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15 States File Petition to Secede

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Found this posted a few places and this seems to be the original article...of course it's just people filing the petitions and not the state governments themselves.

Thoughts? Its fun to mock when one state threatens, but if/when this actually became real, should these states be allowed to secede peacefully? 

http://www.examiner.com/article/15-states-including-texas-have-filed-a-petition-to-secede-from-the-united-states-1

As of Saturday November 10, 2012, 15 States have petitioned the Obama Administration for withdrawal from the United States of America in order to create its own government.

States following this action include: Louisiana, Texas, Montana, North Dakota, Indiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, North Carolina, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, New Jersey, Colorado, Oregon and New York. These States have requested that the Obama Administration grant a peaceful withdrawal from the United States.

These citizen generated petitions were filed just days after the 2012 presidential election.

Louisiana was the first State to file a petition a day after the election by a Michael E. from Slidell, Louisiana. Texas was the next State to follow by a Micah H. from Arlington, Texas.

The government allows one month from the day the petition is submitted to obtain 25,000 signatures in order for the Obama administration to consider the request.

The Texas petition reads as follows:

The US continues to suffer economic difficulties stemming from the federal government’s neglect to reform domestic and foreign spending. The citizens of the US suffer from blatant abuses of their rights such as the NDAA, the TSA, etc. Given that the state of Texas maintains a balanced budget and is the 15th largest economy in the world, it is practically feasible for Texas to withdraw from the union, and to do so would protect it’s citizens’ standard of living and re-secure their rights and liberties in accordance with the original ideas and beliefs of our founding fathers which are no longer being reflected by the federal government.

As of 12:46 am, Sunday, signatures obtained by Louisiana, 7,358; Texas, 3,771; Florida, 636; Georgia, 475; Alabama, 834; North Carolina, 792; Kentucky, 467; Mississippi, 475; Indiana, 449; North Dakota, 162; Montana, 440; Colorado, 324; Oregon, 328; New Jersey, 301 and New York, 169. Many more States are expected to follow.

A petition is not searchable at whitehouse.gov until 150 signatures have been obtained. It is the originator's responsibility to obtain these signatures.

The Texas petition can be reviewed and/or signed by clicking here.

 Sexy If its unladylike, fattening or fun, I'm in!
  

by on Nov. 12, 2012 at 8:54 AM
Replies (201-207):
lga1965
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 8:50 PM
1 mom liked this
If the "theory " of sustainable states is accurate, my bluev state can sustain itself and help those nearby.
but this is so much garbage .....its not real.
Some of you are itching to load your weapons,hoping for a civil war. It's some kind of neurotic need .....lets all pick sides and fight. Yeah right .
Sickos.
Posted on CafeMom Mobile
Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:17 PM
1 mom liked this

What you accuse me of has no bearing on reality. Your knowledge of history is bigoted (or you need a refund from your teachers). You also have severe comprehension problems ~ but I'll try again.

California is crushed in debt and depends on the exports/sales of that produce to pay off at least some of the bills. Since it's assumed (not by me necessarily) that the US isn't going to let any state but TX secede peacefully (it has no right to stop TX), then it is presumed that war will ensue should any state dare attempt secession.

War will muck up the already pathetic infrastructure (roads, electric, water, sewer, gas, oil, groceries, medications, and yes, the internet). Life with no rule of law outside of pockets of martial law obviously is not something you understand, or can even start to wrap your head around. I can note the deficiency, but I can't fix it.

Where Cali gets it's water from will be the least of anyone's concern (except each individual trying to find some that might be safe to drink). Aside from other countries I've seen first hand, I live with a combat vet. I'm a mother to a combat vet. I'm the daughter of a combat vet. I said nothing about 'defeating' any military ~ only that I know how to hide what I have from them. I know that because the military people in my family taught me.

You are one of those soft and spoiled people who doesn't appear to have a clue. Again, I can only mention that, I can't fix it for you.

If we have another civil war, more than half the population of this country is likely to die ... and not from anything combat related. Hunger, disease, and violence between citizens will kill off far more than any military entities. That is the reality. I truly feel sorry for anyone living in a city or large town because those people will live through hell before dying. Those who think they can just wander out and hide in the woods ... well, good luck with that because the woods are owned by people who are most likely armed and not in the mood for company. There won't even be rats or pigeons left to catch and eat after a few weeks without trucks bringing in food. People with diabetes, heart problems, cancer, aids/hiv will also die sooner because no hospitals of pharmacies stock meds any more. Anyone with a garden will likely see it stripped bare in a day. Most people will either eat the family dog or it will be stolen and eaten by someone else. Within a two weeks or so, the ... hmmm ... sanitation issues will start causing disease and more death. Anyone injured will likely not be able to get medical care. That is what the first month of a civil war would be like ~ and that's the pretty part. The roaming gangs and looters, the individual nutcases, the drug addicted needing a fix, and the general criminal element will also be out there roaming and sharing their own unique issues.

You go right ahead and fixate on California's water supply or it's ability to sell it's produce (which would also be looted by starving people) lol.

When I say that another civil war is likely imo, I also know exactly what that truly means. Also, since you may not know ~ EVERY military entity would be authorized (and has been since the revolutionary war in the US) to go door to door to confiscate all useful goods. They don't (and won't) care if you starve because they take all your food. They can shoot you if you try to stop them. This includes ON any base installation as well for you military spouses btw ~ the only thing the military cares about is keeping itself operational and supporting whatever government they are reporting to. They get first dibs on food, medical supplies and medication, raw goods for manufacturing, etc.

The US dollar tanking would pretty much cause all of the same problems and hardships, with the added bonus of not being able to buy something that is available because the money would not be worth anything ~ and might BE the initial cause of a civil war.

All of this would be fairly short term as far as duration ~ 2 -6 months. How long it would take to pick up the pieces is not worh guessing at ... and again, presupposing that some other country/countries aren't jumping in to muck things up worse.

Now ~ here you can jump on me for broad brushing some things ~ I would fully expect the Latino/Mexican people to be a huge problem in Cali, NM, AR, and TX. I'd fully expect quite a few Mormons to be acting as leaders in a lot of areas (not to mention eating well). I'd expect most hospitals would be closed or ineffective after looting, especially in major cities.

