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Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

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The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (131-140):
GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM

According to my OB gen pop is at about 50% with BC use and considering the small sample Cafemom it seems about right.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol on CafeMom the failure rate of birth control is much higher than the general population

Quoting jlo1313:

I fell into that 5% category...TWICE!  I used my bc very precisely and got pregnant both times on it.  I kept those kids FTR.  I agree we make the choice to have sex, and it is also pleasurable and fun healthy to have sex. 

Why do abortions have to be made illegal?  Because there are bunch of "Do what I say and believe what I believe" people out there.  Did you know there are far more "do what you want to do" people out there? 

I agree if you choose to abort a fetus and you die, those are the consequences.  Just like if you choose to shoot up with heroin and you die from an overdose, I don't really care.  But how is making abortion illegal because a few people die from it going to help the bigger problem?  (hint:  the bigger problem is the stuff I listed in my first reply)  Wouldn't it behoove us as a society to look around at the current situation without emotion and say it is what it is and how to do we as a society now "control" or isolate the problem?  I say we do that by keeping abortion legal, cheap, private and educate women on when, where & how to obtain one, how to use their birth control, how their bodys really work, and the realistic version of parenthood, instead of the idealistic one.

Quoting macbudsmom:

It is a fact of life that around 5% of those accurately using bc will become pregnant.  It is a choice they make to accept that risk when they have sex.

If abortions are made illegal and a woman still choses to abort in an unsafe manner and she dies from that, it would not be the laws fault, but simply a consequence of her actions.

Quoting jlo1313:

At what cost is this 9 month "inconvenience"?  For some women, especially in my field, it is their career.  Also their physical and mental health.  There is a great deal of financial obligation that comes with a healthy pregnancy, labor and delivery.  Getting pregnant is hardly free.  Then there are relationships that are destroyed because so many people are on their high horse with judgement. 

A 9 month inconvenience is life destroying for many women. 

If we took the mental attachment to people and "what ifs" (meaning what if this person we aborted was the next Einstein" and we take religious views out of the picture, what are we left with.  We are left with the fact that a POSSIBLE human is removed from its host.  Plain and simple.  Babies die during birth, modern medicine helps that out, but it still happens.  Infants and children die from disease or inadequate development and from unknown causes prior to becoming "anyone".

Without abortion being legal, women will end pregnancies in other ways that are far more lethal and harmful to them, child abuse and child neglect cases are going to fill the  court system and prisons, states will be responsible for thousands more than they can handle in already overloaded systems, consequences of the abuse, neglect, poor parenting are going to continue to overload our system and burden society.  We already see too much evidence of that today because of religious views and stigma and public shaming. 

You are free to choose what is right for you morally, but why do you have to convey that upon others, shame them for it, add to the growing problems we already have in our country?  I feel unless you have the "cure-all solution" and are willing to stand up with a cost effective answer for society, its best to just side on the pro-choice, choose your own rights and wrongs and let other people choose what is best for them and keep your judgements private and personal thoughts.  (General pro-life you...not you directly). 

Adoption is not the answer, government systems are not the answer, Mother Teresa couldn't save all the orphans and abused children, so churches aren't the answer.  Why can't choice without fear be the answer for some?

Quoting macbudsmom:

Because your belief if wrong has killed an innocent child.  If my belief is wrong, a woman has only been "inconvenienced" for 9 months.

Quoting blues_pagan:

It is only murder if you believe that the fetus is a person who has certain rights.  I do not.  So why should your beliefs override mine?  

Quoting macbudsmom:

Murder is wrong no matter if it happens to someone I personally knew or a stranger down the street.

Quoting blues_pagan:

How does abortion affect you?  And don't say  "what if that baby was going to grow up and do something great" because that baby could equally become the next Manson or Dahmer.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?












ashellbell
by shellbark on Nov. 15, 2012 at 1:58 PM
I want one later, can't I just practice for a while first??!!


Quoting pansyprincess:

Do you want a baby?  If not, no sex for you.


Quoting ashellbell:

I really enjoy sex. I think my SO would be a little more than unhappy if I took it away...seems reasonable doesn't it?



Quoting pansyprincess:


What does the possibility of becoming pregnant have to do with anything?  So what ... she becomes pregnant.  there are a lot of choices she can then make ... keep the baby, give it up, or abort it.  Most normal people are going to continue to have sex, even if they don't want a baby.



Quoting 12hellokitty:



So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 



Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:



I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."



Quoting blues_pagan:



No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  



As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.



Quoting 12hellokitty:



 



For life. 



If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  



People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   



(side note I agree with evolution)



Quoting blues_pagan:



On the side of caution for what?  



Quoting 12hellokitty:



 



Quoting blues_pagan:





The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?



Here



http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf



or let me just summarize it for you.



Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.



Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  



Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception



Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA



Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.



At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 



So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.



With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  



If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 






 









 



 





Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
pansyprincess
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM

alright ... as long as you promise to keep any baby that may be conceived, you may continue to have sex.  I, on the other hand, want no more children.  So I will inform my hubby tonight that we are going to abstain until I hit menopause!

