of their goods and businesses, forcing them to wear Jewish stars so people would know who they were? 






Do you think millions of people were being massacred and no one noticed?






Or is it that few said or did anything to help?






 The problem with your argument is that you come ready for a fight and therefore read things into what I said that I never said.





It's not about people being stuck up or petty.





Jews have been scapegoated throughout history.  This is just a more recent and horrific example.  Why did Hitler choose to go after Jews?  Because it was easy.  Because it was easy to convince a people who were carting their money for bread and milk around in wheelbarrows because it was so worthless, who had been humbled on the world stage by losing WWI and having severe restrictions and penalties put upon it for peace, who were feeling destitute both in wallet and soul that there was a) a reason for their problems and b) a solution.  There WERE Germans of good conscience who hid Jews or spoke out.  There are Germans who died doing so.  There were many others who knew and did not.  It is disingenous to believe that this is not truth or fact.  It's ugly, which is why you're attacking me and dismissing it.





I read a book about what Stalin did to his people, the book is called Forever Flowing, and if you have a chance, you should read it.  It is not about the Jews and Germany or the Holocaust, it's about what was happening in Russia under Stalin.  I say you should read it because yes, you're correct that media was different and therefore how information was flowing was different, but also because you should see that when someone sets out to do evil, it can be easy to let it happen, right before your eyes.  In one part of this book, Stalin is starving the villages, and word gets out, and reporters come to check it out.  So Stalin has people take the reporters to a nice school, where the children are clean and fed and having chicken for lunch.  They hide the problems as best they can.  This does NOT mean that some people didn't know.  They knew anyway.





Anyway, there are many instances where evil people have destroyed a populace.  It is not particular to Hitler and the Jews. 





Getting all defensive because you hear an attack on everyone when that's not what is happening doesn't help your stance.





And I was educated on what you said before you said it.  It has little bearing on the fact that while there were some people who knew but felt helpless, and others who did not know, and all of Germany was suffering and many were terrified of the regime, the fact remains that Hitler did give notice of his intentions, and set about doing them, and the world mostly stood by and allowed it.





 I asked you before and I will ask you again; is it your position that nobody knew?




 I read all the time.



That's why I know what I'm talking about. 



I can't help it that you don't like it.



 Nonsense.  You're butt hurt because you're German and don't think Germans bear any responsibility.


That's insanity.


 LOL

Do you promise you are done with me?

Are you sure it's everyone's fault BUT the Germans?

Who put Hitler in power in the first place, anyway?

Did you just give the same reasoning for Hitler that I think you did, that it's the other countries who left Germany devastated after WWI that allowed them to be fooled into letting one of the most evil and twisted men ever to lead them?

Good grief.

shannonnigans
by Gold Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:48 PM
Take some classes on the Weimar Republic and its fall, and Hitlers concurrent rise to power, taught by a renowned professor on the subject, who was there. Then get back to me.




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

He did not come to power by the backing of the ss. Check a timeline and return to this thread.




Quoting shannonnigans:

Thank you!





What a bunch of crap that they didn't know. And while I wasn't there, it was well-documented by Allied troops who were (see for instance The 101st Airborne) that they knew, and those guys never believed for one second that they didn't. Neither do I.





And the guy was not a great speaker... You tend to have a lot more influence when your oratory is backed up by the SA and the SS.






Quoting romalove:

 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.





Quoting lga1965:




 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.






Quoting lga1965:





 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.






 





 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.




Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.




I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.




If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.




One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.




 




Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Lizard_Lina
by Silver Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:55 PM
1 mom liked this
You can't tell the truth when you don't know what the truth is.

I don't think, I know, because german and Italian people who lived in fear every day, told me. My family, their friends. All with the same stories. You spew ignorance and it saddens me that you think its true.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That whole first stanza doesn't make sense at all.
Second of course the German people knew they were THERE. but they didn't just do nothing, what dis you expect them to do? By the time it reached the herendous level it did there was nothing they COULD do which goes back to you not reading anything. I already explained this to you. How it happened, why it happened, etc. If you're not going to read it and instead choose to keep replying with the same dumb ass questions, crucifying a people that could not help themselves, then I am done responding to you. What people like you tend to forget is that Hitler did the things he did to EVERYONE, not just the Jews.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's not what I said. Your claim was that everybody knew and did nothing. I'm telling you that that isn't true. And the ones who did know, were basically powerless by the time it started happening. It's not like it was on CNN and everybody stood around and went "that sucks" and went back to their lives.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's your opinion. Just because that's what you believe doesn't make it fact.