I don't have a clue who Art Bell is, nor do I really care. I'm far from hostile and even wild animals trust me. I'll admit to not liking people much, but that's because a lot of people are ... like you lol. That being said, I'm far from isolated. I am what my user name implies ~ a woman who lives on a farm. I've been to a lot of countries, lived in many cities, helped my husband serve this country for many years, and have retired early (since I disagree on how my tax money gets spent) to a farm that is bought and paid for. I care for a lot of animals, have a garden and an orchard, process all of our food except grain, and am responsible for my own water and waste management .... and provide my own electricity sans grid. What I am is capable and determined. I'd miss the internet, but I do have other means of communicating.

What 'you' would do or be able to do under the conditions I listed above is your problem. I know what I will do and unlike most, won't be one of those killing the neighbor over the last loaf of moldy bread. I'm ok with that.

Quoting shannonnigans:

Learn to read. I'm accusing you of scapegoating ethnicities, which is why I said I'm sure the Jews are next in your diatribe. You're not all that adept on picking up sarcasm, are you? And sure enough, there was your broad brush yet again, stereotyping an entire segment of society. Good stuff, Herr Goebbels.

Your research is awful. 40% of California's water comes from groundwater alone, and that's before you even get to the Sierra snowpack. Go look at the site I suggested, or about a dozen others.

Your states rights argument is the common refuge of Confederate apologists, when the reality is that the right in question was slavery. But you know that because your mindless ingeminations reek of anti- minority hostility, so thinly veiled are they.

The fact that you think the country will simply allow a state to secede without shutting them down economically is mind-boggling, in and of itself, as if these states could ever make it on their own, but to suggest that they keep all military hardware and installations as spoils of secession, so to speak, is absurd. That's known as the "what's the matter, don't you trust us" approach and no, we don't. Also, please turn in your passport immediately and your travel here will be restricted.

There's so much bullshit in your post it's hard to keep track of what I missed. That California won't be able to sell its produce. LOL, ok, sure. In a quick minute. You'll have the bigger problem trying to get it.

Your ability to defend yourself from the military is just so retarded I can't even find the words, and your reference library? We have this thing called computers. That was the beauty of the whole thing - everyone could have access to such information.

Face it. You're an Art Bell freak job who somehow fancies herself as a smart woman but in reality has the intellect of seaweed. Enjoy your hostility and isolationism.


Quoting Farmlady09:

States generate their own income ~ and any that did secede would likely join together with a new central government and continue to pool their resources. The difference would be that those states would already be of a mind to have a much smaller central government and the monies collected would actually go towards infrastructure.


You had better believe that military resources would remain within those states ~ or blown up. But, those missile silos and such would stay. Not even Mexicans could be paid enough to dig them out.


The civil war was absolutely about states' rights ~ learn some actual history or keep posting crap that educated people note as crap.


The 'usual suspects' are suspects because they ARE all contributors to our fubar legal system, our lack of rights, our high taxes with no return, our broke medical business, a good part of the school failings, and a slightly higher than half voting for more free stuff. Jewish people are excellent business people ... can't lay this one on their doorstep (but nice try).


The water that Cali provides for itself is substantial ~ and comes at a great cost to every ecosystem impacted by the dams, the diversions, and the canals funneling it from one place to another. Regardless of anything else, the supply is finite, and fixing the mess already created is something that is not affordable at the moment. That provides most of the water for irrigation and some small towns ~ but the drinking water is another matter. Simplistic rebuttal to a seriously complex issue for Cali (but another nice try).


Overwhelmingly? 51/49 is not overwhelming by any stretch of the imagination.


Bottom line is that if the red/blue states alone just split, the blue states are full of cities that are unsustainable all on their own (which is where that electoral mass vote comes from). Bottom line is that even with the food production in Cali, if it isn't selling to the red states or overseas (who don't want the gmo crud ... and the same applies to the red states and their grain production) they can't sell enough to necessitate the expanded growing (which means maybe the delta could be fixed). Bottom line is that less than half the population in blue states are paying taxes and supporting the massive government.


The very bottom line is that half the people in this country do not want the same things progressives do ~ and that population is not all 'old white men' (bigot much lol).


So ~ I'll pass on getting over it. Not only do I find nothing remarkable or special (unless you put quotation marks around the special) about progressives, I consider them as only detrimental to the future of the US.


Technically I have seceded. I quit work and ONLY work for myself and/or those I choose to. Unlike most panty waist progressives, I am capable and willing to fight for the America I want ... and without a gov't. handout to save up to do it. I'm currently living at a higher than 85% sustainable lifestyle sans the grid, public water/sewer, and other systems. I have a reference library that I own outright that rivals many public libraries, raw materials and tools that don't require any 'grid' or public input. I also have the means to secure it and keep it (including from military confiscation and the average punk thug). I have already put my money and life where my mouth is.


Your attitude will get you squat when the dollar tanks ~ and there is no avoiding it now. Regardless of how much money you have/don't have, it also will get you squat when the dollar tanks or any breakdown of the grid. All the chutzpah in the world won't budge implacable scarcity, so good luck with that. I've visited enough 3rd world dumps to recognize the early signs ... and I'm quite comfortable living with or without electricity, public water (or even a flush toilet), etc. I have no idea how old you are, but as far as I can tell, my grandchildren have a better understanding of what is happening than you do. Learning is optional at this point, just like survival.


Quoting shannonnigans:

Is it?

While they would physically hang onto the roads, airports, etc., they would not receive any of the federal funding necessary to maintain those institutions, let alone the infrastructure to run them. Sorry, no air traffic control. Now you can pay for all that. You'd be broke in five minutes.

Nevermind the US saying sure, you keep these bases and arsenal, we trust you, all you did was secede. No hard feelings, right?

Next is this fiction that the Civil War was about states rights. Yeah... The right to own slaves. A despicable cover up of a despicable motive.

