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 Although I do think the VP debate was very close to a draw, much of that is Biden's demeanor, which IMO really damaged his credibility.  The GOP wasted no time highlighting it:

Now of course Biden was doing his "that's malarky stuff" laugh as a way to laugh off Ryan, but I found it grating and unbecoming after the first time.  The thought that comes to me is, "This is a seasoned, mature politician with much more years under his belt, this is the Vice President.  Is this really how he presents himself after all that?"  While Ryan was articulate, he lacked gravitas and a bold manner, yet that is something he can grow into as a VP. 

If Biden had reflected the respect due to his office, he would have won, IMO.  Yet his manner, something we have little to no reason to expect him to change, was found wanting.

The most pressing social issue today is the economy

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by on Oct. 12, 2012 at 7:57 AM
Replies (101-110):
cammibear
by Gold Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 2:16 PM
1 mom liked this
You keep harping on his plan being mathematically impossible.

First, at least they have a plan. We are trillions of more dollars in debt because our current administration has no budget to work from, so they just print money and do whatever they want with absolutely NO CONCERN about the consequences of spending without the means. Their only answer is to cripple those who are actually doing okay in this terrible economy, by raising taxes on innocent people to compensate for their lack of restraint and irresponsible overspending.

And I think you are wrong. The focus of the Romney/Ryan plan is economic growth. Right now the base is broadening...with people who are not working, not paying taxes, and in most cases, taking from the government, insteading of contributing to growth in revenue. It's putting added burden on those who do contribute. But you call that fair. I call it insane.

The goal should be to get people working, broadening the base of people contributing, and get people independent and self-sustaining, not dependent on government.

Lowering corporate tax rates and personal income taxes stimulate economic growth. This is exactly what Romney is proposing, which is why, if he can get Democrats to work with him, we have a better chance under his policies.

And Biden said plenty of things that were wrong...but he meant everything he said. ;)






Quoting Sisteract:

I go by what they said.

Ryan did not answer the questions asked.

His stated economic plan was found to be mathematically impossible by factchecker. HOW CAN PEOPLE DISCOUNT THIS?

Parse the act from the words/message.

Of the 4 who have debated so far, Biden is the only one who has presented facts, incorporated actual applicable experience and knowledge. Was he rude while calling out the miscues, fabrications and contributions? Yes. Were his statements and assertions wrong? No.


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Momniscient
by Ruby Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 2:22 PM

lol

Meadowchik
by Silver Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:00 PM

 Some analysts, but the ones that did also stated they were going on assumptions NOT stated in the plan.  And that's the tax plan.  Do you know that Obama's tax plan does not add up?  He is still running deficits.  Do you know that the majority of a panel of top economists also analised both Romney and Obama fiscal policy and said they prefer Romney's for economic growth?  It seems to me that you are ignoring the deep failure of Obama's fiscal policy and pointing your finger at Romney's, when actually Romney's is the better of the two.

I'm guessing you have not read expert analysis of Obama's policies and the untenable problems it perpetuates.  It smells bad.

Quoting viv212:

Oh what a plan. Except analysts have already concluded that the numbers don't add up. The moderator even asked about the numbers adding up. Of course Ryan said the would. The numbers made sense to Bush and the wealthy but it hurt all us normal regular folks.

They would have to make up for all jobs lost plus more. Now with cutting taxes and acting like they are going to help job growth, saying they don't want war but yet want to keep troops up road and keep funding that tactic... So in actuality the taxes will go to support war and not Planned Parenthood.

Now I'm no genius or politician but I know when I smell bullshit (excuse my French).


Quoting Meadowchik:

 Cutting taxes allows people to spend money on other things that are of greater economic benefit to them.  That can create demand in some areas, spur economic growth and in turn spur job creation onward.


As far as military spending, we must have an adequately-funded military to be safe.  As world populations grow, we can reasonably say that so do security risks.  National security is the first job of the federal government. Remember the market losses after 9/11?  The attack was targeted to not only kill Americans, but to attack the economy and the government.  National security and economic health are intertwined. 