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting JuneH:





 





no rude is not caring who is offended and ruducing your argument to telling me when I should and should not be offended.





Quoting romalove:










 I am not generally rude and am struggling not to be with you right now, but telling someone to shut up because you don't like what they have to say is definitely not the way to win hearts, minds or debates.





 You're offended because I think many Germans and people in other countries including in America knew the Jews were being exterminated?





I can't help it if that offends you.  It is the truth.





 Is it your claim that there were no Germans or people in other countries with knowledge of Jewish extermination?




 Just because you classify my position as "everybody" knew, when I said "many" which is completely different, doesn't make what you said my position.  What I said is what my position is.



I have crucified no one.  I have told the truth.  The truth is, many people knew, not just in Germany but around the world, and they did nothing.  In America, we didn't even take existing quota of Jews desperate to leave, let alone make the quotas higher. 



It is insane to believe that the German people, who had not only Hitler's book to go by but also his speeches where he spoke of his hatred of Jews and his belief that they were the root of the problems the German people were having, did not know that Hitler intended to destroy the Jews. 



 



 You don't have to respond to me anymore.  You're rude and crass here, I have been nothing but respectful in this debate.


My first stanza made perfect sense.  You keep substituting the word "everybody" where I said "many".


If you think the German people didn't know what Hitler was going to do, and didn't know what was going on until it was too late, then that's what you think. 


If you think they are, all of them, blameless, then that's what you think.


I have not crucified anyone.  I have told the truth.  I'm sorry you don't understand that.


Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Lizard_Lina
by Silver Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:56 PM
Your point was the Hitler won his position out of fear, that was not the case. He didn't start sending the ss out to do his dirty work until long after he had assumed his position.


Quoting shannonnigans:

Take some classes on the Weimar Republic and its fall, and Hitlers concurrent rise to power, taught by a renowned professor on the subject, who was there. Then get back to me.








Quoting Lizard_Lina:

He did not come to power by the backing of the ss. Check a timeline and return to this thread.






Quoting shannonnigans:

Thank you!







What a bunch of crap that they didn't know. And while I wasn't there, it was well-documented by Allied troops who were (see for instance The 101st Airborne) that they knew, and those guys never believed for one second that they didn't. Neither do I.







And the guy was not a great speaker... You tend to have a lot more influence when your oratory is backed up by the SA and the SS.








Quoting romalove:

 





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.






Quoting lga1965:





 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.






Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.







Quoting lga1965:






 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.







 






 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.





Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.





I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.





If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.





One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.





 





Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Lizard_Lina
by Silver Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:56 PM
1 mom liked this
Because that is what fucking happened you stupid stupid woman.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Seriously just done with you. I know my history. I know what I was told by the people who were there. The people who starved and lived in fear just like the Jews. Nobody was safe, Jewish or not. You know who is to blame? fucking Hitler, Himler, and every country that left Germany to ruin. They believes in him because he made their country better. They were brainwashed into believing certain things. Even a mass number of Jews had no idea what was going to happen and willingly got on transport trains. All anybody knew for a long time was that the Jews were being moved. And for the billionth time by the time anybody understood what was really going on it was too late to do anything about it. They were already beginning to suffer the same fates. You are so ignorant its painful.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't like what you're saying because you have your facts twisted into Crap that doesn't exist.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You can read the other response. And a book.





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting Lizard_Lina:

If you were educated on what I said you wouldn't be crucifying an entire population saying they pretended they didn't know anything or that they didn't do anything. And the argument wasn't for you but it had the answers to your questions. Nobody is saying what Hitler did was ok. Or Stalin. Or Mosalini. Everybody is aware NOW of what went on. But to say that then they did, and did nothing, is offensive






Quoting romalove:





 






Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ok clearly you didn't read it or you wouldn't have those questions. So here is my response to the other women who claims all Germans were nothing but petty who turned up their nose and a blind eye.