She then blames the usual suspects, lawyers, illegal immigrants (translation: Mexicans) and welfare recipients... The only thing missing from her rant is the Jews are the root of the problem. I'm sure it's there in the background though.

Her credibility is eroded in one instant when she says that the majority of California's water comes from red states; the majority of California water comes from Sierra snowpack and groundwater, and that information could have been obtained in a single click to various agency websites such as the Association of California Water Agencies.

As for the more people feeling like her, not even close. We had this big poll on November 6th, we call it an election. The country rejected this point of view overwhelmingly. Get over it already. Or try to secede already - don't keep on with these empty "threats" saying "I'm gonna, I'm gonna! You sound pathetic.



Quoting kimmyt0810:


I am in love with what you said! This is SO true! Thank you for posting this!



Quoting Farmlady09:


If a state secedes, they will most certainly be hanging on to their roads, their airports, their ports, and their military units ~ except for those military members that choose to change their home state and move accordingly. What's left of the US (which btw would need a new name) could try and use military action to destroy or force payment for it ... but it would be bordering on the ridiculous to dig up and move something like the shipyards in Charleston (as an example).



For many states, this isn't about Obama being reelected either ~ so the 'crybaby' comments are a moot point. There are quite a few states (26 or so) that already have filed paperwork to distance themselves and their citizens from some of what the federal gov't. is doing, and the first one was New Hampshire.



What this comes down to is either the federal government starts acting within the limits of the Constitution again, or more people and more states are going to firm up their stance on secession. We had a revolution which formed this country based on a lack of representation and rights. We've had a civil war that started because the federal gov't. was trampling states' rights.



Now we have a combination of both ~ taxation without representation (if you're dumb enough to believe that your vote matters to your elected reps and senators, that's your problem ~ but it doesn't change the fact that they vote according to the entities that have bought and paid for them ... agribusiness, Monsanto, pharma companies, etc.) and could care less about 'you'. They all blow our tax monies according to their agenda, and 'we the people' are nothing more than a bankroll for their expenses and pet projects. Most of them have stated openly that they could care less about what the constitution says, or our laws.



Most of them are lawyers and what they can't circumvent through shady loopholes they create regulatory agencies to handle ~ and let regulations replace the rule of law, skip the checks and balances the constitution put in place, and which are enforced without due process OR the protections guaranteed by the constitution.



Aside from all of that, there is no denying that the population is now as fervently divided over the direction the country should go as it was over slavery. The biggest difference today is that the federal government is insolvent, involved in multiple battlefronts elsewhere, and has a staggering load of welfare dependents (which is growing daily).



Personally, I'm at a point where I don't see any 'coming together' at this point. Neither side is willing to give an inch ~ even though both sides keep demanding compromise. It won't happen. Those of you thinking that only states that secede would need to completely redo their government and start over need to get it through your heads that what's left of the US would need to do the same. Borders, transportation, water supplies/usage, electricity, roads and highways, emergency services, and mundane things such as banking, grocery store supplies, pharmacies, etc. would ALL need to be reworked ... and for all states involved.



I did giggle at that one liberal rant/funny about how much food comes from California. That part is true ~ but most of the water that is used to irrigate those farms comes from states that are wanting to secede (just one of the glaring inaccuracies in that little piece).



Something else to consider from that particular rant is that the bulk of the welfare recipients (I'm not referring to SS or medicare ~ just food stamps, hud, etc.) are also living in those states. Many of the blue states also are home to a great many illegals, and those numbers would go up since the states on the list  that want out or just have sovereignty bills voted in/pending are also the same states that have been cracking down on illegals.



My take is that we're headed for a second civil war. Economically and politically I don't see any other outcome at this point. Do I care ~ yes. But, if the liberals in this country continue shoving freefall socialist and anti-constitutional crap as their main selling point, I accept that and would also support it. I don't want to live in a socialist dung heap. I don't want Uncle Sammy picking my pocket, telling me how to live, what I can/can't do, etc. I want the constitution followed and adhered to by elected officials starting at the local level and going all the way to the top.



I don't care what agribusiness and monsanto have on their agenda ~ I want to be able to plant and eat healthy fruits and veggies that aren't gmo crap. I want pharma companies and our medical business reformed and promoting something besides insurance that will only bankrupt everyone. I want business and manufacturing brought back to this country and allowed to grow and provide jobs for our people instead of foreigners. I want illegals treated like the criminals they are, and the rest of our own criminals prosecuted and punished instead of pampered. I want our schools to actually get back to the top rung of the ladder and the federal gov't. out of them. I've had enough touchy feel good pc crap that just keeps making things worse to last a lifetime.



I'm not willing to compromise on any of those things. I don't care who anyone sleeps with or who they bow down to, but I am fed up with Uncle Sammy. Someone needs to pop his hand and tell him NOT YOURS. If our potus can't be bothered with serving, we need a new one. If half the population wants a king instead of a servant, we need at least two different countries ~ because otherwise this bickering and hate and anger is just going to keep getting worse.


 



 



stacymomof2
by Ruby Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:50 PM
1 mom liked this

For God's sake woman.  

I know you think you have some special insight and your whole "off the grid" militaristic, misanthropic,  Branch Davidian stuff is admirable in it's self sufficiency.  But your view of how the normals (haha) live is completely ridiculous.  Some people have found that people working together can accomplish more than a hermit living in the woods.  

I guess I'm just one of those unimpressive "progressives."  However in a disaster I'm not fighting over moldy bread.  I'm directing a team to plant some wheat, and while we are waiting for it to grow we will get the bakery built, and a road to move the stuff.

Just because you have such a low opinion of people doesn't mean it's a fact.


Quoting Farmlady09:

What you accuse me of has no bearing on reality. Your knowledge of history is bigoted (or you need a refund from your teachers). You also have severe comprehension problems ~ but I'll try again.

California is crushed in debt and depends on the exports/sales of that produce to pay off at least some of the bills. Since it's assumed (not by me necessarily) that the US isn't going to let any state but TX secede peacefully (it has no right to stop TX), then it is presumed that war will ensue should any state dare attempt secession.

