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Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

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The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (351-355):
blues_pagan
by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 11:43 AM

Surrogacy is an interesting question.  Many times the women who carry for another do so under a contract.  They promise to carry to term and take care of themselves so that the fetus can grow and develop normally.  They do so in some cases for payment and health care.  It is an understanding.  In that, she gives up many rights to her body and the choices that she would otherwise have.  

I just don't feel that a mother who became pregnant without meaning to should be help to those same standards.  She is under no contractual obligation to carry to term.  She is under no agreement with anyone that a baby will come of the pregnancy.  So with that, she is under to obligation to carry to term if she doesn't want to.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

and that is your belief. I do not share in that relgious belief. for me my baby was my BABY as soon as I saw a BFP. i also carried it to term both times. its fine that you share a different way of viewing it.  we call it what we wnat fetus, zygote, baby.. but i belive many of us in our hearts feel its our baby at all stages.

 if we reallly want to debate.. what about a surgate sp? if she carries a baby for a mother ..  what " right" does she have over her body? since now  its her body  holding the baby? you don't have  to answer... just a interesting thought. as i said im NOT looking to chnage anyones beliefs. im the last person on that  line trust me. I just enjoy  asking & getting into  others heads to understand where they stand & why.

Quoting blues_pagan:

I chose to carry to term (obviously lol) but I did not recognize by DD as a "baby" until it was obvious that I would carry her to term and deliver her.  I called everything from fetus, zygote and embryo up until she had more human like characteristics.  Mainly because it is my belief that there is no sentient life or "soul" in the child until the point of crowning (my own religious belief).  

And once again, that 10 month old baby can be cared for by anyone.  A fetus cannot, the woman who is carrying it would be forced to do something she might not want to do.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

and yes, i say " baby" at any point b/c once we get preg & see that BFP do we all say there's a  bunch of cells in me? or do we right away  say we are with baby! babies at any stage be  it before brain function or a heart beat or  a 10 month old who cant walk yet are   beings & humans &  are not " viable" w/o us.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I still stand my ground. I see it as I do. a baby inside or out is NOT  able to care for itself w/o  someone else be it a womb or a mom or caregiver. it relies on someone else to keep it alive. period. It's a mothers choice to continue to nuture it in her body if not born yet, or to care for it outside her body or in a NICU  & so on.  

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a flaw in this arguement.  The 1 or 2 year old can survive if cared for by someone else.  The embryo, fetus or whatever you want to call it cannot survive on it's own outside of the womb and it can't be placed into another woman who would want it.  Until that happens it needs to be the womans choice as to what happens to her body.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

a 1 or even 2  yr old can't  survive on its own either maybe older.. are they not viable human beings  as well then?

Quoting mikiemom:

why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?" why don't you accept that at 4 weeks the embryo is not able to survive on it's own and therefore is not a viable human being, there is no brain function at that point.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?









blues_pagan
by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 11:44 AM

From your replies I took it that you are Pro-Life.  My mistake, sorry.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I;m not pro life. please stop assuming things about  me you do not know.. again, i am not forcing my beliefs in any way direct or indirect.

Quoting blues_pagan:

You support the Pro-Life agenda.  Would you vote for someone who promised to overturn Roe v Wade and end the right to have an abortion?  Would you support a bill or politician who would want to shut down planned parenthood?  If you do then that is forcing your beliefs onto other.  It may not be directly but you are doing so indirectly.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I know it's fine to have  my own belief. But thanks for the  go ahead anyway.. when did I "force" anything in anyone? Im well aware peple dont agree with me . Im not trying to change their minds. its a DEBATE its where we all discuss & ask questions & state our belief dont assume I am forcing anything when im obvisouly not.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And having that belief for yourself is just fine.  But why force it on other women who may not agree with your point of view?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I still stand my ground. I see it as I do. a baby inside or out is NOT  able to care for itself w/o  someone else be it a womb or a mom or caregiver. it relies on someone else to keep it alive. period. It's a mothers choice to continue to nuture it in her body if not born yet, or to care for it outside her body or in a NICU  & so on.  

