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Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

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The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (51-60):
GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:54 AM


Quoting parentalrights1:

If you need someone else's body to sustain yourself then you are at that person's mercy

I don't think they heard you.

blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:54 AM

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.


macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:55 AM

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.



GoddessNDaRuff
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:56 AM

Uh Nature provides abortion inducing herbs. So hmm........Who's side is nature on again?

Quoting macbudsmom:

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.




ms-superwoman
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:58 AM
I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.
Posted on the NEW CafeMom Mobile
macbudsmom
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:59 AM

bwahaha just because an herb can induce an abortion doesn't mean thats what nature intended it for

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

Uh Nature provides abortion inducing herbs. So hmm........Who's side is nature on again?

Quoting macbudsmom:

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.





blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 11:59 AM

I can look at it from the nature perspective in that human kind has come to a point where the choices we have on what happens in our lives and bodies has progressed to the point that we can now decide when we do and don't want to be pregnant.  

We do many things in our lives to either slow the process of nature or wipe it out entirely.  Look at death by disease for instance.  Thanks to our medical advancements, we can now be thankful that the simple flu virus doesn't all by decimate certain areas.  

If you believe that the natural process should be given the most power then stop getting vaccines, stop taking medication and stop taking advantage of the many advances man kind has discovered in the past century.


Quoting macbudsmom:

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.




blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Wow, I don't think I have met someone who has stated this.  May I ask what made you change your mind?

Quoting ms-superwoman:

I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.


Peanutx3
by Ruby Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:00 PM
2 moms liked this

And if God didn't intend for it to work that way why did he make it possible?????

Quoting macbudsmom:

bwahaha just because an herb can induce an abortion doesn't mean thats what nature intended it for

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

Uh Nature provides abortion inducing herbs. So hmm........Who's side is nature on again?

Quoting macbudsmom:

lmao...  It isn't theological... look at if from the nature perspective... if God doesn't work for you leave him out of the equation... the answer remains the same.

Quoting blues_pagan:

And thank you!  So you are purely basing this arguement off of your theological beliefs!  

Not everyone believes in God (I am Pagan and I don't believe in the Judeo-Chrisitian God).  Not everyone believes the same way that you do.  Religion should stay our of legislation and out of the lives of people who do not want it there.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Quoting blues_pagan:

The point here is simple.  

If you believe that life starts with a heartbeat (even if that heartbeat has to be kept going by some type of intervention) then you have to agree that a person who has a heartbeat, regardless of how they are obtaining it, is still alive and should be kept alive as long as possible.

Quoting macbudsmom:

But the brain dead individual is being kept alive by artificial means... An unborn child is being kept alive by a natural process.  You cannot compare apples and oranges.

Quoting blues_pagan:

There is a heartbeat with people who are vegetables and hooked up to machines in hospitals.  But there is not any brain activity and that person is considered brain dead (and in some cases legally dead).  A fetus does not have a measurable EEG until 24-27 weeks.

Quoting macbudsmom:

Yes common sense what your side lacks.  There is a heartbeat, that unborn child is very much alive, its only fault is that it is dependent on its mother.  God forbid we suggest that the mother have some responsibility to care for it.

Its only 9 months of her life that she has to deal with this dependent.  If she lives to be just 72, she will still have 855 months to do with what she choses.

Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

yep it missed you. That's the whole issue with these debates, even when terms are defined from the beginning, some folks just need for there view point to be right. We can never just get to it's not your life so mind your business. Someones feelings, god, religion, book, or tradition just has to supersecede common sense. That or it's just a matter of being a control freak to an unreasonable degree.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








The unborn child is being kept alive through a natural process.  It is the way nature/God/whomever intended.  A machine is not natural at all and therefore again can not be looked at in the same way.

If nature/God/whomever decides that the brain dead indivdual can no longer sustain itself naturally, then so be it.






momsince1989
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:00 PM
1 mom liked this

 I don't think anyone should be worried about what a woman does in her private life and our medical records shouldn't be up for discussion.

I seriously wish the Viagra bill would've gained some traction....we should look into reviving that if the right keeps this crap up!

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