War will muck up the already pathetic infrastructure (roads, electric, water, sewer, gas, oil, groceries, medications, and yes, the internet). Life with no rule of law outside of pockets of martial law obviously is not something you understand, or can even start to wrap your head around. I can note the deficiency, but I can't fix it.

Where Cali gets it's water from will be the least of anyone's concern (except each individual trying to find some that might be safe to drink). Aside from other countries I've seen first hand, I live with a combat vet. I'm a mother to a combat vet. I'm the daughter of a combat vet. I said nothing about 'defeating' any military ~ only that I know how to hide what I have from them. I know that because the military people in my family taught me.

You are one of those soft and spoiled people who doesn't appear to have a clue. Again, I can only mention that, I can't fix it for you.

If we have another civil war, more than half the population of this country is likely to die ... and not from anything combat related. Hunger, disease, and violence between citizens will kill off far more than any military entities. That is the reality. I truly feel sorry for anyone living in a city or large town because those people will live through hell before dying. Those who think they can just wander out and hide in the woods ... well, good luck with that because the woods are owned by people who are most likely armed and not in the mood for company. There won't even be rats or pigeons left to catch and eat after a few weeks without trucks bringing in food. People with diabetes, heart problems, cancer, aids/hiv will also die sooner because no hospitals of pharmacies stock meds any more. Anyone with a garden will likely see it stripped bare in a day. Most people will either eat the family dog or it will be stolen and eaten by someone else. Within a two weeks or so, the ... hmmm ... sanitation issues will start causing disease and more death. Anyone injured will likely not be able to get medical care. That is what the first month of a civil war would be like ~ and that's the pretty part. The roaming gangs and looters, the individual nutcases, the drug addicted needing a fix, and the general criminal element will also be out there roaming and sharing their own unique issues.

You go right ahead and fixate on California's water supply or it's ability to sell it's produce (which would also be looted by starving people) lol.

When I say that another civil war is likely imo, I also know exactly what that truly means. Also, since you may not know ~ EVERY military entity would be authorized (and has been since the revolutionary war in the US) to go door to door to confiscate all useful goods. They don't (and won't) care if you starve because they take all your food. They can shoot you if you try to stop them. This includes ON any base installation as well for you military spouses btw ~ the only thing the military cares about is keeping itself operational and supporting whatever government they are reporting to. They get first dibs on food, medical supplies and medication, raw goods for manufacturing, etc.

The US dollar tanking would pretty much cause all of the same problems and hardships, with the added bonus of not being able to buy something that is available because the money would not be worth anything ~ and might BE the initial cause of a civil war.

All of this would be fairly short term as far as duration ~ 2 -6 months. How long it would take to pick up the pieces is not worh guessing at ... and again, presupposing that some other country/countries aren't jumping in to muck things up worse.

Now ~ here you can jump on me for broad brushing some things ~ I would fully expect the Latino/Mexican people to be a huge problem in Cali, NM, AR, and TX. I'd fully expect quite a few Mormons to be acting as leaders in a lot of areas (not to mention eating well). I'd expect most hospitals would be closed or ineffective after looting, especially in major cities.

I don't have a clue who Art Bell is, nor do I really care. I'm far from hostile and even wild animals trust me. I'll admit to not liking people much, but that's because a lot of people are ... like you lol. That being said, I'm far from isolated. I am what my user name implies ~ a woman who lives on a farm. I've been to a lot of countries, lived in many cities, helped my husband serve this country for many years, and have retired early (since I disagree on how my tax money gets spent) to a farm that is bought and paid for. I care for a lot of animals, have a garden and an orchard, process all of our food except grain, and am responsible for my own water and waste management .... and provide my own electricity sans grid. What I am is capable and determined. I'd miss the internet, but I do have other means of communicating.

What 'you' would do or be able to do under the conditions I listed above is your problem. I know what I will do and unlike most, won't be one of those killing the neighbor over the last loaf of moldy bread. I'm ok with that.


muslimahpj
by Ruby Member on Nov. 16, 2012 at 12:06 AM

Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Nov. 16, 2012 at 12:46 AM
1 mom liked this

That's all well and good ~ but a few questions ... what are you planning to eat while that wheat grows for 4 months (and where would you get the wheat to plant),  why not just figure out a way to power up a bakery that's already built ... or did you have a hand crank grain mill handy and know how to to harvest yeast from the air. And, why on earth do you think people would go do what 'you' told them to?

I don't have some special insight beyond knowing how people have reacted for centuries. There are fairly well documented studies about how people would react ~ and a bizarre one here on CM that thinks I have some hermit hole in the side of a mountain lol (which is wrong btw). There will always be those who shut down, those who wander aimlessly waiting for instructions (and that group btw keeps growing), a group equal to the wanderers that tries to help initially at least, even if it's wrong, a small group that knows what to do and can motivate others to help themselves, and a group that will try to take advantage of all the rest for their own benefit and/or at the expense of others.

There are also groups all over this country that regularly and consistently plan and train for disasters ~ and I'm not referring to emergency personnel. They don't look at web sites or read books and claim they know what to do. Something as simple as starting a fire is a lot harder when you're soaked and cold and shivering. A lot of people find that out the hard way ~ ask any hiker who got lost. There is also emotional baggage that comes with any disaster ... losing a home, a loved one, a pet. Very few people are clinical enough to just ignore that and press on.

You are free to mock me all you like, but the things I do took years to learn. Some of them I am still barely competent at ~ and far from proficiency. Many of the things that would be needed are not available anywhere but an antique shop or buried at the back of flea markets. All of our 'skills' are now specialized ~ the average person can't build an engine from parts, or put together even a rough shelter let alone build a home if theirs is demolished. When that happens people wait for fema to bring trailers ... and water ... and food ... and check their cell phones every other minute to see if they have service back.

All you have to do is read through the questions here at CM ~ how many people are out of groceries when things are normal, how many can't afford heating/cooling, how many don't know whether an injury or illness is serious. The list is endless, but you insist that everyone will just pitch in and starve congenially together waiting on that wheat to grow and ~ supposing you do find seed and manage to grow a field of wheat ~ what happens when an armed party comes and takes it because they didn't have seed/didn't know how to plant it/are starving and don't care about you because they will die if they don't take it.