You know about the holocaust. Everyone knows about the holocaust. If you knew anything about what was going through most Germans minds at that time you would not say the things you do about them. It all comes back to the main point, the power of speech and once more the intensity and power that Hitler delivered those words with. If you ever got the chance to talk to a non Jewish German that lived in that time, and they actually decide to talk to you about it, which was half the battle, you would understand why their mentality was nothing like you describe them. Quite frankly its insulting to anyone who was not a Jew hating Nazi. Can you imagine what that must have been like for them? Everywhere is in ruins. The country is in deep poverty. And here is this great man who days he is going to fix everything. You want to believe him. So you listen to what he says. You had the propaganda. The way Jews were depicted. Nazi "doctors" explaining the differance and shy the arians were pure. They taught them as children. The brainwashed people essentially. This stuff didn't just happen overnight. People didn't just wake up hating Jews. Sometimes it wasn't a scary process. The nazis came and said they were moving the Jews. Had them back their bags like a transport. And most didn't say anything because they'd been conditioned to believe it was ok. At that point even many Jews didn't know they were being taken to the camps to have these awful things happen. Say you're a small business owner, the soul income for your family, your blood and sweat, and you employ a Jewish man. The nazis come and tell you if you don't fire him bad things will happen. You ignore them and within days your business is burned to the ground. If only it ended there. For disobeying you are now arrested and carted off to a camp, if you live that long and haven't shot you in the street by now. Let's say your neighbors are Jews and you agree to hide their small children. Same thing. If they are found, everybody dies or ends up at camp. Let that happen a few times in public and see how balsy you get. Then it went a step farther. If you even knew of someone speaking out, didn't even have to be publicly, or you knew someone to be hiding Jews, and you didn't tell the proper authorities, you could be killed. If you were caught trying to run away, you were killed.if you were caught passing information you were killed. By the time it was all said and done most Germans had ended up on rations they could barely make a meal from and whole cities in ruins. You act like it was a bunch of stuck up people who said whatever and kept on with their lives. It wasn't like that for a majority of Germans. NOW you know something.


Media wasn't like what it is now. It's not like somebody could record it and slip it in an email to CNN.The first camp that was infiltrated was the first time anyone not in the heart of it all got to see what was happening.







Quoting romalove:






 







Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow you need to read my other reply. The one that explains more in depth. Or check out the girl who responded, backing up everything I said. As far as everyone knowing what was going on? Did you even go to history class? The Americans invaded a work camp and found emaciated Jews and were horrified because they had NO idea those things were happening. There are numerous accounts of soldiers happening upon the work camps that were shocked by what they saw.







Quoting romalove:







 








Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Ummm I AM German. So congratulations on your history lesson. You still know NOTHING about what the German people were like. They were scared into submission, if you disagreed with him or spoke out against him, awful things happened to you, your family, the people who employed you etc. The entire country was forced into poverty and starvation to show their strength. The people they should be able to count on, their police, their government, their politicians, were all playing a part. Propaganda was huge and many genuinely did not know what was really going on. They new it was bad, but not like that. And again, the ones who did could not speak out. Germans controlled Germany, Austria, Bosnia, not to mention the allied Italians. What were they supposed to do? He wooed them into power with his words of power and redemption and rebuilding, by the time it started to go bad, it was too late. There were resistances, people who laid down their lives to hide those sought out, spys, coups, what more did you honestly expect them to do with zero money, zero resources, and the only backing they could get hadn't made it to them yet? Again you know NOTHING.









Quoting lga1965:








 wow, I did. I lived in Germany for a total of 7 years. I also went to the musuem at Dachau concentration camp, saw the ovens, saw the bunks,  and heard a priest lecture and I saw the photos and learned a hell of a lot. Have YOU?Doctors helped use the Jews in medical experiments to earn extra money. ( Craniotomies with no anesthetic) ,seeing how long they could live naed in snow in the winter, among other things. Ordinary Doctors from town.People in homes near Dachau saw the smoke and knew, But they ignored it.









Quoting Lizard_Lina:

Wow.... Read a book.










Quoting lga1965:









 The Germans were like amoral,unprincipled puppets. WHen he spoke about how they would prosper and how their country would be great and rich again, they listened because MONEY was all they cared about. And when people saw the concentration camps being built and saw the smoke from the crematoriums ( the ovens where Jews were burned) , they turned away and let it happen because of their alegiance to the puppet master who would bring them a better economy. Sick stuff.










 









 I would say you don't know what ALL the German people were like, and are blinded by your allegiance to Germans because you are one.








Truth is, not only did many if not most Germans know what was going on, people around the world knew too, including in America.  Hitler was not shy about his plans, and he deliberately targeted Jews (and Gypsies and a few other populations, but he decimated European Jewry) as the problem to be solved for Germans to be elevated to greatness after the horrific problems they had after WWI.  It was easy to be fooled by someone who told them he had their answer, and they were fooled indeed.








I remember in one of my history classes, the professor said, if you wanted to destroy a population, what would be the first thing you would do?  The answer was transportation.  One of the first things that had to be done was get a good system of trains in order, to be able to move them from where they were to their "ultimate destinations".  The camps were built, the crematories were built, the trains were built, and the Jews disappeared.  In fact, in Austria today it is very difficult to find a Jew, and they had a nice population pre-WWII.  Germany's Jews have not recovered either.