He will be very happy to know of all the lives he will be saving.

Quoting ashellbell:

I want one later, can't I just practice for a while first??!!


Quoting pansyprincess:

Do you want a baby?  If not, no sex for you.


Quoting ashellbell:

I really enjoy sex. I think my SO would be a little more than unhappy if I took it away...seems reasonable doesn't it?



Quoting pansyprincess:


What does the possibility of becoming pregnant have to do with anything?  So what ... she becomes pregnant.  there are a lot of choices she can then make ... keep the baby, give it up, or abort it.  Most normal people are going to continue to have sex, even if they don't want a baby.



Quoting 12hellokitty:



So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 



Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:



I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."



Quoting blues_pagan:



No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  



As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.



Quoting 12hellokitty:



 



For life. 



If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  



People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   



(side note I agree with evolution)



Quoting blues_pagan:



On the side of caution for what?  



Quoting 12hellokitty:



 



Quoting blues_pagan:





The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?



Here



http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf



or let me just summarize it for you.



Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.



Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  



Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception



Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA



Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.



At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 



So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.



With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  



If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 






 









 



 



 



GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:02 PM

Damn...now how to get the men folk to agree with this?

Quoting pansyprincess:

Do you want a baby?  If not, no sex for you.

Quoting ashellbell:

I really enjoy sex. I think my SO would be a little more than unhappy if I took it away...seems reasonable doesn't it?


Quoting pansyprincess:

What does the possibility of becoming pregnant have to do with anything?  So what ... she becomes pregnant.  there are a lot of choices she can then make ... keep the baby, give it up, or abort it.  Most normal people are going to continue to have sex, even if they don't want a baby.


Quoting 12hellokitty:


So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:


I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."


Quoting blues_pagan:


No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  


As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.


Quoting 12hellokitty:




For life. 


If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  


People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   


(side note I agree with evolution)


Quoting blues_pagan:


On the side of caution for what?  


Quoting 12hellokitty:




Quoting blues_pagan:



The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?


Here


http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf


or let me just summarize it for you.


Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.


Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  


Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception


Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA


Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.


At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 


So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.


With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  


If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 
















GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:04 PM

i told my husband that and he said no hell.

not to mention it is grounds for a divorce, unless we must accept our husbands sleeping with whores like in the good ol' days some of these ladies long for.

Quoting pansyprincess:

alright ... as long as you promise to keep any baby that may be conceived, you may continue to have sex.  I, on the other hand, want no more children.  So I will inform my hubby tonight that we are going to abstain until I hit menopause!

He will be very happy to know of all the lives he will be saving.

Quoting ashellbell:

I want one later, can't I just practice for a while first??!!


Quoting pansyprincess:

Do you want a baby?  If not, no sex for you.


Quoting ashellbell:

I really enjoy sex. I think my SO would be a little more than unhappy if I took it away...seems reasonable doesn't it?



Quoting pansyprincess:


What does the possibility of becoming pregnant have to do with anything?  So what ... she becomes pregnant.  there are a lot of choices she can then make ... keep the baby, give it up, or abort it.  Most normal people are going to continue to have sex, even if they don't want a baby.



Quoting 12hellokitty:



So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 



Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:



I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."



Quoting blues_pagan:



No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  



As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.



Quoting 12hellokitty:






For life. 



If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  



People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   



(side note I agree with evolution)



Quoting blues_pagan:



On the side of caution for what?  



Quoting 12hellokitty:






Quoting blues_pagan:





The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?



Here



http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf



or let me just summarize it for you.



Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.



Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  



Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception



Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA



Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.



At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 



So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.



With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  



If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 

























craftymomo2g
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:06 PM

There are consequences to our actions everyday. There are so many choices out here that allow a woman to have unprotected sex and still not get pregnant.

You are controlling your body by taking a pill to NOT get pregnant not have unprotected sex get pregnant and then want to terminate the pregnancy really?

Life is all about choices some good some bad, but we have them.

Quoting pansyprincess:

So?  I feel like people have never had amazing sex if just once they haven't gotten caught up in the moment and had unprotected sex.  shit happens in the heat of the moment.  One bad choice equals you have to be a mom?

I think the beauty of being a woman is being able to control my own body.

Quoting craftymomo2g:

Everyone talks about rape being the excuse to have an abortion. If a woman is raped she is able to go to the hospital and recieve treatment like plan b. This whole notion that because it is our bodies we should be ok with aborting an innocent child is beyond me. We should be women who encourage life not take it away. That is the beauty of being a woman.

All the women that I know that had a an abortion was not raped but had unprotected sex which is 95% of the above cases.




ashellbell
by shellbark on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:07 PM
Hahaha, I just told SO what you said and he said, ' I hope for her husbands sake she hits menopause tomorrow'.


Quoting pansyprincess:

alright ... as long as you promise to keep any baby that may be conceived, you may continue to have sex.  I, on the other hand, want no more children.  So I will inform my hubby tonight that we are going to abstain until I hit menopause!


He will be very happy to know of all the lives he will be saving.