Take a good look at what's happening in Greece ~ ten years ago no one there would have believed what's going on now could happen. People in NY were dumpster diving for food because of a cat 1 freak storm and trapped in homes up and down the east coast. Short term, knew it was coming, and two weeks out there are still people without power and/or homes. There are buildings where they will be scrubbing down the stench a month from now thanks to dumping bodily wastes in hallways. There was only mild looting, but there were also people pretending to be rescue personnel so they could rob homes. People went without meds, medical attention, etc. That was just one smallish part of the country from a large storm.

I live in a hurricane zone. We get tornadoes regularly and occasional earthquakes and fires. We have nuke plants close by. Tell me again I'm nuts for learning what to do/what not to do, and making sure I can take care of my family, my animals, and myself. I'm part of one of those groups that works together, works with the community and especially the elderly. I've taken the time to learn skills most can't even find books to read about in any longer. What I do is responsible, not nuts.

My opinion of people isn't low ~ but I'm well aware of how many lack even a survival instinct. Again, all you have to do is read through answers here and see how many would prefer not to survive different situations. Seriously, how many who live on microwave meals and takeout are going to be able to feed themselves and/or their children without electricity in a world where the stores might not even have real food on the shelves? That's ok. You keep on telling yourself I'm nuts *G* 


 

Quoting stacymomof2:

For God's sake woman.  

I know you think you have some special insight and your whole "off the grid" militaristic, misanthropic,  Branch Davidian stuff is admirable in it's self sufficiency.  But your view of how the normals (haha) live is completely ridiculous.  Some people have found that people working together can accomplish more than a hermit living in the woods.  

I guess I'm just one of those unimpressive "progressives."  However in a disaster I'm not fighting over moldy bread.  I'm directing a team to plant some wheat, and while we are waiting for it to grow we will get the bakery built, and a road to move the stuff.

Just because you have such a low opinion of people doesn't mean it's a fact.

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

What you accuse me of has no bearing on reality. Your knowledge of history is bigoted (or you need a refund from your teachers). You also have severe comprehension problems ~ but I'll try again.

California is crushed in debt and depends on the exports/sales of that produce to pay off at least some of the bills. Since it's assumed (not by me necessarily) that the US isn't going to let any state but TX secede peacefully (it has no right to stop TX), then it is presumed that war will ensue should any state dare attempt secession.

War will muck up the already pathetic infrastructure (roads, electric, water, sewer, gas, oil, groceries, medications, and yes, the internet). Life with no rule of law outside of pockets of martial law obviously is not something you understand, or can even start to wrap your head around. I can note the deficiency, but I can't fix it.

Where Cali gets it's water from will be the least of anyone's concern (except each individual trying to find some that might be safe to drink). Aside from other countries I've seen first hand, I live with a combat vet. I'm a mother to a combat vet. I'm the daughter of a combat vet. I said nothing about 'defeating' any military ~ only that I know how to hide what I have from them. I know that because the military people in my family taught me.

You are one of those soft and spoiled people who doesn't appear to have a clue. Again, I can only mention that, I can't fix it for you.

If we have another civil war, more than half the population of this country is likely to die ... and not from anything combat related. Hunger, disease, and violence between citizens will kill off far more than any military entities. That is the reality. I truly feel sorry for anyone living in a city or large town because those people will live through hell before dying. Those who think they can just wander out and hide in the woods ... well, good luck with that because the woods are owned by people who are most likely armed and not in the mood for company. There won't even be rats or pigeons left to catch and eat after a few weeks without trucks bringing in food. People with diabetes, heart problems, cancer, aids/hiv will also die sooner because no hospitals of pharmacies stock meds any more. Anyone with a garden will likely see it stripped bare in a day. Most people will either eat the family dog or it will be stolen and eaten by someone else. Within a two weeks or so, the ... hmmm ... sanitation issues will start causing disease and more death. Anyone injured will likely not be able to get medical care. That is what the first month of a civil war would be like ~ and that's the pretty part. The roaming gangs and looters, the individual nutcases, the drug addicted needing a fix, and the general criminal element will also be out there roaming and sharing their own unique issues.

You go right ahead and fixate on California's water supply or it's ability to sell it's produce (which would also be looted by starving people) lol.

When I say that another civil war is likely imo, I also know exactly what that truly means. Also, since you may not know ~ EVERY military entity would be authorized (and has been since the revolutionary war in the US) to go door to door to confiscate all useful goods. They don't (and won't) care if you starve because they take all your food. They can shoot you if you try to stop them. This includes ON any base installation as well for you military spouses btw ~ the only thing the military cares about is keeping itself operational and supporting whatever government they are reporting to. They get first dibs on food, medical supplies and medication, raw goods for manufacturing, etc.

The US dollar tanking would pretty much cause all of the same problems and hardships, with the added bonus of not being able to buy something that is available because the money would not be worth anything ~ and might BE the initial cause of a civil war.

All of this would be fairly short term as far as duration ~ 2 -6 months. How long it would take to pick up the pieces is not worh guessing at ... and again, presupposing that some other country/countries aren't jumping in to muck things up worse.

Now ~ here you can jump on me for broad brushing some things ~ I would fully expect the Latino/Mexican people to be a huge problem in Cali, NM, AR, and TX. I'd fully expect quite a few Mormons to be acting as leaders in a lot of areas (not to mention eating well). I'd expect most hospitals would be closed or ineffective after looting, especially in major cities.

I don't have a clue who Art Bell is, nor do I really care. I'm far from hostile and even wild animals trust me. I'll admit to not liking people much, but that's because a lot of people are ... like you lol. That being said, I'm far from isolated. I am what my user name implies ~ a woman who lives on a farm. I've been to a lot of countries, lived in many cities, helped my husband serve this country for many years, and have retired early (since I disagree on how my tax money gets spent) to a farm that is bought and paid for. I care for a lot of animals, have a garden and an orchard, process all of our food except grain, and am responsible for my own water and waste management .... and provide my own electricity sans grid. What I am is capable and determined. I'd miss the internet, but I do have other means of communicating.