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a flaw in this arguement.  The 1 or 2 year old can survive if cared for by someone else.  The embryo, fetus or whatever you want to call it cannot survive on it's own outside of the womb and it can't be placed into another woman who would want it.  Until that happens it needs to be the womans choice as to what happens to her body.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

a 1 or even 2  yr old can't  survive on its own either maybe older.. are they not viable human beings  as well then?

Quoting mikiemom:

why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?" why don't you accept that at 4 weeks the embryo is not able to survive on it's own and therefore is not a viable human being, there is no brain function at that point.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?










Imjustinsmommy
by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 11:48 AM

in a debate, like this.. many like me  like to ask questions to see  what argument holds. where  the other one stands.. it doesn't always mean im attacking you or not   agreeing  w/ you. no i am not pro life.. do i like abortion? no. did i every have one? no, would  i? highly doubt it id say no.   do I think many do it too often as birth control.. yes.  do i  wish more woudl do adoption instead , yes.. but am i pro choice? yes. i belive  a mother does have that right but not  for the same reasons as you.

Quoting blues_pagan:

From your replies I took it that you are Pro-Life.  My mistake, sorry.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I;m not pro life. please stop assuming things about  me you do not know.. again, i am not forcing my beliefs in any way direct or indirect.

Quoting blues_pagan:

You support the Pro-Life agenda.  Would you vote for someone who promised to overturn Roe v Wade and end the right to have an abortion?  Would you support a bill or politician who would want to shut down planned parenthood?  If you do then that is forcing your beliefs onto other.  It may not be directly but you are doing so indirectly.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I know it's fine to have  my own belief. But thanks for the  go ahead anyway.. when did I "force" anything in anyone? Im well aware peple dont agree with me . Im not trying to change their minds. its a DEBATE its where we all discuss & ask questions & state our belief dont assume I am forcing anything when im obvisouly not.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And having that belief for yourself is just fine.  But why force it on other women who may not agree with your point of view?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I still stand my ground. I see it as I do. a baby inside or out is NOT  able to care for itself w/o  someone else be it a womb or a mom or caregiver. it relies on someone else to keep it alive. period. It's a mothers choice to continue to nuture it in her body if not born yet, or to care for it outside her body or in a NICU  & so on.  

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a flaw in this arguement.  The 1 or 2 year old can survive if cared for by someone else.  The embryo, fetus or whatever you want to call it cannot survive on it's own outside of the womb and it can't be placed into another woman who would want it.  Until that happens it needs to be the womans choice as to what happens to her body.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

a 1 or even 2  yr old can't  survive on its own either maybe older.. are they not viable human beings  as well then?

Quoting mikiemom:

why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?" why don't you accept that at 4 weeks the embryo is not able to survive on it's own and therefore is not a viable human being, there is no brain function at that point.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?











blues_pagan
by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 12:02 PM

What are your reasons?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

in a debate, like this.. many like me  like to ask questions to see  what argument holds. where  the other one stands.. it doesn't always mean im attacking you or not   agreeing  w/ you. no i am not pro life.. do i like abortion? no. did i every have one? no, would  i? highly doubt it id say no.   do I think many do it too often as birth control.. yes.  do i  wish more woudl do adoption instead , yes.. but am i pro choice? yes. i belive  a mother does have that right but not  for the same reasons as you.

Quoting blues_pagan:

From your replies I took it that you are Pro-Life.  My mistake, sorry.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I;m not pro life. please stop assuming things about  me you do not know.. again, i am not forcing my beliefs in any way direct or indirect.

Quoting blues_pagan:

You support the Pro-Life agenda.  Would you vote for someone who promised to overturn Roe v Wade and end the right to have an abortion?  Would you support a bill or politician who would want to shut down planned parenthood?  If you do then that is forcing your beliefs onto other.  It may not be directly but you are doing so indirectly.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I know it's fine to have  my own belief. But thanks for the  go ahead anyway.. when did I "force" anything in anyone? Im well aware peple dont agree with me . Im not trying to change their minds. its a DEBATE its where we all discuss & ask questions & state our belief dont assume I am forcing anything when im obvisouly not.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And having that belief for yourself is just fine.  But why force it on other women who may not agree with your point of view?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I still stand my ground. I see it as I do. a baby inside or out is NOT  able to care for itself w/o  someone else be it a womb or a mom or caregiver. it relies on someone else to keep it alive. period. It's a mothers choice to continue to nuture it in her body if not born yet, or to care for it outside her body or in a NICU  & so on.  