Whar ARE you talking about regarding SSI and PA?  IF you were listening to Ryan, he said nothing about cutting PA or SSI.  Sounds like you've been listening to scare tactics. 


And of course plans have already been given, and they are meaningful:  Romney wants to open up US energy production to spur on manufacturing jobs, to improve federal re-training programs, to improve education choice for children, to help small businesses grow, and to protect American intellectual property.  Those can all help with jobs, and Romney has time and time again shown how his plan contrasts with Obama's to become more effective, smarter, and better for American jobs.


Quoting viv212:

Exactly. How is cutting taxes, yet giving more to military, cutting PBS, supporting letting GM go bankrupt, over turning Roe vs Wade, and cutting people's income on SSI and PA helping with job growth? The very little plan that they can come up with is showing how they are cutting jobs. Yet all the R's talk about is how their plan will help job growth. AGAIN, how???????????? Instead of giving us a plan on what you will cut, give us a plan on how you will make up for these lost jobs, plus add more???!



Quoting Sisteract:


You'd think someone with such wonderful experience could devise a solid, mathematically viable economic plan, but so far he has been unable to create such a plan.


Quoting LucyMom08:

How?




Quoting Meadowchik:


I'll go with the guy who has experience cutting loopholes, balancing budgets, helping businesses succeed, and getting work done by working intensely with both parties.




The situation is bad, no matter what.  Obama is making it worse, Romney will do better.




Quoting Sisteract:




Honey one is bad and the other is worse.




I thought the GOP would cultivate a better candidate with a real plan... guess the complaining for 3 years distracted from that goal.




They did not.




HOW could you endorse that approach-"he did it too"?




What we know of MR's plan- is eerily similar to Ws- how did that work for America?




Quoting Meadowchik:




And Obama's plan is mathematically impossible at current rates of growth.  How can you discount this???




Quoting Sisteract:




I go by what they said.




Ryan did not answer the questions asked.




His stated economic plan was found to be mathematically impossible by factchecker. HOW CAN PEOPLE DISCOUNT THIS?




Parse the act from the words/message.




Of the 4 who have debated so far, Biden is the only one who has presented facts, incorporated actual applicable experience and knowledge. Was he rude while calling out the miscues, fabrications and contributions? Yes. Were his statements and assertions wrong? No.




 








 




 

 

The most pressing social issue today is the economy

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Sisteract
by Whoopie on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:13 PM

#s do matter, and the GOP is trying to convince the populace that they are better and have the true solutions. Clearly, not so.

It's a sham.

They are both same-

America loses no matter what-

thecoffeefairy
by Bronze Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:16 PM
Exactly


Quoting brookiecookie87:

The same way it is extremely telling that when Mitt Romney got the last word in every time. When he lied nearly the whole debate. Flipped Flopped on the parts he wasn't lying on. And Conservative/Republicans declare him the winner for being Aggressive.

Biden shows a little of the same aggression and suddenly it is a bad behavior and he shouldn't have done it.

Extremely telling.


Quoting candlegal:

You know it is kind of telling that so many on the left used to talk about how they hated the smirk on President Bush's face, but seem to find it okay on Obama and Biden.  Bush barely had a smirk and Obama almost always has one.


Quoting Carpy:

I think his smirking and smiling at inappropiate times was unbecoming and appears to have done more harm than good.  Of course the Obama devotees loved it, but the undecideds apparently, mostly did not.




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Healthystart30
by Silver Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:18 PM
2 moms liked this
Quoting Meadowchik:




The military is getting enough money, the problem is mismanagement of the money they get! For ex. Billions of dollars on uniforms that don't work, so now they have to spend even more to fix that situation. Meanwhile they are thinking about having one uniform for all branches which means even more money! Billions and billions of dollars spent on a problem that never was a problem. Navy doesn't fix the problems on the ships when they are minor, let's say they need a part for 500, nope not happening, some months down the road the 500 dollar problem is now 1000's of dollars and is given to private contractors!

The only reason why Republicans want to put more money into the military is so they can line their pockets with weapon and war money!