What 'you' would do or be able to do under the conditions I listed above is your problem. I know what I will do and unlike most, won't be one of those killing the neighbor over the last loaf of moldy bread. I'm ok with that.



stacymomof2
by Ruby Member on Nov. 16, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I'm sorry, did you think the wheat planing was a detailed disaster plan?  lol

Whatever you say.  I don't know why you can't be self sufficient without insisting everyone else will be wandering aimlessly.  Not everyone lives somewhere where they can grow stuff or have animals.  However as I said before, there is a long history of human beings working together to get things accomplished.  Enjoy your solitude.  Don't worry, when the apocolypse comes I will not be calling you.

Quoting Farmlady09:

That's all well and good ~ but a few questions ... what are you planning to eat while that wheat grows for 4 months (and where would you get the wheat to plant),  why not just figure out a way to power up a bakery that's already built ... or did you have a hand crank grain mill handy and know how to to harvest yeast from the air. And, why on earth do you think people would go do what 'you' told them to?

I don't have some special insight beyond knowing how people have reacted for centuries. There are fairly well documented studies about how people would react ~ and a bizarre one here on CM that thinks I have some hermit hole in the side of a mountain lol (which is wrong btw). There will always be those who shut down, those who wander aimlessly waiting for instructions (and that group btw keeps growing), a group equal to the wanderers that tries to help initially at least, even if it's wrong, a small group that knows what to do and can motivate others to help themselves, and a group that will try to take advantage of all the rest for their own benefit and/or at the expense of others.

There are also groups all over this country that regularly and consistently plan and train for disasters ~ and I'm not referring to emergency personnel. They don't look at web sites or read books and claim they know what to do. Something as simple as starting a fire is a lot harder when you're soaked and cold and shivering. A lot of people find that out the hard way ~ ask any hiker who got lost. There is also emotional baggage that comes with any disaster ... losing a home, a loved one, a pet. Very few people are clinical enough to just ignore that and press on.

You are free to mock me all you like, but the things I do took years to learn. Some of them I am still barely competent at ~ and far from proficiency. Many of the things that would be needed are not available anywhere but an antique shop or buried at the back of flea markets. All of our 'skills' are now specialized ~ the average person can't build an engine from parts, or put together even a rough shelter let alone build a home if theirs is demolished. When that happens people wait for fema to bring trailers ... and water ... and food ... and check their cell phones every other minute to see if they have service back.

All you have to do is read through the questions here at CM ~ how many people are out of groceries when things are normal, how many can't afford heating/cooling, how many don't know whether an injury or illness is serious. The list is endless, but you insist that everyone will just pitch in and starve congenially together waiting on that wheat to grow and ~ supposing you do find seed and manage to grow a field of wheat ~ what happens when an armed party comes and takes it because they didn't have seed/didn't know how to plant it/are starving and don't care about you because they will die if they don't take it.

Take a good look at what's happening in Greece ~ ten years ago no one there would have believed what's going on now could happen. People in NY were dumpster diving for food because of a cat 1 freak storm and trapped in homes up and down the east coast. Short term, knew it was coming, and two weeks out there are still people without power and/or homes. There are buildings where they will be scrubbing down the stench a month from now thanks to dumping bodily wastes in hallways. There was only mild looting, but there were also people pretending to be rescue personnel so they could rob homes. People went without meds, medical attention, etc. That was just one smallish part of the country from a large storm.

I live in a hurricane zone. We get tornadoes regularly and occasional earthquakes and fires. We have nuke plants close by. Tell me again I'm nuts for learning what to do/what not to do, and making sure I can take care of my family, my animals, and myself. I'm part of one of those groups that works together, works with the community and especially the elderly. I've taken the time to learn skills most can't even find books to read about in any longer. What I do is responsible, not nuts.

My opinion of people isn't low ~ but I'm well aware of how many lack even a survival instinct. Again, all you have to do is read through answers here and see how many would prefer not to survive different situations. Seriously, how many who live on microwave meals and takeout are going to be able to feed themselves and/or their children without electricity in a world where the stores might not even have real food on the shelves? That's ok. You keep on telling yourself I'm nuts *G* 


 

Quoting stacymomof2:

For God's sake woman.  

I know you think you have some special insight and your whole "off the grid" militaristic, misanthropic,  Branch Davidian stuff is admirable in it's self sufficiency.  But your view of how the normals (haha) live is completely ridiculous.  Some people have found that people working together can accomplish more than a hermit living in the woods.  

I guess I'm just one of those unimpressive "progressives."  However in a disaster I'm not fighting over moldy bread.  I'm directing a team to plant some wheat, and while we are waiting for it to grow we will get the bakery built, and a road to move the stuff.

Just because you have such a low opinion of people doesn't mean it's a fact.


Quoting Farmlady09:

What you accuse me of has no bearing on reality. Your knowledge of history is bigoted (or you need a refund from your teachers). You also have severe comprehension problems ~ but I'll try again.

California is crushed in debt and depends on the exports/sales of that produce to pay off at least some of the bills. Since it's assumed (not by me necessarily) that the US isn't going to let any state but TX secede peacefully (it has no right to stop TX), then it is presumed that war will ensue should any state dare attempt secession.

War will muck up the already pathetic infrastructure (roads, electric, water, sewer, gas, oil, groceries, medications, and yes, the internet). Life with no rule of law outside of pockets of martial law obviously is not something you understand, or can even start to wrap your head around. I can note the deficiency, but I can't fix it.

Where Cali gets it's water from will be the least of anyone's concern (except each individual trying to find some that might be safe to drink). Aside from other countries I've seen first hand, I live with a combat vet. I'm a mother to a combat vet. I'm the daughter of a combat vet. I said nothing about 'defeating' any military ~ only that I know how to hide what I have from them. I know that because the military people in my family taught me.

You are one of those soft and spoiled people who doesn't appear to have a clue. Again, I can only mention that, I can't fix it for you.