If we want to say Hitler was a great orator, we can.  We can say he also had a nifty mustache, if we're looking for something nice to say about monsters.








One of the reasons many Germans don't talk about WWII is because they don't like that part of their history and they want to keep it in the past.  That doesn't mean that many of their parents and grandparents didn't look the other way at the madness going on around them.








 









 I took history in college.  I have been learning about the Holocaust since I was a child.  I have parents who lost family in the Holocaust, and even a cousin still living (my mother's cousin, btw) who gladly shows his tattoo still there from childhood.  He lost his entire family.  I have a mother who would drag me out of bed at 2 in the morning if there was a documentary on the Holocaust on, to be sure I "got" it.







One more time, I didn't say 'everyone' I said "many or most" and I still believe that.  Facts ARE facts, and there are many witnesses to history, or at least there used to be, they are dying off quickly. 







Why were Jews fleeing?  Why were they terrified of being "called up"?  What do you make of the Jewish laws that had been put in place, the forced giving up of their goods and businesses, forcing them to wear Jewish stars so people would know who they were? 







Do you think millions of people were being massacred and no one noticed?







Or is it that few said or did anything to help?







 The problem with your argument is that you come ready for a fight and therefore read things into what I said that I never said.






It's not about people being stuck up or petty.






Jews have been scapegoated throughout history.  This is just a more recent and horrific example.  Why did Hitler choose to go after Jews?  Because it was easy.  Because it was easy to convince a people who were carting their money for bread and milk around in wheelbarrows because it was so worthless, who had been humbled on the world stage by losing WWI and having severe restrictions and penalties put upon it for peace, who were feeling destitute both in wallet and soul that there was a) a reason for their problems and b) a solution.  There WERE Germans of good conscience who hid Jews or spoke out.  There are Germans who died doing so.  There were many others who knew and did not.  It is disingenous to believe that this is not truth or fact.  It's ugly, which is why you're attacking me and dismissing it.






I read a book about what Stalin did to his people, the book is called Forever Flowing, and if you have a chance, you should read it.  It is not about the Jews and Germany or the Holocaust, it's about what was happening in Russia under Stalin.  I say you should read it because yes, you're correct that media was different and therefore how information was flowing was different, but also because you should see that when someone sets out to do evil, it can be easy to let it happen, right before your eyes.  In one part of this book, Stalin is starving the villages, and word gets out, and reporters come to check it out.  So Stalin has people take the reporters to a nice school, where the children are clean and fed and having chicken for lunch.  They hide the problems as best they can.  This does NOT mean that some people didn't know.  They knew anyway.






Anyway, there are many instances where evil people have destroyed a populace.  It is not particular to Hitler and the Jews. 






Getting all defensive because you hear an attack on everyone when that's not what is happening doesn't help your stance.






And I was educated on what you said before you said it.  It has little bearing on the fact that while there were some people who knew but felt helpless, and others who did not know, and all of Germany was suffering and many were terrified of the regime, the fact remains that Hitler did give notice of his intentions, and set about doing them, and the world mostly stood by and allowed it.






 I asked you before and I will ask you again; is it your position that nobody knew?





 I read all the time.




That's why I know what I'm talking about. 




I can't help it that you don't like it.




 Nonsense.  You're butt hurt because you're German and don't think Germans bear any responsibility.



That's insanity.



 LOL


Do you promise you are done with me?


Are you sure it's everyone's fault BUT the Germans?


Who put Hitler in power in the first place, anyway?


Did you just give the same reasoning for Hitler that I think you did, that it's the other countries who left Germany devastated after WWI that allowed them to be fooled into letting one of the most evil and twisted men ever to lead them?


Good grief.


Posted on CafeMom Mobile
shannonnigans
by Gold Member on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:58 PM
You're sounding a lot like those tried at Nuremberg. So why not just come out and say it?

"ve vere just fullowing orders"


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That whole first stanza doesn't make sense at all.

Second of course the German people knew they were THERE. but they didn't just do nothing, what dis you expect them to do? By the time it reached the herendous level it did there was nothing they COULD do which goes back to you not reading anything. I already explained this to you. How it happened, why it happened, etc. If you're not going to read it and instead choose to keep replying with the same dumb ass questions, crucifying a people that could not help themselves, then I am done responding to you. What people like you tend to forget is that Hitler did the things he did to EVERYONE, not just the Jews.




Quoting romalove:

 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's not what I said. Your claim was that everybody knew and did nothing. I'm telling you that that isn't true. And the ones who did know, were basically powerless by the time it started happening. It's not like it was on CNN and everybody stood around and went "that sucks" and went back to their lives.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's your opinion. Just because that's what you believe doesn't make it fact.





