Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

Current Events & Hot Topics Current Events & Hot Topics

Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

Posted by   + Show Post

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (101-110):
FromAtoZ
by AllieCat on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:10 PM


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."

Quoting blues_pagan:

No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  

As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.

Quoting 12hellokitty:


For life. 

If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  

People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   

(side note I agree with evolution)

Quoting blues_pagan:

On the side of caution for what?  

Quoting 12hellokitty:


Quoting blues_pagan:

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 





Yep.


"A bird doesn't sing because it has an answer, it sings because it has a song." ~ Maya Angelou

12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:10 PM

 

So are you proposing a fetus is an imagined living viable human being? 

Quoting ashellbell:

When you infringe on the rights of an actual living viable human being and hurt them, it's all of our business.



Quoting 12hellokitty:

 



So do you believe rape is wrong?  Because according to this line of logic, if it's not happening to you then it's not your business...




 



Quoting ashellbell:

I'm pretty much the same way. It usually ends with me telling them to mind their own fucking business.




Quoting caito:



People don't like debating abortion with me because I'm very cut and dry about it. I'm pro-choice, period. I don't care about the circumstances, I don't care how they pay for it, I don't care when they do it. If it doesn't personally affect me, I just don't care. They have the right to choose life or abortion, and it should stay that way.




 




blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:11 PM

She is not suggesting it is imagined.  What she is saying that before the point of viability the fetus is in no way a viable living human being.  

Quoting 12hellokitty:


So are you proposing a fetus is an imagined living viable human being? 

Quoting ashellbell:

When you infringe on the rights of an actual living viable human being and hurt them, it's all of our business.



Quoting 12hellokitty:




So do you believe rape is wrong?  Because according to this line of logic, if it's not happening to you then it's not your business...




 



Quoting ashellbell:

I'm pretty much the same way. It usually ends with me telling them to mind their own fucking business.




Quoting caito:



People don't like debating abortion with me because I'm very cut and dry about it. I'm pro-choice, period. I don't care about the circumstances, I don't care how they pay for it, I don't care when they do it. If it doesn't personally affect me, I just don't care. They have the right to choose life or abortion, and it should stay that way.









Kokoscold
by Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:12 PM

What aren't you getting?....... She doesn't believe in god. YOU have brought that in this Conversation. All she stated was you have our op on OUR body I have mine. I will not tell you what to do with yours and you don't have the right to tell me what to do with mine. SIMPLE!!!

So what your saying is "nature" intends for all women to have babies no matter what?...... Are you getting these messages from nature? Does it speak to you directly?

Quoting macbudsmom:

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum

 

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?


 


 


 


The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.


 


GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:13 PM

She was trying to make a reference to if I had been aborted, which my mother did consider btw and almost didn't have a choice because I tried to "abort" myself from 16-30 weeks; I was born at 32 weeks.

Quoting Kokoscold:

If you lived in a vaccum....? I'm sorry is that supposed to be an insult? Vaccums suck?.... I just don't understand. WTF does that mean mean!!!

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?





Rocker.Mom.07
by Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:13 PM

I am pro-mind my own business and pro-don't tell me you had an abortion/keep it to yourself. I disagree with abortion. I am not Pro-life, I am Anit-Abortion. So, unless someone actually asks me specifically about abortion and my thoughts on it...it's not something I talk about. I think very negativly about abortion, not women or the women doing it.

ashellbell
by shellbark on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:13 PM
2 moms liked this
Imagined? No. It, of course, is human. That's basic science. Viability is the bigger issue for me. Is a non viable fetus living? Yup. All cells are living. Is it a life? Nope. And until it becomes one, my life will always be more important.


Quoting 12hellokitty:

 


So are you proposing a fetus is an imagined living viable human being? 


Quoting ashellbell:

When you infringe on the rights of an actual living viable human being and hurt them, it's all of our business.




Quoting 12hellokitty:


 




So do you believe rape is wrong?  Because according to this line of logic, if it's not happening to you then it's not your business...





 




Quoting ashellbell:

I'm pretty much the same way. It usually ends with me telling them to mind their own fucking business.





Quoting caito:




People don't like debating abortion with me because I'm very cut and dry about it. I'm pro-choice, period. I don't care about the circumstances, I don't care how they pay for it, I don't care when they do it. If it doesn't personally affect me, I just don't care. They have the right to choose life or abortion, and it should stay that way.





 






Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Well I appreciate you telling your story and putting a real life perspective on the whole thing. Fetuses don't stay fetuses or babies, they grow in to grown people who are actually effected by the choices their parents make or are pressured to make. And the result isn't always sunshine and rainbows.

Quoting ashellbell:

Unfortunately, most of the anti choicers will skip past it. If only I were a fetus telling the story.


Quoting Peanutx3:

I don't get it either.  It seems like they just can't see the forest through the trees.  There are very real consequences after a rape or incest.  A fetus is not just an inconvenience.  I thank you for sharing your story.  I can only imagine how hard it is to share it.

Quoting ashellbell:

I'm dealing with it. This topic really frustrates me, but I think it helps me cope and talk about it. No one seems to look at all sides of the spectrum, they just have an image of 9 month old babies being slaughtered. I just don't get it.





Quoting Peanutx3:

Hugs to you.

Quoting ashellbell:

For the women who say it's just an inconvenience to the mother for 9 months, your head has cracked open and your brains have fallen out. My mother got pregnant with me out of a rape scenario, she CHOSE to continue with the pregnancy (with the pressure of my super religious, morality imposing family). My mother was inconvenienced for 12 years. I was inconvenienced for 12 years. My mother loved me, no doubt, but I saw the resentment, the pain, the memory, the hate every time she looked at me. She was reminded of what that man did to her every time she looked at her child. I sincerely believe it prevented her from dealing with what happened to her. She turned to drugs and abusive men and wound up with a bullet in her head. Before her rape and pressured pregnancy, she was an honor student, had a scholarship, was ready to take on the world. I feel partially responsible for her death (yes, yes, I know I'm not, but until you've been there, you wouldn't understand). I know some of you will say 'well I was raped (or insert whoever you know was raped) and I pulled past it and it's been a blessing' well, good for you, but not everyone is you. Stop looking down your little scope of judgment and realize you you handle things shouldn't be pressed on the rest of us. And since someone will be crass enough to ask, am I glad my mom chose to carry to term? Am I glad she didn't abort me? As a mother myself, I wish she would've made the decision that was best for her. My 8 week fetus self should not have been held at higher regards than hers. Inconvenienced for 9 months my ass.







12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:17 PM

So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."

Quoting blues_pagan:

No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  

As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

For life. 

If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  

People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   

(side note I agree with evolution)

Quoting blues_pagan:

On the side of caution for what?  

Quoting 12hellokitty:

 

Quoting blues_pagan:

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 


 




ashleyrenee24
by Ashley on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:18 PM
1 mom liked this

To me, a embryo is a potential person, not a actual person. Sure, it has human DNA, but so does cancer.

Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)