If we have another civil war, more than half the population of this country is likely to die ... and not from anything combat related. Hunger, disease, and violence between citizens will kill off far more than any military entities. That is the reality. I truly feel sorry for anyone living in a city or large town because those people will live through hell before dying. Those who think they can just wander out and hide in the woods ... well, good luck with that because the woods are owned by people who are most likely armed and not in the mood for company. There won't even be rats or pigeons left to catch and eat after a few weeks without trucks bringing in food. People with diabetes, heart problems, cancer, aids/hiv will also die sooner because no hospitals of pharmacies stock meds any more. Anyone with a garden will likely see it stripped bare in a day. Most people will either eat the family dog or it will be stolen and eaten by someone else. Within a two weeks or so, the ... hmmm ... sanitation issues will start causing disease and more death. Anyone injured will likely not be able to get medical care. That is what the first month of a civil war would be like ~ and that's the pretty part. The roaming gangs and looters, the individual nutcases, the drug addicted needing a fix, and the general criminal element will also be out there roaming and sharing their own unique issues.

You go right ahead and fixate on California's water supply or it's ability to sell it's produce (which would also be looted by starving people) lol.

When I say that another civil war is likely imo, I also know exactly what that truly means. Also, since you may not know ~ EVERY military entity would be authorized (and has been since the revolutionary war in the US) to go door to door to confiscate all useful goods. They don't (and won't) care if you starve because they take all your food. They can shoot you if you try to stop them. This includes ON any base installation as well for you military spouses btw ~ the only thing the military cares about is keeping itself operational and supporting whatever government they are reporting to. They get first dibs on food, medical supplies and medication, raw goods for manufacturing, etc.

The US dollar tanking would pretty much cause all of the same problems and hardships, with the added bonus of not being able to buy something that is available because the money would not be worth anything ~ and might BE the initial cause of a civil war.

All of this would be fairly short term as far as duration ~ 2 -6 months. How long it would take to pick up the pieces is not worh guessing at ... and again, presupposing that some other country/countries aren't jumping in to muck things up worse.

Now ~ here you can jump on me for broad brushing some things ~ I would fully expect the Latino/Mexican people to be a huge problem in Cali, NM, AR, and TX. I'd fully expect quite a few Mormons to be acting as leaders in a lot of areas (not to mention eating well). I'd expect most hospitals would be closed or ineffective after looting, especially in major cities.

I don't have a clue who Art Bell is, nor do I really care. I'm far from hostile and even wild animals trust me. I'll admit to not liking people much, but that's because a lot of people are ... like you lol. That being said, I'm far from isolated. I am what my user name implies ~ a woman who lives on a farm. I've been to a lot of countries, lived in many cities, helped my husband serve this country for many years, and have retired early (since I disagree on how my tax money gets spent) to a farm that is bought and paid for. I care for a lot of animals, have a garden and an orchard, process all of our food except grain, and am responsible for my own water and waste management .... and provide my own electricity sans grid. What I am is capable and determined. I'd miss the internet, but I do have other means of communicating.

What 'you' would do or be able to do under the conditions I listed above is your problem. I know what I will do and unlike most, won't be one of those killing the neighbor over the last loaf of moldy bread. I'm ok with that.




Farmlady09
by Silver Member on Nov. 16, 2012 at 1:52 AM

You can't seem to ever read or reply to what I actually say. I didn't say everyone, nor did I imply it. If you want to nit pick every thing I say, at least nit pick what I actually said ~ at least once in a while.

DGIs ...

Quoting stacymomof2:

I'm sorry, did you think the wheat planing was a detailed disaster plan?  lol

Whatever you say.  I don't know why you can't be self sufficient without insisting everyone else will be wandering aimlessly.  Not everyone lives somewhere where they can grow stuff or have animals.  However as I said before, there is a long history of human beings working together to get things accomplished.  Enjoy your solitude.  Don't worry, when the apocolypse comes I will not be calling you.

Quoting Farmlady09:

That's all well and good ~ but a few questions ... what are you planning to eat while that wheat grows for 4 months (and where would you get the wheat to plant),  why not just figure out a way to power up a bakery that's already built ... or did you have a hand crank grain mill handy and know how to to harvest yeast from the air. And, why on earth do you think people would go do what 'you' told them to?

I don't have some special insight beyond knowing how people have reacted for centuries. There are fairly well documented studies about how people would react ~ and a bizarre one here on CM that thinks I have some hermit hole in the side of a mountain lol (which is wrong btw). There will always be those who shut down, those who wander aimlessly waiting for instructions (and that group btw keeps growing), a group equal to the wanderers that tries to help initially at least, even if it's wrong, a small group that knows what to do and can motivate others to help themselves, and a group that will try to take advantage of all the rest for their own benefit and/or at the expense of others.

There are also groups all over this country that regularly and consistently plan and train for disasters ~ and I'm not referring to emergency personnel. They don't look at web sites or read books and claim they know what to do. Something as simple as starting a fire is a lot harder when you're soaked and cold and shivering. A lot of people find that out the hard way ~ ask any hiker who got lost. There is also emotional baggage that comes with any disaster ... losing a home, a loved one, a pet. Very few people are clinical enough to just ignore that and press on.

You are free to mock me all you like, but the things I do took years to learn. Some of them I am still barely competent at ~ and far from proficiency. Many of the things that would be needed are not available anywhere but an antique shop or buried at the back of flea markets. All of our 'skills' are now specialized ~ the average person can't build an engine from parts, or put together even a rough shelter let alone build a home if theirs is demolished. When that happens people wait for fema to bring trailers ... and water ... and food ... and check their cell phones every other minute to see if they have service back.

All you have to do is read through the questions here at CM ~ how many people are out of groceries when things are normal, how many can't afford heating/cooling, how many don't know whether an injury or illness is serious. The list is endless, but you insist that everyone will just pitch in and starve congenially together waiting on that wheat to grow and ~ supposing you do find seed and manage to grow a field of wheat ~ what happens when an armed party comes and takes it because they didn't have seed/didn't know how to plant it/are starving and don't care about you because they will die if they don't take it.