And he isn't smirking at the topics but at the stupidity coming out of Ryans mouth, there is a difference.
viv212
by Gold Member on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:38 PM
Ryan said in the debate that job growth is expanding by 1.3%. Only 1.3%. Saying Obama's plan is failing is not matching what Ryan said.

Quoting Meadowchik:

 Some analysts, but the ones that did also stated they were going on assumptions NOT stated in the plan.  And that's the tax plan.  Do you know that Obama's tax plan does not add up?  He is still running deficits.  Do you know that the majority of a panel of top economists also analised both Romney and Obama fiscal policy and said they prefer Romney's for economic growth?  It seems to me that you are ignoring the deep failure of Obama's fiscal policy and pointing your finger at Romney's, when actually Romney's is the better of the two.


I'm guessing you have not read expert analysis of Obama's policies and the untenable problems it perpetuates.  It smells bad.


Quoting viv212:

Oh what a plan. Except analysts have already concluded that the numbers don't add up. The moderator even asked about the numbers adding up. Of course Ryan said the would. The numbers made sense to Bush and the wealthy but it hurt all us normal regular folks.

They would have to make up for all jobs lost plus more. Now with cutting taxes and acting like they are going to help job growth, saying they don't want war but yet want to keep troops up road and keep funding that tactic... So in actuality the taxes will go to support war and not Planned Parenthood.

Now I'm no genius or politician but I know when I smell bullshit (excuse my French).



Quoting Meadowchik:


 Cutting taxes allows people to spend money on other things that are of greater economic benefit to them.  That can create demand in some areas, spur economic growth and in turn spur job creation onward.



As far as military spending, we must have an adequately-funded military to be safe.  As world populations grow, we can reasonably say that so do security risks.  National security is the first job of the federal government. Remember the market losses after 9/11?  The attack was targeted to not only kill Americans, but to attack the economy and the government.  National security and economic health are intertwined. 



Whar ARE you talking about regarding SSI and PA?  IF you were listening to Ryan, he said nothing about cutting PA or SSI.  Sounds like you've been listening to scare tactics. 



And of course plans have already been given, and they are meaningful:  Romney wants to open up US energy production to spur on manufacturing jobs, to improve federal re-training programs, to improve education choice for children, to help small businesses grow, and to protect American intellectual property.  Those can all help with jobs, and Romney has time and time again shown how his plan contrasts with Obama's to become more effective, smarter, and better for American jobs.



Quoting viv212:

Exactly. How is cutting taxes, yet giving more to military, cutting PBS, supporting letting GM go bankrupt, over turning Roe vs Wade, and cutting people's income on SSI and PA helping with job growth? The very little plan that they can come up with is showing how they are cutting jobs. Yet all the R's talk about is how their plan will help job growth. AGAIN, how???????????? Instead of giving us a plan on what you will cut, give us a plan on how you will make up for these lost jobs, plus add more???!





Quoting Sisteract:



You'd think someone with such wonderful experience could devise a solid, mathematically viable economic plan, but so far he has been unable to create such a plan.



Quoting LucyMom08:

How?





Quoting Meadowchik:



I'll go with the guy who has experience cutting loopholes, balancing budgets, helping businesses succeed, and getting work done by working intensely with both parties.





The situation is bad, no matter what.  Obama is making it worse, Romney will do better.





Quoting Sisteract:





Honey one is bad and the other is worse.





I thought the GOP would cultivate a better candidate with a real plan... guess the complaining for 3 years distracted from that goal.





They did not.





HOW could you endorse that approach-"he did it too"?





What we know of MR's plan- is eerily similar to Ws- how did that work for America?





Quoting Meadowchik:





And Obama's plan is mathematically impossible at current rates of growth.  How can you discount this???





Quoting Sisteract:





I go by what they said.





Ryan did not answer the questions asked.





His stated economic plan was found to be mathematically impossible by factchecker. HOW CAN PEOPLE DISCOUNT THIS?





Parse the act from the words/message.





Of the 4 who have debated so far, Biden is the only one who has presented facts, incorporated actual applicable experience and knowledge. Was he rude while calling out the miscues, fabrications and contributions? Yes. Were his statements and assertions wrong? No.





