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Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

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The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (41-50):
blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:44 AM

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:46 AM

UH No It's not just 9 months. Like I said. Someone's God, morals, book. I forgot Arrogance has to interfere with anothers CHOICES. Pro-life/anti-choice equals Control Freak. No one should have to be an incubator if they don't want too.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?






macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:47 AM

I did answer your "override" question.  See page 2.

No I wouldn't say just deal with it.  I would encourage counseling and other supportive services to deal with the trauma they are attempting to cope with.

Quoting blues_pagan:

So you would tell a rape victim who is contemplating suicide after she gives birth to just deal with it?  Or what about a victim of incest? 

This is, once again, your own personal beliefs.  And you never did answer my question as to why your beliefs override mine.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes there are complications at times.  Hell in life there are simply going to be crappy things that happen to us, but you take the good with the bad and you deal with it.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And then you deal with things such as Post Pardum Depression and many other issues that arise after pregnancy.  It is not just nine months.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

A new born can be cared for by anyone.  A father, grandparent or even an adopted/foster family.  The biological mother doesn't have to be the one to care for the baby.  But, the biological mother is the one who has to carry the pregnancy to term and go through all of the physical and emotional hardships pregnancy brings.

Quoting macbudsmom:

A new born is also dependent on it's mother.  Should she be allowed to kill her infant as well?


Quoting FromAtoZ:


Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?

That heart beating at 4 weeks cannot live without the mother.  That is key.



Again it's only 9 months. 





parentalrights1
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:47 AM
1 mom liked this
If you need someone else's body to sustain yourself then you are at that person's mercy
GLWerth
by Gina on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:48 AM
3 moms liked this

The next of kin of that brain dead individual has the CHOICE to continue to keep him or her alive by artificial means or not. You can pull the plug on those machines and people do every day.

Your religious views should not be codified into law simply because you wish it to be so.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Your uterus, your choice, my uterus, my choice.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum

 

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?


 


 


 


parentalrights1
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:49 AM
1 mom liked this
Quoting macbudsmom:


noone has the right to use another persons body for 9 months, 9 days, or 9 seconds
blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:50 AM

No, my belief has not killed an innocent child.  It killed the potential, yes.  I will admit to that.  And if your beliefs are wrong you could psychologically scar a woman for the rest of her life which could very well lead to her premature death.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Because your belief if wrong has killed an innocent child.  If my belief is wrong, a woman has only been "inconvenienced" for 9 months.

Quoting blues_pagan:

It is only murder if you believe that the fetus is a person who has certain rights.  I do not.  So why should your beliefs override mine?  

Quoting macbudsmom:

Murder is wrong no matter if it happens to someone I personally knew or a stranger down the street.

Quoting blues_pagan:

How does abortion affect you?  And don't say  "what if that baby was going to grow up and do something great" because that baby could equally become the next Manson or Dahmer.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.

macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:53 AM
1 mom liked this

If she is "scarred," then she has the ability to get counseling and help.  Once the unborn child is sucked into a sick, its over, period.

Quoting blues_pagan:

No, my belief has not killed an innocent child.  It killed the potential, yes.  I will admit to that.  And if your beliefs are wrong you could psychologically scar a woman for the rest of her life which could very well lead to her premature death.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Because your belief if wrong has killed an innocent child.  If my belief is wrong, a woman has only been "inconvenienced" for 9 months.

Quoting blues_pagan:

It is only murder if you believe that the fetus is a person who has certain rights.  I do not.  So why should your beliefs override mine?  

Quoting macbudsmom:

Murder is wrong no matter if it happens to someone I personally knew or a stranger down the street.

Quoting blues_pagan:

How does abortion affect you?  And don't say  "what if that baby was going to grow up and do something great" because that baby could equally become the next Manson or Dahmer.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?









macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Nature disagrees with  you.

Quoting parentalrights1:

Quoting macbudsmom:


noone has the right to use another persons body for 9 months, 9 days, or 9 seconds


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