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting JuneH:





 





no rude is not caring who is offended and ruducing your argument to telling me when I should and should not be offended.





Quoting romalove:










 I am not generally rude and am struggling not to be with you right now, but telling someone to shut up because you don't like what they have to say is definitely not the way to win hearts, minds or debates.





 You're offended because I think many Germans and people in other countries including in America knew the Jews were being exterminated?





I can't help it if that offends you.  It is the truth.





 Is it your claim that there were no Germans or people in other countries with knowledge of Jewish extermination?




 Just because you classify my position as "everybody" knew, when I said "many" which is completely different, doesn't make what you said my position.  What I said is what my position is.



I have crucified no one.  I have told the truth.  The truth is, many people knew, not just in Germany but around the world, and they did nothing.  In America, we didn't even take existing quota of Jews desperate to leave, let alone make the quotas higher. 



It is insane to believe that the German people, who had not only Hitler's book to go by but also his speeches where he spoke of his hatred of Jews and his belief that they were the root of the problems the German people were having, did not know that Hitler intended to destroy the Jews. 



 



Posted on CafeMom Mobile
romalove
by Roma on Oct. 9, 2012 at 4:58 PM

 

Quoting Lizard_Lina:

You can't tell the truth when you don't know what the truth is.

I don't think, I know, because german and Italian people who lived in fear every day, told me. My family, their friends. All with the same stories. You spew ignorance and it saddens me that you think its true.


Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That whole first stanza doesn't make sense at all.
Second of course the German people knew they were THERE. but they didn't just do nothing, what dis you expect them to do? By the time it reached the herendous level it did there was nothing they COULD do which goes back to you not reading anything. I already explained this to you. How it happened, why it happened, etc. If you're not going to read it and instead choose to keep replying with the same dumb ass questions, crucifying a people that could not help themselves, then I am done responding to you. What people like you tend to forget is that Hitler did the things he did to EVERYONE, not just the Jews.



Quoting romalove:


 



Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's not what I said. Your claim was that everybody knew and did nothing. I'm telling you that that isn't true. And the ones who did know, were basically powerless by the time it started happening. It's not like it was on CNN and everybody stood around and went "that sucks" and went back to their lives.




Quoting romalove:



 




Quoting Lizard_Lina:

That's your opinion. Just because that's what you believe doesn't make it fact.





Quoting romalove:




 





Quoting JuneH:





 





no rude is not caring who is offended and ruducing your argument to telling me when I should and should not be offended.





Quoting romalove:










 I am not generally rude and am struggling not to be with you right now, but telling someone to shut up because you don't like what they have to say is definitely not the way to win hearts, minds or debates.





 You're offended because I think many Germans and people in other countries including in America knew the Jews were being exterminated?





I can't help it if that offends you.  It is the truth.





 Is it your claim that there were no Germans or people in other countries with knowledge of Jewish extermination?




 Just because you classify my position as "everybody" knew, when I said "many" which is completely different, doesn't make what you said my position.  What I said is what my position is.



I have crucified no one.  I have told the truth.  The truth is, many people knew, not just in Germany but around the world, and they did nothing.  In America, we didn't even take existing quota of Jews desperate to leave, let alone make the quotas higher. 



It is insane to believe that the German people, who had not only Hitler's book to go by but also his speeches where he spoke of his hatred of Jews and his belief that they were the root of the problems the German people were having, did not know that Hitler intended to destroy the Jews. 



 



 You don't have to respond to me anymore.  You're rude and crass here, I have been nothing but respectful in this debate.


My first stanza made perfect sense.  You keep substituting the word "everybody" where I said "many".


If you think the German people didn't know what Hitler was going to do, and didn't know what was going on until it was too late, then that's what you think. 


If you think they are, all of them, blameless, then that's what you think.


I have not crucified anyone.  I have told the truth.  I'm sorry you don't understand that.


 What makes you think that you spoke to people who speak for all?

What makes you think I haven't spoken to people, or watched documentaries, or read books, listened to professors, and gleaned my own information?

What makes you think that your information trumps mine?

Sometimes you have to go with what makes logical sense.  If it makes logical sense to you that the German people could elect someone who told them that Jews were the root evil of their problem, that being Aryan was superior and special, and that electing him would help them regain their glory, and then watch those Jews be marked, targeted, isolated, and "deported" and they not any of them knew that something horrible was happening, then that's what you'll go with.

I am not blind.

Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)



Featured