Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)

Current Events & Hot Topics Current Events & Hot Topics

Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

Posted by   + Show Post

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (31-40):
macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?





AMBG825
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM
No no no.

After the baby is born you are perfectly able to drown it in a toilet dump it in a trash can beat it whatever. Just can't do it in utero.


Quoting blues_pagan:

And then you deal with things such as Post Pardum Depression and many other issues that arise after pregnancy.  It is not just nine months.

Quoting macbudsmom:


Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?



Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 


Posted on CafeMom Mobile
blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:38 AM
1 mom liked this

Have to say that your arguement is much more flawed than hers.  There are some basic human codes of decency by which all can adhere to.  Do not harm those who you come in contact with, don't steal, don't lie.  Easy rules that apply to those of us who have the conscience to identify moral and immoral acts.  So, yes you can do whatever you want but actions have consequences.  

With that, the only thing that happens in an abortion is that a woman makes a choice about her life and her body.  It in no way affects you or the grand scheme of things.  She will have to be the one to move on with the choice she has made, not me and not you.  

Quoting macbudsmom:

I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument.  Calling me obtuse doesn't change what is.

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 

And again, what you feel is only 9 months, what you feel is right, does not equate to what is right for another.

You most certainly do not have to like the idea of a woman having an abortion.  You don't even have to like the woman.   But your own opinions are just that.  Yours.  You cannot force others to think or feel as  you do. Nor should you think you can.

You're right.  Why do have rules or expected codes of conduct at all?  Everyone should act however they deem fit regardless of the results.

Oh, for goodness sakes.  Stop being obtuse.  It does not look well on you.

You are narrow minded and only thinking of the 'results' that fit your mind set.  You cannot realize reality is not how you see it or what you feel it should be.




macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:39 AM

Yes there are complications at times.  Hell in life there are simply going to be crappy things that happen to us, but you take the good with the bad and you deal with it.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And then you deal with things such as Post Pardum Depression and many other issues that arise after pregnancy.  It is not just nine months.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 



blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:40 AM

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?






macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM

You are right, it doesn't affect me, but it does affect another at least 1 other human being and therefore your basic human codes of decency must apply.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Have to say that your arguement is much more flawed than hers.  There are some basic human codes of decency by which all can adhere to.  Do not harm those who you come in contact with, don't steal, don't lie.  Easy rules that apply to those of us who have the conscience to identify moral and immoral acts.  So, yes you can do whatever you want but actions have consequences.  

With that, the only thing that happens in an abortion is that a woman makes a choice about her life and her body.  It in no way affects you or the grand scheme of things.  She will have to be the one to move on with the choice she has made, not me and not you.  

Quoting macbudsmom:

I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument.  Calling me obtuse doesn't change what is.

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 

And again, what you feel is only 9 months, what you feel is right, does not equate to what is right for another.

You most certainly do not have to like the idea of a woman having an abortion.  You don't even have to like the woman.   But your own opinions are just that.  Yours.  You cannot force others to think or feel as  you do. Nor should you think you can.

You're right.  Why do have rules or expected codes of conduct at all?  Everyone should act however they deem fit regardless of the results.

Oh, for goodness sakes.  Stop being obtuse.  It does not look well on you.

You are narrow minded and only thinking of the 'results' that fit your mind set.  You cannot realize reality is not how you see it or what you feel it should be.





ashleyrenee24
by Ashley on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:42 AM
Same here.

Quoting romalove:

 


Quoting macbudsmom:


I do accept that.  I believe in birth control, family planning, etc... Birth control, when used correctly, is generally more than 95% effective.


Quoting mikiemom:


why don't you accept that every woman has the human right to decide how often and when she has children?"


Quoting macbudsmom:


I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.


What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?


 


 


 I differentiate between sentient and non-sentient life.


 

Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:42 AM

So you would tell a rape victim who is contemplating suicide after she gives birth to just deal with it?  Or what about a victim of incest? 

This is, once again, your own personal beliefs.  And you never did answer my question as to why your beliefs override mine.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes there are complications at times.  Hell in life there are simply going to be crappy things that happen to us, but you take the good with the bad and you deal with it.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And then you deal with things such as Post Pardum Depression and many other issues that arise after pregnancy.  It is not just nine months.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 




macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:43 AM
1 mom liked this

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?







blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:43 AM

No, you believe that it is affecting at least one other human being.  I see no other human being in the picture other than the woman.  I see a potential for a human life but it is no more than that at the point before viablity.

Quoting macbudsmom:

You are right, it doesn't affect me, but it does affect another at least 1 other human being and therefore your basic human codes of decency must apply.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Have to say that your arguement is much more flawed than hers.  There are some basic human codes of decency by which all can adhere to.  Do not harm those who you come in contact with, don't steal, don't lie.  Easy rules that apply to those of us who have the conscience to identify moral and immoral acts.  So, yes you can do whatever you want but actions have consequences.  

With that, the only thing that happens in an abortion is that a woman makes a choice about her life and her body.  It in no way affects you or the grand scheme of things.  She will have to be the one to move on with the choice she has made, not me and not you.  

Quoting macbudsmom:

I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument.  Calling me obtuse doesn't change what is.

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 

And again, what you feel is only 9 months, what you feel is right, does not equate to what is right for another.

You most certainly do not have to like the idea of a woman having an abortion.  You don't even have to like the woman.   But your own opinions are just that.  Yours.  You cannot force others to think or feel as  you do. Nor should you think you can.

You're right.  Why do have rules or expected codes of conduct at all?  Everyone should act however they deem fit regardless of the results.

Oh, for goodness sakes.  Stop being obtuse.  It does not look well on you.

You are narrow minded and only thinking of the 'results' that fit your mind set.  You cannot realize reality is not how you see it or what you feel it should be.






Add your quick reply below:
You must be a member to reply to this post.
Join the Meeting Place for Moms!
Talk to other moms, share advice, and have fun!

(minimum 6 characters)