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a flaw in this arguement.  The 1 or 2 year old can survive if cared for by someone else.  The embryo, fetus or whatever you want to call it cannot survive on it's own outside of the womb and it can't be placed into another woman who would want it.  Until that happens it needs to be the womans choice as to what happens to her body.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

a 1 or even 2  yr old can't  survive on its own either maybe older.. are they not viable human beings  as well then?

Quoting mikiemom:

why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?" why don't you accept that at 4 weeks the embryo is not able to survive on it's own and therefore is not a viable human being, there is no brain function at that point.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?












Imjustinsmommy
by on Nov. 18, 2012 at 12:09 PM

womans personal rights of their bodies more so than the  " baby" is nto a baby yet. for me i cant even take  the morning after pill.. id feel i was in the way of nature & what if conception happened? this happened to me we had 2 boys my last in jan he is 10 mos now.. im 40 yrs old & were tired. we only wanted 2 & said no way. but then the condom broke the DAY i ovulated! what are the chances of that line  up??? i freaked  we thought of the  pill  but i coudlnt do it... personally i felt.. this felt too  perfectly put together by some higher power  ( no im not christian  so not jesus)..  so i said if i was meant to & this was a gift i will do it.. &  did the longest 2ww ever! b/c i flet in my heart... i knew how hard it is  for many to  have conception happen.. so if it did even with a condom used... it was menat to be... thankfully for us... i got af naturally & my conscious was rested at that. im looking into an IUD now. b/c i dont ever want to be int hat postion... but i know some  would go & get a  abortion if they got preg.. i wouln;t but how I feel doesnt mean its how everyone should  feel i get it.  i live my life kinda like a pro lifer yes for ME but i respect  not everyone else feels how i feel. its not relgious  for me its just what my heart feels. im also a vegan & a homebirther.. i never push that on anyone  either i cook meat for my  family.. live & let live.

Quoting blues_pagan:

What are your reasons?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

in a debate, like this.. many like me  like to ask questions to see  what argument holds. where  the other one stands.. it doesn't always mean im attacking you or not   agreeing  w/ you. no i am not pro life.. do i like abortion? no. did i every have one? no, would  i? highly doubt it id say no.   do I think many do it too often as birth control.. yes.  do i  wish more woudl do adoption instead , yes.. but am i pro choice? yes. i belive  a mother does have that right but not  for the same reasons as you.

Quoting blues_pagan:

From your replies I took it that you are Pro-Life.  My mistake, sorry.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I;m not pro life. please stop assuming things about  me you do not know.. again, i am not forcing my beliefs in any way direct or indirect.

Quoting blues_pagan:

You support the Pro-Life agenda.  Would you vote for someone who promised to overturn Roe v Wade and end the right to have an abortion?  Would you support a bill or politician who would want to shut down planned parenthood?  If you do then that is forcing your beliefs onto other.  It may not be directly but you are doing so indirectly.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I know it's fine to have  my own belief. But thanks for the  go ahead anyway.. when did I "force" anything in anyone? Im well aware peple dont agree with me . Im not trying to change their minds. its a DEBATE its where we all discuss & ask questions & state our belief dont assume I am forcing anything when im obvisouly not.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And having that belief for yourself is just fine.  But why force it on other women who may not agree with your point of view?

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

I still stand my ground. I see it as I do. a baby inside or out is NOT  able to care for itself w/o  someone else be it a womb or a mom or caregiver. it relies on someone else to keep it alive. period. It's a mothers choice to continue to nuture it in her body if not born yet, or to care for it outside her body or in a NICU  & so on.  

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a flaw in this arguement.  The 1 or 2 year old can survive if cared for by someone else.  The embryo, fetus or whatever you want to call it cannot survive on it's own outside of the womb and it can't be placed into another woman who would want it.  Until that happens it needs to be the womans choice as to what happens to her body.

Quoting Imjustinsmommy:

a 1 or even 2  yr old can't  survive on its own either maybe older.. are they not viable human beings  as well then?

Quoting mikiemom:

why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?" why don't you accept that at 4 weeks the embryo is not able to survive on it's own and therefore is not a viable human being, there is no brain function at that point.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?













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