 










 






 


 

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Friday
by HRH of MJ on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:43 PM
1 mom liked this


Quoting viv212:

Almost every time Biden laughed, Ryan would get distracted. Ryan would do an excellent job though by trying to maintain. Trying.

How many times would Ryan get pushed into a corner and was left with nothing to say? That is what made Biden win. He called out all the hypocrisy and Ryan couldn't defend himself.

As a matter of fact, the moderator called him out twice on his hypocrisy.

And so what is the R plan to create more jobs? It's all about cutting but all they can say is they will bring more jobs. How??? "We will work with congress...." What a bunch of malarkey!


Quoting Meadowchik:

 Actually as a tactic it was rather ineffective.  Ryan still gave detailed, compelling arguments.  Without the laughing, Biden would have looked more presidential, IMO.  Otherwise he does not look like anyone who should be representing our country.


Quoting viv212:

One more thing since people are saying Biden was childish. It was only a debate tactic. He knew that by smirking it was getting under Ryan's skin and it worked. And it showed. It reminded me of a boxing match where there's an older retired fighter vs the new young boxer. Experience triumphs over probably all the time. Biden knew exactly what he was doing.

And you could tell when Ryan sounded like a high school girl saying, "we know you're under duress..." Making a personal type call like that is more childish then the laughing. Half of America was laughing with Biden.

 

I'm still trying to figure out where Ryan gave any detailed, compelling arguments.


Church of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves)

Sisteract
by Whoopie on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:45 PM


It seems the devil is in the details.

Quoting Friday:


Quoting viv212:

Almost every time Biden laughed, Ryan would get distracted. Ryan would do an excellent job though by trying to maintain. Trying.

How many times would Ryan get pushed into a corner and was left with nothing to say? That is what made Biden win. He called out all the hypocrisy and Ryan couldn't defend himself.

As a matter of fact, the moderator called him out twice on his hypocrisy.

And so what is the R plan to create more jobs? It's all about cutting but all they can say is they will bring more jobs. How??? "We will work with congress...." What a bunch of malarkey!


Quoting Meadowchik:

 Actually as a tactic it was rather ineffective.  Ryan still gave detailed, compelling arguments.  Without the laughing, Biden would have looked more presidential, IMO.  Otherwise he does not look like anyone who should be representing our country.


Quoting viv212:

One more thing since people are saying Biden was childish. It was only a debate tactic. He knew that by smirking it was getting under Ryan's skin and it worked. And it showed. It reminded me of a boxing match where there's an older retired fighter vs the new young boxer. Experience triumphs over probably all the time. Biden knew exactly what he was doing.

And you could tell when Ryan sounded like a high school girl saying, "we know you're under duress..." Making a personal type call like that is more childish then the laughing. Half of America was laughing with Biden.

 

I'm still trying to figure out where Ryan gave any detailed, compelling arguments.



Separation of church and state is for the protection of BOTH church and state.
Leading with hate and intolerance only leads to MORE hate and intolerance.
Friday
by HRH of MJ on Oct. 13, 2012 at 3:52 PM
2 moms liked this


Quoting Ms.KitKat:

 Throughout the debate, I found myslef talking to my tv screen- not something I often do mind you so it just goes to show how frustrated I was. I felt, while watching Ryan, like I do sometimes when speaking to my 9 yo who can't give me a straight answer about how he did on his test. I heard from Ryan all of the things that Obama did wrong. What I do NOT hear however was what Ryan would have done instead. Even Radatz questioned Ryan sveral times over and still Ryan could only say what was wrong- NEVER could he say what he or Romney would do instead. It was frustarting to listen to and laughable. I do not think I would ahve the same restarint as Biden by simply laughing. I seriously wanted to shake Ryan by the shoulders and shout: spill it man- just say what you want to DO already!!!!!!!! Speak up- America is listening. But, nothin'.

I felt the same way. It was very frustrating to see Ryan dance around the questions w/o offering up any real answers.


Church of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be her holy hooves)

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