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Abortion debate...yep I said it...Abortion Debate

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The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 9:38 AM
Replies (61-70):
EireLass
by Ruby Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Whether they choose to admit it out loud or not, is usually due to fear of their friends, family, etc, reactions.

EVERYONE is Pro-choice. I'm quite sure they are picking their own OB/GYN. I'm quite sure they've pick their mode of birth control, or none at all. I'm quite sure they've decided they wanted kids or not. I'm pretty sure they've decided if they want to birth in a hospital or not. And the list goes on.

Quoting lga1965:

Exactly...why do they not know that?
It annoys me.
I am pro CHOICE for everyone ....pro life for me unless my life was in danger.
CHOICE is the important word.


Quoting EireLass:

Do you know that Pro-Choice does not mean pro-abortion?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?



NWP
by guerrilla girl on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:03 PM
2 moms liked this

The "heartbeat" definition is what cost that woman in Ireland her life.

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?


New World Peace

EireLass
by Ruby Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:06 PM

The day you started making your own choices regarding your own body was when you became pro-choice.

Quoting ms-superwoman:

I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.


ms-superwoman
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:07 PM
4 moms liked this
Mostly because I was young and thought I knew everything. Lol I never looked at it from anyone's side but mine. When I finally opened my eyes! I realized that while I personally wouldn't do it. My views are not everyone else's. My views don't override anyone else's. Every culture, every religion is different. And my views in no way effect anyone else.

Quoting blues_pagan:

Wow, I don't think I have met someone who has stated this.  May I ask what made you change your mind?

Quoting ms-superwoman:

I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.


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jlo1313
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:08 PM
3 moms liked this

At what cost is this 9 month "inconvenience"?  For some women, especially in my field, it is their career.  Also their physical and mental health.  There is a great deal of financial obligation that comes with a healthy pregnancy, labor and delivery.  Getting pregnant is hardly free.  Then there are relationships that are destroyed because so many people are on their high horse with judgement. 

A 9 month inconvenience is life destroying for many women. 

If we took the mental attachment to people and "what ifs" (meaning what if this person we aborted was the next Einstein" and we take religious views out of the picture, what are we left with.  We are left with the fact that a POSSIBLE human is removed from its host.  Plain and simple.  Babies die during birth, modern medicine helps that out, but it still happens.  Infants and children die from disease or inadequate development and from unknown causes prior to becoming "anyone".

Without abortion being legal, women will end pregnancies in other ways that are far more lethal and harmful to them, child abuse and child neglect cases are going to fill the  court system and prisons, states will be responsible for thousands more than they can handle in already overloaded systems, consequences of the abuse, neglect, poor parenting are going to continue to overload our system and burden society.  We already see too much evidence of that today because of religious views and stigma and public shaming. 

You are free to choose what is right for you morally, but why do you have to convey that upon others, shame them for it, add to the growing problems we already have in our country?  I feel unless you have the "cure-all solution" and are willing to stand up with a cost effective answer for society, its best to just side on the pro-choice, choose your own rights and wrongs and let other people choose what is best for them and keep your judgements private and personal thoughts.  (General pro-life you...not you directly). 

Adoption is not the answer, government systems are not the answer, Mother Teresa couldn't save all the orphans and abused children, so churches aren't the answer.  Why can't choice without fear be the answer for some?

Quoting macbudsmom:

Because your belief if wrong has killed an innocent child.  If my belief is wrong, a woman has only been "inconvenienced" for 9 months.

Quoting blues_pagan:

It is only murder if you believe that the fetus is a person who has certain rights.  I do not.  So why should your beliefs override mine?  

Quoting macbudsmom:

Murder is wrong no matter if it happens to someone I personally knew or a stranger down the street.

Quoting blues_pagan:

How does abortion affect you?  And don't say  "what if that baby was going to grow up and do something great" because that baby could equally become the next Manson or Dahmer.

Quoting macbudsmom:

lol - if you lived in a vacuum


Quoting GoddessNDaRuff:

You missed that whole your theological, moral stance and opinions should only effect you and not other people who may or may not agree with them and that you should make the choice you feel is best for you while others do the same for them part, didn't you?

Quoting macbudsmom:

I believe that abortion is wrong in all circumstances unless carrying the pregnancy to term could result in death.

What I dont understand is how do the pro-choicers not consider the growing child a life when by the 4th week from conception it already has a beating heart?  I believe life starts at conception, but for those who don't why don't you at least accept the heart beat as proof of life?








EireLass
by Ruby Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:08 PM
1 mom liked this

You became Pro-choice when you decided what birth control you'd use, or what doctor you'd go to, or if you'd like kids or not. Pro-Choice is not pro-abortion.

Quoting ms-superwoman:

Mostly because I was young and thought I knew everything. Lol I never looked at it from anyone's side but mine. When I finally opened my eyes! I realized that while I personally wouldn't do it. My views are not everyone else's. My views don't override anyone else's. Every culture, every religion is different. And my views in no way effect anyone else.
Quoting blues_pagan:

Wow, I don't think I have met someone who has stated this.  May I ask what made you change your mind?

Quoting ms-superwoman:

I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.
12hellokitty
by Platinum Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:08 PM
1 mom liked this

 

Quoting blues_pagan:

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 

blues_pagan
by on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM

On the side of caution for what?  

Quoting 12hellokitty:


Quoting blues_pagan:

The idea that there is a war on "unborn children" is completely and utterly ridiculous.  Want to know why?

Here

http://www.sinauer.com/pdf/BioethicsCh02.pdf

or let me just summarize it for you.

Our basic idea in the US about when life begins is largely based on our own theological view of the world.  Being a predominately Christian nation that means that for many, they believe life starts at conception.  But, here is the thing, not everyone believes that way.  In some cultures still going today they believe that a fetus/baby is not a person until they utter their first cry, take their first breath, are named, can speak the language or until a year of age.  Now, this does not by any means imply that I support post birth abortion but it does add some interesting perspective on beliefs and how they affect our view of the world.

Science, which is a much more tangible and reliable arguement than the theological view point, is not even in agreeance with when life beings.  There are 4 different definitions of when life begins.  

Fertilization:  this is the idea that life begins at conception

Embryologic: around day 14 when the fetus has it's own set DNA

Neurological:  when the acquisition of brain wave patterns or EEG.  This is also used to determine when someone dies and is the one that I agree with the most.  This is usually between 24-27 weeks which coincides with many laws on when abortion is no longer acceptable.

At or near birth:  The basic idea that you become human when you can survive on your own. 

So even science disagrees when it comes to this arguement.

With all of that said, why is it that when it comes to this discussion so many want to impose your beliefs on others regardless if that person shares that belief or not.  Until science can agree with when life begins I think that it is safe to say that what one woman does in her life and with her body has no direct impact on your life and should therefore be left for her to handle.  

If their isn't agreement within science on when life begins THE ONLY HUMAN OPTION IS TO ERROR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION in that life begins at conception. 


NWP
by guerrilla girl on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM
1 mom liked this

It amazes me that the science deniers try to use science (erroneously) as an excuse for being anti-choice.

jlo1313
by Silver Member on Nov. 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM
2 moms liked this

I used to think I was pro-life, the more I dug into the choices I had made, I realized that I was pro-choice all along. 

Quoting ms-superwoman:

I used to be pro-life but (for basically the reasons above) I am now pro-choice.


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