Quoting ashellbell:

I want one later, can't I just practice for a while first??!!



Quoting pansyprincess:


Do you want a baby?  If not, no sex for you.



Quoting ashellbell:

I really enjoy sex. I think my SO would be a little more than unhappy if I took it away...seems reasonable doesn't it?




Quoting pansyprincess:



What does the possibility of becoming pregnant have to do with anything?  So what ... she becomes pregnant.  there are a lot of choices she can then make ... keep the baby, give it up, or abort it.  Most normal people are going to continue to have sex, even if they don't want a baby.




Quoting 12hellokitty:




So then wouldn't you think a woman old enough to procreate wouldn't be stupid enough to have sex without accounting for the possibility of becoming pregnant? 




Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:




I'm just glad she finally explained the damn box in the road scenario because she tried it in another abortion debate and got mad when no one would give a straight yes or no answer and in my mind I would not have thought of a child old enough to play outside my themselves as dumb enough to hide in a box in the middle of the street. It's a dumb point to try to make when most reasonable people would avoid a box that big anyway as not to mess up there car. Most reasonable people would not see a box in the street and think "oh no the puppies, the kittens, the children."




Quoting blues_pagan:




No, I would avoid so as not to harm my car.  




As for the rest, I can't agree with anything you say here.  I will leave it at that since I am tired of repeating myself.




Quoting 12hellokitty:




 




For life. 




If you were driving down a road where children were playing and there was a box in the middle of the road, would you not try to safely avoid the box out of caution that a child may be hiding in the box?  




People expect everyone to be in agreement regarding evolution without question, yet evolution can not be proven 100%.  But when it comes to the issue of when life begins, to justify a woman's right to choose people are free to make up their own standards.  Science overwhelmingly agrees life begins at conception.  This is why often the debate becomes about quality of life with many people defending abortion based on predicting what environment the baby will be born into.  There are many people in the medical field attempting to make a moral case for not only partial birth abortion, but also post birth abortion.   




(side note I agree with evolution)




Quoting blues_pagan:




On the side of caution for what?  




Quoting 12hellokitty:




 




Quoting blues_pagan:







The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?




Here




http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf




or let me just summarize it for you.




Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.




Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  




Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception




Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA




Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.




At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 




So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.




With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  




If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 








 












 




 




 





Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
Angie_O
by Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:11 PM

I believe it is up to each woman to decide what is right for her and her situation. What many just do not take into consideration is she will have to live with her decision for life. 

Those unwanted children generally come into this world and live on welfare, costing us money daily. If she was allowed to abort, then it would in the end save the govt. Those kids are also beaten, ignored, treated like shit on a daily basis. Some survive, some don't, all remember and some wish they were dead and never born in the first place.

We as a society need to quit minding everyone else's bedroom business and their rights to their bodies and start worrying about our own issues.

Oh and I was pretty damn pissed when three of my fetuses (sp) decided to abort themselves without my permission ;)

ReginaStar
by Gold Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:23 PM
2 moms liked this

I haven't read all this but I will say this. I am pro-life. However I no longer wish to pursue overturning Roe vs Wade. I realize that a progressive America includes having the right to end a pregnancy. I also realize that the difference between me and someone who is pro-choice is merely opinions on the way we view an unborn child as citizens of our community. I accept that even though I don't agree with it or like it that this a right in our society and my opinion is merely personal. 

jlo1313
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM

First of all, many young women out there do not know about plan B in the case of rape, they live in fear of talking about having sex with their parents of any type, forced or willing.  They can't get helped when they don't know.  Second, plan B has to be executed within a certain time frame, most girls don't think about this and when they find out they're pregnant it is too late for plan B.  Third, why do women need to encourage life?  Just because we physically harbor life during pregnancy doesn't mean we agree with it, it is simply a biological thing, not an automatic emotional connection.  Being female doesn't mean we can save a life either or stop death from happening.  We are simply biologically equipped to sustain and birth, it does not automatically mean we can nurture and love and protect, that part comes from the brain, not the uterus. 

You are right, a very small percentage of women obtaining abortions are raped.  Some have unprotected sex willingly, but a large percentage are also using birth control and it is ineffective either chemically or by user error.  So because of that we should not allow abortion?  You can put all the education and correct information out there and there will also be just as much incorrect information, irresponsibility, etc to counteract it.  There will always be human error, ignorance, etc.  I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay for every single "human error" for their lifetimes via government assistance, etc.  I don't want to continue to read about child abuse and child neglect that if we traced it back is mostly because of these human errors, etc.  I would rather hear about a woman getting an abortion than starving her 8 year old and locking them in a basement for years. 

Quoting craftymomo2g:

Everyone talks about rape being the excuse to have an abortion. If a woman is raped she is able to go to the hospital and recieve treatment like plan b. This whole notion that because it is our bodies we should be ok with aborting an innocent child is beyond me. We should be women who encourage life not take it away. That is the beauty of being a woman.

All the women that I know that had a an abortion was not raped but had unprotected sex which is 95% of the above cases.



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