Take a good look at what's happening in Greece ~ ten years ago no one there would have believed what's going on now could happen. People in NY were dumpster diving for food because of a cat 1 freak storm and trapped in homes up and down the east coast. Short term, knew it was coming, and two weeks out there are still people without power and/or homes. There are buildings where they will be scrubbing down the stench a month from now thanks to dumping bodily wastes in hallways. There was only mild looting, but there were also people pretending to be rescue personnel so they could rob homes. People went without meds, medical attention, etc. That was just one smallish part of the country from a large storm.

I live in a hurricane zone. We get tornadoes regularly and occasional earthquakes and fires. We have nuke plants close by. Tell me again I'm nuts for learning what to do/what not to do, and making sure I can take care of my family, my animals, and myself. I'm part of one of those groups that works together, works with the community and especially the elderly. I've taken the time to learn skills most can't even find books to read about in any longer. What I do is responsible, not nuts.

My opinion of people isn't low ~ but I'm well aware of how many lack even a survival instinct. Again, all you have to do is read through answers here and see how many would prefer not to survive different situations. Seriously, how many who live on microwave meals and takeout are going to be able to feed themselves and/or their children without electricity in a world where the stores might not even have real food on the shelves? That's ok. You keep on telling yourself I'm nuts *G* 


 

Quoting stacymomof2:

For God's sake woman.  

I know you think you have some special insight and your whole "off the grid" militaristic, misanthropic,  Branch Davidian stuff is admirable in it's self sufficiency.  But your view of how the normals (haha) live is completely ridiculous.  Some people have found that people working together can accomplish more than a hermit living in the woods.  

I guess I'm just one of those unimpressive "progressives."  However in a disaster I'm not fighting over moldy bread.  I'm directing a team to plant some wheat, and while we are waiting for it to grow we will get the bakery built, and a road to move the stuff.

Just because you have such a low opinion of people doesn't mean it's a fact.

 

Quoting Farmlady09:

What you accuse me of has no bearing on reality. Your knowledge of history is bigoted (or you need a refund from your teachers). You also have severe comprehension problems ~ but I'll try again.

California is crushed in debt and depends on the exports/sales of that produce to pay off at least some of the bills. Since it's assumed (not by me necessarily) that the US isn't going to let any state but TX secede peacefully (it has no right to stop TX), then it is presumed that war will ensue should any state dare attempt secession.

War will muck up the already pathetic infrastructure (roads, electric, water, sewer, gas, oil, groceries, medications, and yes, the internet). Life with no rule of law outside of pockets of martial law obviously is not something you understand, or can even start to wrap your head around. I can note the deficiency, but I can't fix it.

Where Cali gets it's water from will be the least of anyone's concern (except each individual trying to find some that might be safe to drink). Aside from other countries I've seen first hand, I live with a combat vet. I'm a mother to a combat vet. I'm the daughter of a combat vet. I said nothing about 'defeating' any military ~ only that I know how to hide what I have from them. I know that because the military people in my family taught me.

You are one of those soft and spoiled people who doesn't appear to have a clue. Again, I can only mention that, I can't fix it for you.

If we have another civil war, more than half the population of this country is likely to die ... and not from anything combat related. Hunger, disease, and violence between citizens will kill off far more than any military entities. That is the reality. I truly feel sorry for anyone living in a city or large town because those people will live through hell before dying. Those who think they can just wander out and hide in the woods ... well, good luck with that because the woods are owned by people who are most likely armed and not in the mood for company. There won't even be rats or pigeons left to catch and eat after a few weeks without trucks bringing in food. People with diabetes, heart problems, cancer, aids/hiv will also die sooner because no hospitals of pharmacies stock meds any more. Anyone with a garden will likely see it stripped bare in a day. Most people will either eat the family dog or it will be stolen and eaten by someone else. Within a two weeks or so, the ... hmmm ... sanitation issues will start causing disease and more death. Anyone injured will likely not be able to get medical care. That is what the first month of a civil war would be like ~ and that's the pretty part. The roaming gangs and looters, the individual nutcases, the drug addicted needing a fix, and the general criminal element will also be out there roaming and sharing their own unique issues.

You go right ahead and fixate on California's water supply or it's ability to sell it's produce (which would also be looted by starving people) lol.

When I say that another civil war is likely imo, I also know exactly what that truly means. Also, since you may not know ~ EVERY military entity would be authorized (and has been since the revolutionary war in the US) to go door to door to confiscate all useful goods. They don't (and won't) care if you starve because they take all your food. They can shoot you if you try to stop them. This includes ON any base installation as well for you military spouses btw ~ the only thing the military cares about is keeping itself operational and supporting whatever government they are reporting to. They get first dibs on food, medical supplies and medication, raw goods for manufacturing, etc.

The US dollar tanking would pretty much cause all of the same problems and hardships, with the added bonus of not being able to buy something that is available because the money would not be worth anything ~ and might BE the initial cause of a civil war.

All of this would be fairly short term as far as duration ~ 2 -6 months. How long it would take to pick up the pieces is not worh guessing at ... and again, presupposing that some other country/countries aren't jumping in to muck things up worse.

Now ~ here you can jump on me for broad brushing some things ~ I would fully expect the Latino/Mexican people to be a huge problem in Cali, NM, AR, and TX. I'd fully expect quite a few Mormons to be acting as leaders in a lot of areas (not to mention eating well). I'd expect most hospitals would be closed or ineffective after looting, especially in major cities.

I don't have a clue who Art Bell is, nor do I really care. I'm far from hostile and even wild animals trust me. I'll admit to not liking people much, but that's because a lot of people are ... like you lol. That being said, I'm far from isolated. I am what my user name implies ~ a woman who lives on a farm. I've been to a lot of countries, lived in many cities, helped my husband serve this country for many years, and have retired early (since I disagree on how my tax money gets spent) to a farm that is bought and paid for. I care for a lot of animals, have a garden and an orchard, process all of our food except grain, and am responsible for my own water and waste management .... and provide my own electricity sans grid. What I am is capable and determined. I'd miss the internet, but I do have other means of communicating.

What 'you' would do or be able to do under the conditions I listed above is your problem. I know what I will do and unlike most, won't be one of those killing the neighbor over the last loaf of moldy bread. I'm ok with that.


 



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